Today we started cutting rafters for a 6-12 roof. The main roof is all 24′ 2x12s. We set up 48 rafters (commons) on the racks and cut them. Here are a few pics.
We put a new chain on the chainsaw and it just ate through the rafter stock like nothing. There are a couple of pics of the Bosch Bigfoot 10″ and the Bosch BigBoy 14″ saw. The 14″ saw is going back to BigFoot. This is the second time we’ve used it and when we went to adjust it square, it doesn’t go to 0. It isn’t right from the factory. It’s a nice saw though
In the second picture, you can see I am starting to get a bald spot. Good thing looks don’t matter to my wife hahahaha
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Replies
The idea of gang cutting has always fascinated me. Thanks for the pix
what I would like to see is a couple of pix of the rafters nailed to the ridge, it seems like there is a big chance for slop with the chainsaw.
Also, where did you get the foot for the stihl. that is a nice setup.
I have an old prazi beam cutter laying around somewhere, but the power of the old skil just isn't there.
Mike
Edited 1/26/2005 8:14 pm ET by mike
Mike,
I'll take some pics tomorrow. When we first started doing this, we did get a little slop. A nice sharp chain helps a lot. If you notice in the one pic, there is a 2x4 nailed at the same angle as the plumbcut. That is there so we can set the angle on the Headcutter. Big Foot tools (http://www.bigfoottools.com) makes it. It works really well. The flatter pitches are a lot easier on the saw.
The Headcutter is worth buying even if you don't gang cut rafters. You can use it on beams, gang cutting joists (dimensional and I-joists), etc.
Thanks for the commments.
Mike,
Here are a couple of pics of the commons at the ridge.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6440753/82936716.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6440753/82936667.jpg
Baileys Logging Supply sells a special chain for cutting openings in log bldgs and post n beams which makes a lot cleaner cuts for exposed areas.
What kind of chain is that? Will Holladay recommends a skip tooth, but it didn't work as well as what I've got. I forget the exact Stihl chain. I'll check.
That looks nice at the ridge.
All I need now is the right roof to try it out. Most of our work is 12/12's hips and valleys everywhere, not to many commons.
By the way, I rented a 16" makita circ saw today. going to try it out tomorrow. not for gang cutting though. That's a different story.
Thanks for the pix
mike
I own a Milita 16 inch saw and use it all of the time on my timberframe,
couple of points. The stock blade is junk, it won't stay sharp for more than a day (cutting white Oak) I switched to a carbide blade and it stays sharp for well over a week of steady cutting on white oak timbers as big as 12x12
The blade guard needs help or you'll swear that the saw can't cut foam.. Pull it up as you saw.. cleaning adjusting and even oiling did nothing for the guard. Just reach over and pull it up as you start the cut..
Hold on to the saw when you first start it, it kicks like a mule! but once up to speed can easily be guided with one hand should you need to..
Extension cords!
Make darn sure that you have a 10 gauge cord, 12 gauge isn't heavy enough! you are sucking a lot of amperage with the saw.. Use a 12 gauge and plan on frequent replacement of brushes, anything less will proably blow the circuit breakers..
The saw runs at half the speed you'd expect it to. and you'll swear that it'll stop just as soon as the blade touches the wood, it doesn't and it's fasinating to see that dust shoot just stream wood sawdust out and set it in a pile..
The saw has plenty of power, I'm able to make 20 foot long rips full depth into oak beams and as long as I'm reasonable about the speed I saw at things go just fine.. (I repeat, make sure you use a 10 gauge extension cord!!!)
The reason it's going so slow relative to your traditional 7 1/4 blade is that even at the much slower speed the tooth speed is fast enough..
Frenchy,
Did they up the amps on that motor? I seem to recall that the newer ones have a beefier motor. I know with our Big Foot saws, we use a 10 guage (sometimes 8 guage) cord and we have a "power box" the electrician built that boost the voltage. Yesterday plugged the saw directly into that and it seemed that the saw had more power. I'm not an electrician, so it could just be my imagination.
Hey when are you going to respond to the email I sent about forklifts? :-) I'm sure you are busy. I'd have loved to see some of the wood you were cutting with that Makita.
How'd that Makita work out? Our trim guy has one in his garage, but told us it's not real powerful. He did a timber style house years ago and said it worked pretty well.
I have both the Bosch and Milwaukee Big Boy saws (14")http://www.bigfoottools.com/fourteenInch.html Both motors spin the blade pretty fast, but the Milwuakee has some wobble to it. I used the Milwuakee to make the plumb portion of the birdsmouth today it worked great. It's tough when you get past 45°.
We had wall panels sent out for an english basement.
GC says oops... concrete is to low, we need to take down the walls, add 14" of height to the conc. then cut down the walls and start over.
Ok no prob. now, how to cut 14" off the sheathed 2x6 walls as efficiently as possible
Rent a 16" circ, burn right through the sheathing and studs in one pass. clean up the bottom plates and re-apply
I didn't get to use the saw, I was inside trimming today. but my carpenter said it worked awesome. seem to run slow but had no problems. Then he asks " can we buy one?"
I'll just rent one for $47 a day when needed
mike
Hey Tim, in all this time I've 'known' you, I never asked...how did you go about asking the boss for all those saws? I mean,did you go to him and say"get us so and so chain-saw because I wanta try gangcutting". Was he skeptical at first?
By the way, I didn't notice that shiny spot on top your head.lol
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Tiz,
Technically it isn't a bald spot. I have two "starts" close together. Or something like that. . . . .
How did I get the saws? We've had an old company Husqvarna chainsaw. A few years ago, I told him that if we had the Headcutter, we could gang cut joists and rafters. We tried it with rafters, but I just didn't know enough about roofs to make it work. We were at a JLC show in Las Vegas and saw the Bigfoot adapter. I don't recal how much it was, but he thought it would be a good idea to buy one and put it on a saw because then we could cut 4x in one pass. It worked really well.
From there as we got a little faster, he would let me add tools. He won't let me buy something, unless I pitch the idea and eplain how I'm going to use it and why I think it would be a good purchase.
