Hey all…
I was thinking of ordering 8 of these brackets for a house I’m building. It’s the one on the top row right that is item # BKT12x12.
It says “high density polyurethane”. So, what is that like…? Is if fairly tough plastic, or is it some kind of flimsy foam type product that you could break with one hand. Is it like Azek or what? Wouldn’t want to order 8 at the tune of around $300 only to find out there are flimsy junk, not to mention that I need to get this house done…
The only Fypon type stuff I’ve installed were some window garage door headers (cross-heads?) (pediments?) and the stuff was more like a foam. I wasn’t that impressed.
I don’t need them to be real strong, but I don’t want something that you have to be careful with when installing so it doesn’t get broken… And obviously I want something that will last for years in the weather… And BTW – will paint stick OK?
Who has used these?
Edited 7/17/2008 8:44 pm ET by Matt
Replies
That particular one looks like decorative and not structural. Fypon does indicate which of their brackets are structural and have re-inforcing.
I use a lot of Fypon and am happy with it. Very paintable and any nicks can be repaired/filled with bondo easily. The density is just shy of white pine but no possibility of rot.
It comes with two coats of latex primer.
I used some of the bkt1616 for an entry cover support. I would not hesitate to climb on that cover and jump on it.
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Thanks Piff...
Actually, now that you mention it.... I've used some of those BKT16x16 too. They were so high up in the gable and I didn't even (obviously) give strength a second thought. They are more "beefy" than these other ones I'm looking at now... The 12X12s I was thinking of using at the porch post/porch beam intersection and theoretically some one could reach their hand up there and... well, I don't know what... Maybe nothing worth worrying about...
I don't worry about jerk-offs using something for other than it was intended. Natural selection has to be given opportunity
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density is just shy of white pine
tee hee hee
you very generous, grasshoppa
carpenter in transition
I think he is right that different items have different densities.
what I meant was that the structural rated pieces have re-inforcing in the middle of it. I can imagine that the thin trim moldings might possibly be less dense, but based on what i saw at the fatory, I doubt it. seems like it all came out of the same pipe/pump/nozzle system.Most of what use fromn them is railings. just as easy to chip or dent a red cedar or a pine rail.
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The Fypon directions say use a urethane based adhesive. Does that mean like PL400? Are there any readily available urethane based adhesives that are clear?
I wonder if OSI Quad is a urethane? The only thing I see on the tube is "elastomeric". It also says don't use it on polystyrene foam. Fypon is urethane foam - I guess that is different?
Matt, I've had good luck with PL400 and Fypon. Looks like just a dab with those particular brackets... too much, or careless placement... well, you know how much that stuff oozes, especially when it's humid<G> Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Is Fypon finehomebuilding LOL? If it is, then so is vinyl siding! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
I say yes it is Jim. It looks and works just like wood but who wants to replace rotten wood every ten years? The Fypon is finer in a lot of respects.Most owners can tell the dif between vinyl siding and wood clapboards, but I haven't found one yet who does not like the look and texture of the fypon.Even had a tree come down on one section of Fypon railing last winter. structurally it was fine - just had to build up where a chunk got ripped off of the urethene surface, and repaint. I can't gaurantee it, but my opinion is that if I'd built that one from red cedar or fir or pine, it would have splintered way back in the rail and might have been cause for rebuilding that section.I was leery about the stuff before starting to use it which is why I went to the factory to see it all. Have you ever seen the stuff for real or just taking pot shots from the galley?
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I am glad this product came under discussion.
I am looking at it and a couple of other manufactured products for ext. trim on the job I am waiting to start.
Big concern is weathering and ability to hold paint and look good long term.