For instance, we have one plan that we keep building that has the upper floor roof start on 5' walls. Every wall upstairs gets framed to the rafters. Our electrician had one of those laser plumb bobs that he would use to project light layout from the ground to the ceiling. He let us borrow it one day and it wasn't accurate enough to use for walls, but it was obvious that a laser would be so much faster than a plumb bob. As Jasen says, "orders of magnitude". I told him that for that plan it would drastically reduce the time to layout. He told me to do the research and we bought the PLS 5. Haven't regretted it. The first time we built that house, using a plumb bob it took 3 days to get the upstairs all framed. Some of the ceilings were way high up there. Now we do it in one day and all the walls are perfectly plumb. I could go on and on about that laser. We do a lot of vaulted work and the laser makes us money every time we use it in those applications.
That is the same house that I talked about in my post to Jerrald. We basically build that house in 1/2 the time we did 2 years ago.
My boss (father) knows that good tools make for better work and often times faster work. When he started this business in the late 70's, he framed and did the books. So he knows when I'm BSing him about a tool. Plus I would feel bad if we got a tool that didn't do anything to help and to be honest I would pay for it then.
How is life for you right now? I think the last I heard, you had short weeks because of the weather. I hope it's better for you.
Tim this may seem like a flippant question at first but I can assure you its not.
I'm wondering what is your (or anybody else's for that matter) rational for making the decision to gang cut rafters as opposed to cutting them singly.
"In the second picture, you can see I am starting to get a bald spot."
Yup, it does look like you are loosing a little hair there. I think I had a bald spot on the crown of my head probably for years before I ever noticed it. I had just installed a medicine cabinet in a wall and was opening and closing the mirrored door when I saw a white patch on the top of my head reflecting in the mirrored wall behind me. I thought it was just just sheetrock dust at first and when I went to wipe it off I found myself saying "that's not sheetrock dust,.. that's nothing". Had me a little worried at the time but it's now twenty years later and I still can't see that bald spot so at least I'm happy.
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Edited 1/27/2005 8:58 pm ET by Jerrald Hayes
Jerrald,
We used to use patterns for all our rafters. If it was a set of common rafters, then we'd cut one common and use it to trace the others. A guy at each end with the saw and we'd get it cut fairly quick. If it was a hip roof, I'd make a pattern of the tail and birdsmouth and use that. It works well. We did a 12-12 roof about a month ago and the material was all 2x12. That exceeded the capacity of the saw, so we used the method above and it goes pretty well.
A couple of roof cutters (John Harmon http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/41f99f6f0022f94327177f00000105db/Product/View/0409gang and a roof cutter Pete from Maui) talked a lot about it at Joe Fusco's forum. They sent me pictures and emails and we finally decided to give it a shot. Will Holladay http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.filereader?41f99f6f0022f94327177f00000105db+EN/products/RC102 cuts his roofs that way and I have his video.
Yesterday it took Jasen and I maybe 30 minutes to rack 48 24' 2x12s, lay them out and cut them. There is no way that someone could do that using a pattern. The benefit of racking and cutting them too is that you get as close to identical rafters as is really possible. The roof ends up really nice and flat.
Picture this: if I make the head (or ridge or plumb) cut on each rafter that would be 48 individual cuts. For the birdsmouth there are 2 more cuts. Figure 3 individual cuts for each rafter. That is 144 cuts total.
For gang cutting, there are 3 cuts total, but you make them for 48 rafters at once. That is a total of 3 cuts.
Also you only handle the material once. We have forklift, so we set the rafters on the racks and then put them on edge. Lay them out and then cut them. Grab them with the forklift and your done. If I used a pattern I would have to handle the pattern alone 48 times including the inititial layout, then I would have to handle the other 47 rafters once each at least. These rafters are 24' long stock 2x12, that is a lot of material handling.
2004 was the first year we tried gang cutting. Using this technique our avg time to cut and stack a roof was about 1/2 to 2/3s the previous. My framing crew doubled our volume last year. Gang cutting is responsible for a lot of that. Gang cutting also has forced me to organzie differently. I think it's made for a more efficient crew. Often I layout and cut the roof by myself and then assign the other guys jobs while that is being done. It's just worked out really well.
Sorry for being long winded :-) I do appreciate you asking.
TIMUHLER- "Sorry for being long winded :-)"
Nah don't worry about that. The kind of answer you gave me there is really the kind of thorough answer I was looking for. As for being "long winded", have you ever read any of my posts?
"A couple of roof cutters (John Harmon ... and a roof cutter Pete from Maui) talked a lot about it at Joe Fusco's forum." Yes and I followed all that discussion there and read John Harmons JLC article on it too. I'm not, and my carpentry company doesn't generally frame, but I also do consulting with other companies on productivity issues (drum-buffer-rope, synchronous flow, and lean production) so I am always looking at production in those terms and found the discussion interesting. However I guess I should say it here and now that I really don't think the production gains are nearly as great as most carpenters think they are if they really exist at all! That's not to say that there are some conditions where such a batch and cue operation is efficient but often they are not at all as efficient as we would think they are.
"Yesterday it took Jasen and I maybe 30 minutes to rack 48 24' 2x12s, lay them out and cut them. There is no way that someone could do that using a pattern.
Did that approximate 30 minute figure include all the set up related to the process or just laying them out on the rack. In other words how long did it take to set up the rack? Does it always take that time or does it vary with respect to the terrain or platform it's set up on? And how do you choose where to set up the rack? Another thing to consider is while it may or may not be efficient for cutting a batch of 48 rafters is it efficient (when take into consideration all the set up time) for a 12 rafter batch? There probably is a point where cutting in process/production line operation is the more efficient operation.
And if thinking about all that isn't enough as I've gotten older and began to really study and more formally learn about production and productivity I learned that most of the time that can be classified as wasted time and inefficiency occurs not in the actual task itself but in between the tasks! The reality is we don't make our companies faster and more efficient by finding ways to work faster or get the task done faster but in removing the waste in between tasks by designing our operations so that they can achieve continuous flow. It's even entirely possible that one person cutting rafters one at a time while working with two carpenters installing them in a Just-In-Time operation is more efficient that a gang cutting batch operation. (In fact while I don't have the statistical data or recent experience with regard to framing to prove that I have a hunch from the other operations where we have moved to smaller batch sizes that the JIT process probably is the better process.)
"The benefit of racking and cutting them too is that you get as close to identical rafters as is really possible. The roof ends up really nice and flat. "
Now that is the reason I would consider using the batch method John Harmon wrote about. Precision, not the speed (since like I've said I really have my doubts about any throughput speed gains). If the gang cutting process is a better guarantee regarding precision then I think I'd be for it (precision reduces rework which costs time). I'm hoping this winter to acquire some framing carpenters so I can take my company back into framing and since I'm so interested in looking at processes you can bet we'll be looking at and comparing the methods.
"2004 was the first year we tried gang cutting. Using this technique our avg time to cut and stack a roof was about 1/2 to 2/3s the previous. My framing crew doubled our volume last year. Gang cutting is responsible for a lot of that."
Are you saying that anecdotally based on your visual observations or are you keeping real data on production? I'm not doubting or questioning your increase in volume but it may in reality be actually due to other factors. I had/have a consulting client who builds outdoor structures, decks, fences, and other outdoor carpentry and when we used to talk he used to always complain about how bad weather absolutely destroyed productivity. He was thinking along the lines of 25% to 50% losses in production which I thought was crazy so we studied it for a summer to see what really happened. Ya know what we found?
Bad weather didn't hurt productivity at all and in some cases it actually improved it. As it turned out when the weather turned bad and it would fog or rain lightly the crews seemed to bear down and work with more efficiency up until the point the rain would actually stop work. Rain it turns out improved productivity up until the point it rained so hard that work had to stop. It effected the calendar, it effected the schedule but not the actual task work productivity. I know the fastest (and the last roof) I ever worked on personally myself we did in week we had of 0° to 5° weather years ago (that was shingling not framing mind you). While I am sure bad or tough weather does hurt task productivity for certain tasks (I would think framing in 0° to 5° weather would be hurt) my point is it's not categorically true for all tasks and all kinds of bad weather and it also not nearly as negative as we think it is.
Unless the task of cutting rafters was the constraint or bottleneck in all of your companies process (meaning the one thing that limited your companies overall production throughput) I would think your gains can probably be better attributed to your directing all the processes and achieving continuous flow rather than improvements in just one task. I'm making that assumption from what your saying "Often I layout and cut the roof by myself and then assign the other guys jobs while that is being done." hints at better supervision.
There is a saying that goes around in productivity consulting circles "An hour lost at a Bottleneck is an hour lost for the entire system. The Bottleneck determines the factory capacity. To lose time there loses throughput. An hour saved at a non-Bottleneck is a mirage". The only thing you really need to or should be working on improving is the bottleneck activity in your production process. And what happens is when you do improve that bottleneck or constraint activity to the point where is no longer the bottleneck and new one appears somewhere else in the system and you then go to work on that one. Running an operation is a process of continuing improvement.
How's that for being long winded?
I'll want to talk to you and hopefully other framers too about this some more in the future but right now writing all this is diverting me from working on one of the bottleneck activities in our company which is right now getting estimates and proposals out so I guess that's it for me tonight. In the meantime keep cuttin, talkin and posting photos. It's all very interesting to see and hear what carpenters are doing and thinking.
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I used to have a system going that I thought was real efficient. I started a thread on it awhile ago, to see if anyone else was doing it. But no one seemed to be doing it, or interested in trying. And then it got sidetracked by a debate about lowering the seat cut on hips, and I eventually dropped out.Anyway, after many repetitive roofs, very similar in nature (cut & stack, 3000 - 5000 sq. ft. houses, 5:12 pitch, cut-up with hips and valleys, sq.-cut fascia with ripped tails, etc.), I finally got a system that worked well.I started cutting my roof almost on day 1 (right after I snapped lines and did the layout). Guys would come out and shake their heads, and tell me I had the cart before the horse. But I could cut the entire roof ahead of time, while the crew framed away. I'd holler for a helper if I needed one, but for most of the stuff I didn't. And the beauty of it was, the roof was ready to go when the house was ready for the roof. And the stacking went real quick, with everything pre-cut.I did rack all my rafters, and gang-cut the plumb-cut on the seat, and the bottom of the plumb-cut at the ridge (I only had a skilsaw, so I couldn't complete the cut). After ganging the rafters and packing them tight, I'd snap lines and cut. Then I'd roll them over, and finish the cuts individually. With jack rafters, I'd try to get two per board, a long and a short. I'd transfer the jacks from the rack to my horses, and I set up the horses like the current video download on FHB - meaning where the horses are centered on the two pieces that will result from the cut, and as you stand between and cut, you lift and pull just a little as you complete the cut, to avoid binding the blade. (When gang cutting, I found it best to have the supporting rack directly under the cuts, like Tim is doing in the pics.)I'd build little "packages" of rafters for each "quadrant" (my term for one side of a hip corner), and each section of commons, etc. So I'd have the ridges, hips, and valleys, and then all these stacks of "packaged" rafters. The mental gymnastics gets a little easier when you work little sections at a time, like that.On stack day, I'd just direct what went where, and the sequence of erecting the thing. It was really quick, once the crew and I got used to working the system. It was awesome to see a big, cut-up roof come together in about a day.I'm just reminiscing, because I haven't done one in years. But I still fantasize about getting back into roof-cutting, because it was one of the most satisfying facets of my construction career. Hope I haven't beat this dead horse too much! Just find the subject engrossing. Thanks Tim for the great pics, by way!
Huck,
You do things very similar to me. I would love to see some pics. I like to post pics just to start discussions. I always end up learning something.