Couldn't find anybody local who had used it for long enough to have a feel for that issue.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
We get extreme weather here and absolutely NO problems holding paint.A couple of the things that cause paint failures simply cannot happen with Fypon. #1 it does not take on water - closed cell poly.#2 no checking or swelling/shrinkage.The only movement is consistent predictable thermal expansion
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I am taking potshots from the gallery but I have seen and installed the stuff. I have no objection to it but I'm not really a good judge because I have no objection to someone who is thrilled to have a vinyl sided house. If wood is rotting every ten years, there obviously is a defect in the exterior skin (paint and caulk) which is designed to protect the wood from the elements. Wood will outlive every one of us if properly installed, painted, caulked and maintained so I don't think that particular point is valid although I do acknowldege that many people don't understand how to properly seal and maintain wood products. So, if Fypon is finehomebuiding, what would you call someone who is installing the same detailing in real wood or stone? Finerhomebuilding? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
maybe FinestHB."Wood will outlive every one of us if properly installed, painted, caulked and maintained so I don't think that particular point is valid although I do acknowldege that many people don't understand how to properly seal and maintain wood products."In theory that is true, And two years ago i would have agreed with you, but this year, I have spent a tremendous amt of time repairing rot in trim that is less than ten years old. Maybe you can tell me what the secret is for 'properly' sealing and painting.I have been end sealing and backpriming etc. but I think that the biggest problem is the fact we cannot use oil paint anymore. ( I have gone to mixing my own primer stuff for two coats now) Every place I have found this situation is where snow drifts up and remains against the wood all winter, like near the base of a door casing, or the risers on steps.One railing I replaced with Fypon was on a nice home where the owners had had a new rail built less than ten years before. The lady was VERY specific that she would not use the previous bnuilder again ever and she wanted me to take a good look at the old railing to see what had he domne wrong to cause it to rot out so fast.Well, he had backprimed everything and built the newels with air gaps to vent and held the trim portion up off the deck half an inch...everything I would have done, but there was some rot on the top rails and the newels were totally gone! BUt it was latex paint and it was a deck in the lee of the roof where snow tended to drift in and remain.It is something I am getting tired off, all this rot, but I don't think it comes down to methods. It is more related to moisture and paint quality AFAIK
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I picked up some PL premium Poluerathane adhesive at Lowes on the way home. I figured urethane and poluethane were the same things but just wanted to verify. I think it was ~$4.50 for the 10 oz tube.
Regarding Fypon, fine home building, and all that, I totally agree, although I don't know if it is the paint or not with the wood rot. During the little bit of time I did work for HOs, I saw lots of rotten wood. The kicker is that rarely have I seen a house that is properly maintained. Maybe it also has something to do with the fast growth "farmed" lumber we are getting these days.
With the way people live these days they are just not gonna spend a lot of time and/or money on exterior maintenance. The exterior is just something that keeps them dry and is something they walk by on the way from their driveway to the interior and their computers, video games, TV and entertaining. I'm the same way. That is why I built a home for DW and I that has a very low maintenance exterior. The only thing that is painted is the doors and the dront porch columns. OK - the windows are K&K and have some kind of baked on factory finish. Hope it is good as they say...
IMO, it would be an extreme dis-service to my customers to use a lot of wood on the exteriors of their home, regardless of how well it is caulked and painted. I make every effort to use very little wood on the exteriors of homes, and if I do, it is treated in some way. I have great hopes for this new treated wood CA-C which I get locally in the brand name of DuraPine. Right now I'm building some that are getting the CA-C for the front and back porch railings.
Just my opinion though. I know some people love wood. It's also a style thing too. Here, you rarely see those unpainted cedar (or whatever) exteriors you see out west. I guess a lot of them are stained...
I pay about $4.10 to $4.25 now,but buy a case at a time. That earlier mentioned number was what it was back then. I sell it for six bucksyou are right about maint.
Wood is the prevailing choice around here for whatever reason. your humid warm climate has probably forced more people to learn to use more masonry and other materials.
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Ya, I was actually talking about PL Premium... the stuff that foams. We usually try to screw Fypon with a trim head torx drive exterior screw. They have a slightly bigger head than the stainless trim heads I can get. PL urethane can push things apart.We put some Fypon brackets up with PL that the HO thought they'd like to take down... no fugging way.And, I think using Fypon in an application where it can't get beat up, and it will be painted is of the finest homebuilding right now... use the technology to beat the rot, hold the paint, fool the eye...Another thing, everything I've dealt with that came thru Outwater has been top notch. I think plastic is superior in a lot of apps. Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Where do you get those trim head torx drive exterior screws you are refering to?