I know what you mean about the hip drop thread :-)
thanks, I do have some pics around, but haven't located them yet. I'll try to take a pic of the photos, to share, if I find them (this was in the days before digital pics).I should have added: one of the reasons I got into pre-cutting the roofs like that was that the way we did it originally, with me starting to cut the roof once the house was already framed, we had an inefficent loggerhead. I mean, the crew could stack way faster than I could cut (picture three guys standing on the plate, while one guy cuts and hands up jack rafters, scratching his head and punching his calculator between cuts!). And that I think is the benefit of the gang-cutting system: its not that its so much faster for the cutter. It might not produce a HUGE improvement in cutting speed, but that speed comes at a critical time - so its really that its faster for the crew. Picture this: a baseball player has a system that makes him hit just a LITTLE further, or run just a LITTLE faster - is it worth to him? Sure, but imagine how much more important it is to the team, if he's the clean-up hitter, and those improvements come at a critical time, when the team is really counting on him to come through for them. The roof-cutter is the clean-up hitter, in a very real sense. Typically, the roof tends to get cut once the walls and joists are run. There may be some soffits or coffers to frame, arches, etc. - but most of the wham-bam production stuff is completed at that point. So you need the roof pronto, to keep the wham-bam guys in motion. It is somewhat of an intangible benefit - a morale thing. I watched a lot of framing jobs lose momentum when they got to the complex roof. And once the roof was finally stacked out, it was hard to get that momentum back. But if you can have the roof ready the minute the joists are run, the guys are excited. The visible progress is a tremendous morale builder, which is critical if you have a crew on payroll.And I don't know if anyone has really explored this, but when you're using a system that is a little out of the ordinary, it really builds team pride: "our system is better than those other crews!" Thats a confidence builder. Tell me: Your crew has a stronger sense of team-pride and confidence since you've gone to gang-cutting with your specialized saws - am I right? My experience was that even the lumber-humpers and grunts feel like they're part of something special. I mean, you're excited about it, by virtue of the fact that you're taking pics, posting pics, writing about it. Even that fact - you, the roof-cutter's excitement, will affect the crew. It rubs off. Are you the contractor, the foreman, the lead-framer? Building excitement for the project is the mark of a good leader.So I don't think the benefits of the gang-cutting system can be measured strictly in terms of efficiency and saved-time. Does this make any sense? The comments about How much time does gang-cutting actually save got me thinking about this.
Edited 1/28/2005 1:54 am ET by Huck
Tell me: Your crew has a stronger sense of team-pride and confidence since you've gone to gang-cutting with your specialized saws - am I right? My experience was that even the lumber-humpers and grunts feel like they're part of something special. I mean, you're excited about it, by virtue of the fact that you're taking pics, posting pics, writing about it. Even that fact - you, the roof-cutter's excitement, will affect the crew. It rubs off. Are you the contractor, the foreman, the lead-framer? Building excitement for the project is the mark of a good leader.
We have 2 new guys on the crew. One guy was siding with our in-house sider, but he quit, so Matt is framing with Jasen and I. The other two guys we had had to move back near their family and help out their families. Matt's brother in law came to work for us on tuesday and has basically no experience. Matt helped out on the last roof and doesn't have much experience either.
Yesterday morning they were cleaning up the jobsite while we got some things ready so that once we were up in the ceiling joists, no one had to come down. By break the main roof was stacked, birdblocked, tails cut and we were running fascia. Both Matt and Kyle were having a blast. Everything was going well, the roof was cut right and we got the front sheathed. I had some other stuff to do in the afternoon about quitting time, otherwise we would have stayed.
Typically when it's going well like that, no one wants to go home :-) That is a bonus to the company for sure. It is exciting to do things differently. Everyone feels that this is "our" technique. Last summer, it was just me and the two guys who quit and across the street was a house we subbed out. We got to the roof about the same time they did. They had a 6-12 hipped roof that was trussed. We had a 8-12 and 10-12 combo roof. I cut it all on the ground and we stacked it in about a day. We were 2 days faster on the roof than the other crew. It was a huge morale boost for my crew. It kept us on the job 2 hours more a day that week. That was my brother's house, so of course he was happy :-)
I'm going to throw in another illustration that I have thought long and hard about. Several years ago I heard about this sheep-shearing competition, somewhere in Europe. I seem to recall reading this in a reputable news magazine, just a little aside of a couple of paragraphs. I couldn't tell you the source, now. The way it goes is this: Shepherds are invited to a competition, to see how fast they can shear sheep. The contest is held on a steep, rocky incline, to simulate the conditions the shepherds normally work in. Anyway, the shepherd who won this particular year, spent a big chunk of time doing nothing but levelling the site. He was losing valuable time, getting further and further behind, and everyone thought he was crazy. Thing is, once he got a little patch of ground level, he went to work on the sheep, and outsheared all the competition. So sometimes the prep work for a productive system appears like wasted time, but the proof is in the pudding, as they say!
Yeah, he improved his work environment, thereby his productivity. Not only that, but here's something else.
I imagine Tim and Jensen (is that right?) working together setting these rafters in the rack. The next time they are lifted, it's to get them up to where they will be installed (I'm guessing with that forklift).
Now compare the thought of that with the thought of one person, placing a pattern on top of a rafter, marking, removing the pattern, then cutting and sliding the newly cut rafter onto a pile, then placing the next rafter on the horses, placing the pattern on top of it...and on and on. Until, by the end of the day, that sawman has lifted and pushed and slid thousands of pounds of 2x10 around. And he's gonna go home and play catch with the kids?
Jim,
His name is Jasen, but now I'm going to call him Jensen. I don't know why, but that is just cracking me up :-)
I was trying to make the same point you made. To be honest, that is one of the major benefits that the boss is always talking about regarding the forklift. His labor is able to focus on more than just packing material. We don't fatigue nearly as fast because of the machine.
When I first started framing after school, my job was to pack all the cut 2x10s around the house and lean them in a window. Then I would go upstairs and drag them into the house. I would get so tired from that couple of hours of work. It was my job because I was the "jobsite weight lifter".
24' 2x12s just aren't light. In fact, our machine is rated for 9000 or 10,000 lbs and when I grabbed the pile, I could definitely feel it through the machine.
So we are framing the house that I mentioned in the post to Jerrald. This is the 7th time I’ve framed it, 3rd time Jasen has and the first time the new guys have. I gang cut all the commons for this roof. I didn’t layout the jacks on the racks. This roof is pretty complex for its size and price range. It took us 1 day to get all the commons, valleys and ridges stacked and one day to sheathe. Then the third say it took about 2 hours to cut and stack, and sheathe the porch. It is 4 guys, 2 journeyman and new very green apprentices.
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The main roof is 10-12, the front roof over the living room is an 8-12, the back roof is a 4-12 and the porch is a 4-12. There is a supporting valley that joins the 10-12 and the 8-12. A supported valley joins the 10-12 and the 4-12 roof and the ridge for the 4-12 and 8-12 sits right in the intersection of the valleys. This roof is a test for roof framing skills and is quite a bastard (literally) J
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I’m attaching links for the pics and an autocad file that shows the roof layout.
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On this house, I lay out the odd gable (4-12 and 8-12) on a piece of ply to get my rafter lengths and ridge location and adjust the ridge for the different pitches. I also snap out the valleys on the deck. I do this so I can check my math. It only takes a minute and is a good visual for everyone to see and understand what we are doing.
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Where the ridge fits into the intersection of the valleys, we use 6†Simpson SDS screws to suck it all tight. All ridges are 3 ½†x 11 7/8†Rosboro BigBeam glulams and the valleys are 2 1 ¾†x 11 7/8†lvl. I like to layout them out in 2 pieces. It is easier to set and easier to layout. We nail them together when they are set and then use 3†Simpson SDS screws to suck them tight. 10-12 Rafters are 2x12 and the 8-12 and 4-12 are 2x12.
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The “downhill†side of the supporting valley from ridge to ridge has to be beveled so it doesn’t stick up into the roof.
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Here it is after day one. The only rafters that we missed was one common and one jack. The lumberyard shorted us.
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Here is the ridge where the 4-12 and 8-12 rafters meet. The plumbcuts came out really well. http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6635135/85466363.jpg
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This house has some really cool features. I’ll attach pics. It gets a 6’ long barrel ceiling in the downstairs hallway, 2 elliptical arches, and a curved fireplace. The upper walls are 5’ tall, so all the upstairs walls frame to the roof. It is a really cool house. In this development, every other builder trusses their roofs. Nothing can compete with this house, which is why we’ve built it 6 times in this development. It is a great plan and very fast to frame. It will take us 8 days to frame. If we side it, it will take about a day and a half and get fir reverse board and bat.
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cool tim....
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hey .. i got will holladay's book sitting on my bookshelf..
so .... i'm ready.. when do i start ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike.
Where to start? Page one! :-)
We got our modified Headcutter this week. The friend who welded our platforms did the work. We basically replaced the plate with a bigger steel plate so that the Headcutter is more stable and the saw can't lift out of the rafter stock. It worked like a charm. It is heavy though, but that works in our favor. All you have to do is give the chainsaw a light push and it just eats through the lumber. It helps that we take steroids :-)
Take a look at the one picture of the 45°plumbcut. I started cutting on the other side of the racked rafters and came out splitting the pencil line. I didn't have a guide setup since it was the tails and I was cutting them long. The lumberyard sent us material longer than we needed and didn't charge, so it was a good opportunity to test this thing. We tried longs of angles. Both the 45 and the 63 came out on the money.
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In case your wondering what it says on the saw, it says : "Big T's saw. No Finish Carpenters Allowed" Our trim guy wrote on his Bosch 12" SCMS "No Framers Allowed" so I made sure he uses his own chainsaw on crown and door trim.
thanks for posting - love your setup. I had often thought about a jig for cutting irregular hip jacks, or gazebo jacks, (where the angle is under 45 degrees) and I see someone has something similar for cutting coping. I got this link from another thread, but check it out, and see if you get what I'm talking about. http://www.easycoper.com/ Or is there a circular saw that will cut way past a 45? I remember reading an old FHB article (I think it was Scott McBride) where they cut them with a handheld chain saw. It looked primitive, but viable. BTW, your quote: "I started cutting on the other side of the racked rafters and came out splitting the pencil line." Liar. I know that trick. Cut first, then mark a pencil line along the cut edge. Friend of mine used to do that as an apprentice, to drive the J-men crazy. "How could it be short, I cut right on your line, look and you'll see!"
Actually, that cut did turn out, but I know that trick very very well :-) Had some good laughs using that trick.
I agree, Huck. Plus, you hope to attract employees who are "into it", and once you find them keep them, and encourage them to innovate and find efficient methods. This enthusiasm you mentioned does all those things.
People who are so excited about their craft are rare. It's a thrill just to be around them, regardless of what the actual work is. That's why most people have vivid memories of that one special teacher in school, or mentor who inspired them.
Keep it up, Tim. You're making a significant contribution to the advancement of our craft.
"You do things very similar to me. I would love to see some pics"
Hey Tim - Where have you been lately? Sorry about the delayed response to this request, but my wife was cleaning the study today and came across the envelope with the pics that Charles Miller took of our roof-in-progress. Problem is, they're all transparencies, and I need to know how to convert them to digital pics so I can post some here. If I don't get a response, I'll post a query on a new thread, but thought I'd start here since this thread is the reason for wanting to do it.
Huck,
I've been around. There were a couple of good gang cutting threads at JLC that I was following. The Roof framing discussions here ebb and flow, so it's been sparse here lately.
We are getting ready to start a house this week with a pretty cut up 12-12 roof. I'm really looking forward to that. I'm going to take lots of pics and maybe post once a week here or at Joe's site.
I bet you could scan those transperancies. I don't have a scanner, so I would probably go to Kinko's or some place similar. I'd love to see pics.
I'm one of those guys who loves all things framing, so I'm always interested in pics. I was driving around yesterday with my wife and way out of our way I drove past this house that was monster! I stopped ducked under the fence and walked up to it. It is all trussed, but using different styles of bonus room trusses and some really odd vaulted trusses where the top chord was almost parallel to the bottom cord. Maybe it was a 12-12 top chord and a 10-12 bottom chord. Really interesting. They also used Advantech OSB on the floor, which I'm told you can't get out here. So tomorrow I'll start calling around and see where it came from.
You could use Infranview to reduce the size of the scans if you get them. That is the program I use and then I upload to Picturetrail and paste the links here.
Here is the roof plan for that next house.
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Thanks Huck for bumping this up. I have found it to very educational reading in more ways then one.
There are some photo shops that can put those prints on a CD for you for a small fee. I think, but not sure, that Wal Mart can do it now.
I don't have a digital cam yet so when I have the film developed I aske them to put it on a CD for me.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Thanks Dane, I will look into it. I don't think they'd scan well, because they're transparencies, real small, like a slide. Plus, my scanner went on the blitz! But I'm kinda excited about getting them in digital form, and being able to post them.
The photos were all taken in one afternoon, so there's a lot they don't show. But they do show how quick a roof can go up with everything pre-cut, and they show a little of my methodology.