I get them at Fitch's... can't remember the brand offhand, but I may have a box around. GRK makes some, I know. Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Well, first, I will concede that there probably are places that wood should not be used and probably is anyways. So, the first rule is to be careful where you use wood. Perhaps Fypon is the right choice in those situations. But getting back to the question; what's the secret? I've stated it several times over the years but most people dismiss it. The key to protecting wood is to give the exterior a proper thickness skin. Latex works perfectly for this. THEN, CAULK OVER THE SKIN! Most of ya'll will tell me I'm backward but I'm just relaying what I've seen work in MI for the last three decades. Then, the next important key is to not create any shelfs that will hold water. Everything exposed must be sloped like a sill. So, when I hear you talking about rails, my mind's eye picturse the many rail systems I've seen that have level parts on them. Then, when talking about exterior rails I think about the many, many, many that I wouldn't build because they are water traps. Are their balusters tying into level rails? Is 1/2" clearance enough beneath a rail and deck? My answer is no to either situation in certain conditions. Here in TX it is dry as a bone and it might not matter as much. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07 Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"w
Edited 8/16/2008 7:01 pm by Jim_Allen
I do build all my rails with sloped tops.But I will vehemently disagree about latex being good for this.Latex will allow the passage of water through it. That is great when there is moisture caught behind the siding, but terrible when a bank of snow is keeping the surface wet.
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>> I do build all my rails with sloped tops. <<
I assume you mean machine some kind of crown into the board? If so do you route them or do something on the table saw? Or are you saying that you install the boards tilted in some way?
I use the planer for most. I have a gig that is a seat for the bed of the thickness planner. so when a board is running through, it is tilted up at 11° . I then turn the board around and run the other edge. Takes about 6-8 passes to get a double pitched top meeting at center, but my benchtop planner only takes so much off. I could probably make the same gig for the W&H and do it in two passes, or have knives cut for it to do in one pass.
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My hats are off to you Piffin. Functional details such as what you are doing is usually missing from most "finehomebuilding". They do put a lot of simpson ties on though LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Quote of the day: "...can't be done, it will take too long, not enough pipeline capacity, yada yada but yet they don't apply the same skepticism to their own "solutions" such as wind and biofuels"
thanks. I'm a conglomeration of what I have learned byu taking things apart and analyzing what didn't work; reading here and there; and the standards of those whose work I have admired over the years. Fortunately, there are some high standards in some of the homes I have renovated here from the past, giving me more to learn from and a higher standard to live up to.
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That sounds like the way to do it. I don't have any kind of shop though or anything to put in it other than portable tools.
Shop?Nine times out of ten, my job has been big enough to set up shop right on site. Saves time running back and forth and Ican be there to meet sub, supervise things, and do millwork same place same time. Here are some set up on site. The job before that had a large basement space that I commandeered as a shop.Cabinets do get built in a normal shop space though.
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What the hell Piffin, you painting hearts on all your tools? or just your favorite ones.
Doug
LOL, I was telling somebody I love my work as I happened to be ready to clean out a paint brush. Sometimes I talk with my hands too! That 1/32 of Italian comes out in me.
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Matt, The PL 400is a regular const adhesive. PL Premium is a polyurethene based. Before I started using this stuff, I stopped in to visit the factory to check it all out for a day.Spent time walking through both plants they had then and having lunch with the VP of sales and marketing, then on to spend time with the gals they had in the pre-assembly unit. ( at the time, you could have Fypon do things like angled rails for steps and curved stuff preassembled if you had accurate detail drawings and wanted to spend a lot of bucks)They were selling their own labled adhesive for about $7.25 a 11oz tube. Full case lots only. IO asked what kind could i use if I ran out by half a tube or whatever and couldn't wait for delivery from PA.She told me the label was all they made. The actual adhesive was PL Premium, which I could buy here for something like $2.95 at the time.
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hey, it is in the book, and I don't find it different when using it. Maybe you get better white pine
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