The photo shoot was scheduled for the morning, but Charles Miller got caught in a fog delay, or something, and didn't arrive until the afternoon. We didn't want to start putting anything up until he arrived, so the whole crew just kinda ditzed around, waiting, doing little pick-up jobs and the like. What I really wanted was to show the whole roof go up in one day, which was standard practice for us (and we would have been proud to tell you, the only crew in town that could do it on a house like that in one day, at that time).
But because of the delay, it didn't happen that way. He showed up after lunch, and we busted our huevos to get as much up as we could, and done pretty well, too. Anyway, the story was later killed (and I can't find the manuscript. I know I have it on my old word-processor, which is in storage at my mother-in-laws, but for certain reasons I'd prefer to let that sleeping dog lie!) But my wife just found the photos, which Charles was kind enough to send me, when I requested them.
The house was about 3500 sq. ft., as best as I recall (and the roof covered a lot more than that, because the entry, the 3-car garage, and the patio weren't included in the sq. footage), and squinting at my roof-diagram transparency, I copied the roof plan with "Paint", here it is: (Not as fancy as Tim's upcoming project, but a head-scratcher for me nonetheless)
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Edited 4/17/2005 8:50 pm ET by Huck
I have a camera here at the house that could put those into print type pictures or to negatives. But it is in pieces. It is called a "photo reproduction camera". The base of this thing is 18 feet long. The shutter is 2 1/2" across. It will do neg-neg, pos-pos, neg-pos and pos-neg. It can also enlarge a picture up to 400% without cutting up the picture or distorting it. The only reason that it is no longer in use is that computers have finely gotten to the point were they can enlarge a picture without distorting it.
If Wal Mart can not do it then check with a good studio. They will more then likely have the equipment to do it with.
We all will be waiting for your photos of your next job.
Even a straight gable roof would be complicated to me as I have never done anything like this. Boss Hog with his brain teasers helped me learn a little about it though.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
I'm about to try my first precut everything and stack hip roof because the last one I did took me a couple of weeks while the guy down the street did his in 2 days; 1 to cut and 1 to install.But I think its really ballsy {or stupid ]of me to try because I've never done it before.My plan right now is to enter the correct measurements into my costruction master and hope that the hips/valleys/jacks fit.That other guy made it look easy, is it?It didn't look like he layed out on the hips;when his guys put the rafters up they seemed to be automatically on 16 centers.Suggestions-comments-recommendations?
"I'm about to try my first precut everything and stack hip roof because the last one I did took me a couple of weeks while the guy down the street did his in 2 days; 1 to cut and 1 to install.But I think its really ballsy {or stupid ]of me to try because I've never done it before.My plan right now is to enter the correct measurements into my costruction master and hope that the hips/valleys/jacks fit.That other guy made it look easy, is it?It didn't look like he layed out on the hips;when his guys put the rafters up they seemed to be automatically on 16 centers.Suggestions-comments-recommendations?"
Its always scary the first time. In fact, the first few times. You say it "didn't look like he layed out on the hips" - no reason to. If your hips are placed properly, and your jacks are placed properly, there is only one place for them to fall. Nothing to lay out. Pull a taut string between 8d nails at top and bottom of hip (or valley) and emphasize to your stackers that the hip has to follow that stringline all the way down. When you nail one jack in it will stray a little, but the opposing jack should bring it right back into line.
On complex roofs, I drew a roof plan to scale, featuring every rafter, ridge, valley, hip, cripple-hip, etc., including location of skylights, zero-clearance stacks, everything (watch for stuff like a vaulted ceiling in a corner bathroom, where you have to rip the hip down to plane-in with the rafters...its a bear to try to do it later!). Then divide everything into logical sections, and cut a section at a time, marking the sections so you remember what goes where.
If you have your lines snapped, and your crew can build square level and plumb, you should be OK to take your measurements off the slab, and start cutting. I got in the habit of pulling layout from the corners, but most guys pull off the common at the hip/ridge intersection.
Study the threads on the subject, and study Tim's pictures. I never had a disaster despite my worst nightmares, only an occasional goof that was easy and quick to fix. The beauty is watching it all come together so quick - absolute magic to me, never got tired of stack day.
After reading your post the only thing that freaks me out now is being sure of my H/V placements.Before if the H/V was off it didn't matter a whole lot because I measured each jack after I strung the H/V. Sometimes I'd have to knock stuff around a little to get it sheeted.I never found out what I did wrong so I could correct myself, and I couldn't ask anyone because I'm supposed to know what I'm doing! The problem being that I just Moved somewhere where all the roofs are handframed hips when I'm coming from somewhere where the very few hip roofs we did were hip trusses.Now all of the sudden I have this really complicated hip roof to do [complete with four conical/radius hips ]and I need to do it quickly.I have 'til june to prepare so I think between Will Hollady and my BT friends I'll be more confident by then.Any tips on H/V placement?And Will Will Holladays book really teach me as much as everyone says?[If it ever gets here]Thanks for your help as I live in an area where there are no carpenters to ask.
RFS: Do the math. In plan format (viewed from directly above), the hip is always at a 45 degree angle (unless you are dealing with two different pitches, which I don't think you are). So hip placement is not a mystery. Its a mathematical surety.i.e., if the building is 20' wide, and you are framing with 2-by material, the common rafters will follow an actual run of 9' 11 1/4 inches. When you put a common at the end of the ridge, the ridge will end at 9'11 1/4" from the end wall. Then put two opposing commons flush with the end of the ridge. In plan view, the line from the corner of the building to the inside corner formed by your intesecting commons will be a true 45 degree angle. This line is the run of your hip. It will always be 16.97" (you can say 17 is close enough) for every 12" run of your commons. If your roof pitch is 5:12, your hip pitch is 5:17. On our 20' wide building, the actual run of the hip is 14.05', or 14' 5/8". If I pick a roof pitch, I should be able to tell the exact length of the hip, from the tip of the 45 degree cut at the ridge to the top of the bird's mouth plumb-cut. If the roof is 5:12, that measurement should be 14' 7 3/4"I tend to deal in actual measurements, but some like to figure with the theoretical measurements (to an imaginary centerline), then compensate for the thickness of the material. And I figure all my framing with a trig calculator, whereas a lot of guys like the more expensive Construction Master calculators. Either way, if the figuring is correct, the result will be the same.Draw it out, do the math, double-check your numbers, say your prayers, measure twice, cut once. Have I left anything out?
Dude, I was in the same boat as you. Years and years of trusses or stick-built gable roofs until recently.Now I'm playing catch-up. I have 'Holladay's'book, it really is good. Have learned from these forums,too.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Make sure that you adjust the runs when you enter them into your CM. You have to compensate for the thickness of the hips, valleys and ridges. You can do this when you cut the rafters, or when you enter the run into your CM
Have fun. If you have questions, post here, browse the JLC forums, or Joe Fusco's forum. There have been a ton of threads over the last couple of years. Buy Will Holladay's book if you don't have it. Best $30 you'll spend. If it saves you 30minutes, you've paid for it.
I hope it goes well for you.
tim...one more time...
Will Holladay's book..... what's it called, & where can i get it ?
keep up the great work !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,It's called, "A Roof Cutter's Secrets"http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.filereader?4205436d0014ec0527177f0000010506+EN/products/RC102Sorry Tim, I hope you don't mind that I told Mike and please don't beat me up....;-)Joe Carola
thanks, joe...
just ordered it on amazon for $26 incl. shipping
outta go well with my new CMS +trig
any day now i'm gonna be areal roof cutter instead of just playing one on BT..
hey, joe... tell fusco to gimme his shirt size.. i've had one sitting in my closet waiting for his size and mailing address...
'nudder thing.. sure hope you and yours can make it to calvin's this August.. we do have a good time , you knowMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Joe,
I think you need a good beatin, but since I'm busy typing, I'll have to issue a raincheck :-)
Mike,
I think I have like 5 copies floating around. Whenever I have to go to dinner with the in-law's I bring that book :-) I just love reading it :-) Course anything about framing I love reading
Thanx. The Will Holladay book is on the way.
Nice photos, Tim.
I was wondering why you don't clamp (or tack) a straight edge for your saw to follow when cutting the bird's mouth cuts? Seems like it would be quicker and more accurate than following a chalkline. I'm certain you've tried it, why did you discard that technique?
Jim,
The problem with that has been that the saws with larger blades (10" and the 14") bind up really easily. The table was set at 63.5° and that is really tough on the saw.
As we rack the rafters, we beat the stock tight. If we aren't satisfied, then a slight push with the forklift will get them really tight. Here is a pic of a group of 2x10s for a 10-12 section of roof last summer. I'm not sure if you can see it, but the cuts end up really straight. If it is a 12-12 roof and doesn't exceed the saw's capacity, then I'll use a guide. Hope that answers your question.
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Jim,
One thing I forgot to mention to you about using a guide at the birdsmouth. I have an 8 1/4" Skil that we modified to take a 9" blade (will cut 3" deep). We had to take the guard off and grind on the base a little, but it's a nice saw. With that saw, I can use a guide and not get much bind on the blade. That saw is scarry to use so I don't use it as often, but it does a really nice job.
Jerrald,
Your post brings back memories of the "Operations Management" class I took in my junior year in college. I remember doing a book report (a long one too) on "The Goal" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0884270610/qid=1106892217/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_b_2_1/103-4087895-9459812
However I guess I should say it here and now that I really don't think the production gains are nearly as great as most carpenters think they are if they really exist at all! That's not to say that there are some conditions where such a batch and cue operation is efficient but often they are not at all as efficient as we would think they are.
I'll have to think about that statement some more. Right now, I'll give you my first reaction and I'm basically writing "stream of conscious" so forgive me if it wanders. Your statement might be true, but the fact is, given 2 identical stick framed roofs, and I cut and stack both of them. The gang cut roof IS faster. There is no question. Will that always be the case? No. I'll give you an example. We have one plan that we have built about 6 or 7 times in the last 2 years. This last summer, I gang cut it (It's the house in the pic in my post to Jim) for the first time and we cut and stacked the roof 1 day faster. My crew at that time then framed it twice more and shaved just a hair off that time for cutting and stacking the roof. That roof averaged 3 days when we didn't gang cut, and we did it in 2 days each of the 3 times we framed it gang cutting the rafters. I would say that shaving 1/3 the time is pretty good considering that the only thing that changed was gang cutting.
"Yesterday it took Jasen and I maybe 30 minutes to rack 48 24' 2x12s, lay them out and cut them. There is no way that someone could do that using a pattern.
It took Jasen and I 30 minutes from the time I got into the forklift to get the material, to stack and cut. That was the total time spent on that task. That is why I feel this technique is valuable to us.
Is it possible that it could take longer? Yes, but with planning (that is really intuitive), almost all of that possibility is removed.
Is it efficient to only cut 12 rafters? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I personally wouldn't spend the time to get out all the tools to cut 12 rafters if that is all I had to cut. But, the really experienced roof cutters, cut their entire roof at one time on racks, so that 12 rafters could be part of 100 rafters of different lengths. Once a person gets that experienced, then there really isn't a question of production value. I'm not there yet, but I will be :-)
And if thinking about all that isn't enough as I've gotten older and began to really study and more formally learn about production and productivity I learned that most of the time that can be classified as wasted time and inefficiency occurs not in the actual task itself but in between the tasks! The reality is we don't make our companies faster and more efficient by finding ways to work faster or get the task done faster but in removing the waste in between tasks by designing our operations so that they can achieve continuous flow. I agree 100% with that, but there is still value in learning techniques that reduce waste within the operations themselves.
It's even entirely possible that one person cutting rafters one at a time while working with two carpenters installing them in a Just-In-Time operation is more efficient that a gang cutting batch operation. Sometimes that is true. In this case, it isn't. Trust me when I say that as I am studying the plans and figuring up the materials list for a particluar blueprint, I am thinking about which technique will produce the best result given the house, terrain, crew, etc.
"2004 was the first year we tried gang cutting. Using this technique our avg time to cut and stack a roof was about 1/2 to 2/3s the previous. My framing crew doubled our volume last year. Gang cutting is responsible for a lot of that."
I try my best to keep real data, especially when we build a plan that we've done before and has been done by different crews. Some is anecdotal.
Unless the task of cutting rafters was the constraint or bottleneck in all of your companies process (meaning the one thing that limited your companies overall production throughput) I would think your gains can probably be better attributed to your directing all the processes and achieving continuous flow rather than improvements in just one task. I'm making that assumption from what your saying "Often I layout and cut the roof by myself and then assign the other guys jobs while that is being done." hints at better supervision.
I think that I would tend to agree with the above statement. That is what I meant in my previous post. The process of gang cutting takes a different level of organization. I do attribute the increased production of the homes we build to be more than just gang cutting. That technique has broadened my mindset as far as organization. I feel that I am just beginning to trim the fat and reduce inefficiency.
Yes, you are longwinded, but that's ok. It makes for an interesting discussion.
I haven't read through the whole post yet.............I'm gonna poke you in the eye though, and no disrespect intended.
It took Jasen and I 30 minutes from the time I got into the forklift to get the material, to stack and cut. That was the total time spent on that task. That is why I feel this technique is valuable to us.
I believe in an earlier post you said something about 48 commons. So you stacked them in 30 minutes with a forklift.
Did the fork lift crown them for you too??
Hate to seem like an azz, and think what you want, but there ain't no way anyone took the time to crown those boards prior to satcking and still do it in that time.
Maybe the rest of the thread will answer my question.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Eric,
No offense taken. I wish I had pics to show how we stack the rafters onto the racks but I don't.
Here is the process. The lumberyard stacks material on stickers according to kind and length. The pile of 2x12 24' was in it's own stack. The racks are about 8' long, so I just set the 2x12s about 2' from the end of the racks we were starting from. Then it's a matter of sighting down the 2x12 and sliding it into place. Takes no time to crown and as you slide it into place, you can flip it over.
Also, we make money by getting a job done in an expedient manner. There is no shuffling around on my job. You hussle. Doesn't meant you have to be running everywhere, but you don't get paid to "mosey" around. Two guys hussling the rafters into place takes no time, especially since Jasen and I have done quite a few times together. We don't need to discuss anything, we just know what to do.
The other thing about it is this: 24' 2x12's have a definite crown, you don't have to spend 15 seconds deciding. It's obvious.
Hope that answers your question a little. If not, fire away. I just got beat pretty good playing basketball. Of course, both guys on the other team were 6" taller than me, but still :-)
Excellent posts Tim.
If I ever had to gang cut a roof like that, I'd certainly gang cut it in almost the same manner. Certainly, i'd start out using this exact method, but I'd probably quickly adapt a few alterations.
For instance, I'd probably set the entire load on the deck (it's level and flat and stable). I'd probably use the deck to create a "clamp". I probably would cut the plumb cuts freehand running along the snapped line and the tip of the ridge (that would require me to carefully line up the tip of the plumb cut since that would be my aiming point. OF course, if I couldn't control the cut accuratly enough I'd be forced to use that bigfoot thingy...but it does't look like the kind of tool I use.
One thing for sure, I wouldn't be standing on the ground aiming that chainsaw at my leg. I'm wondering Tim, why aren't you standing over that chainsaw and using your full body for leverage and control? Your posture looked very dangerous to me, but I really don't know since I've never used a chainsaw on rafters.
Another thing that I would do is set up the horses under the tips of the ridge and the tip of the fascia. Your picture shows them set up at the plate line, which is where I would set it up if it were a cathedral ceiling (I'd want the drywall plane to be exact). By setting it up at the tips of the ridge and fascia, I'd be insuring that the plane of the roof was as flat as possible. By setting it up at the plate line, and allowing the tails to dive and dip, your creating a fluctuation that isn't necessary and is easily eliminated. In your picture that shows the tails, I noticed that you have excellent lumber and not much deviation so maybe it's not much of a factor. The cantilevered wanderings on long overhangs drives me bonkers though.....
All in all Tim, I'd say your doing a crackerjack job. I like everything about you and your crew and your methods and I'd be very pleased to apprentice under you, if I was starting out again.
Post some more.....
blue
ps Hows that for some discussin'?Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I was thinking the same as Blue, that chain looks really close to your leg Tim. On a side note, Inspecter man turned down our house yesterday.When the word "shear-wall" was mentioned, guess who I thought of? Shear-walls in Virginia???lol
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Tiz,
So you guys need shearwalls now? Are you near the coast or have a higher hurricane risk?
We've had some odd details lately where we have an interior shearwall that is sheathed, then on top of the wall, up to the rafters we have to build and "X" brace with 20d nails that nails to blocks between the rafters and blocks between the ceiling joists over the wall. That is if the shear wall is perpendicular to the rafters. If it is parallel, we nail blocks to the top of the rafters, build a wall up to those blocks, and then sheathe the entire wall. The roof sheathing is then nailed 6" oc to blocking.
We are learning everytime we frame a house. I find it all interesting. What bugs me is that all the trades keep telling us that it isn't needed. I'll say to the plumber, "why are you plumbing if you have your engineers liscense and degree?" "Well I don't have one", "oh, you seem to really know what you are talking about" :-) I get him everytime. I'm laughing thinking about it.
What's a Shearwall??? Never heard of one in Jersey.... nail the sheathing up and your done........;-)Joe Carola
Blue,
I really appreciate your post. Thank you very much for the compliments. I still feel like an apprentice to be honest. I come to this forum and learn something almost everytime and then go and try it.
Now, the reason I set the racks under the birdsmouth, is that our tails are only 12" projected from the house. I would rather have everything plane at the plate and the ridge. If it's good at the plate, and good at the ridge (or hip for that matter) then when I eyeball through the middle, I know that any humps or dips aren't because the rafters are wrong, it's probably the rafter stock and then I can correct it.
I don't think, given the quality of the lumber we get, that I need to worry about the tails. At least, it hasn't been a problem so far.
The 2x10 and 2x12 stock that we've been getting (HemFir) the last few years has really been pretty good. Out of that pile of 48, we didn't cull one. I ordered a few just in case, but it was really good. If there had been, I would have set it aside and cut it into jacks.
Ok, as far as safety goes. The pic does look dangerous. The bar wasn't as close to my leg as it looks from that angle, but that pic does look scary. Normally I stand to the side, so if it kicks back, it won't hit me. That being said, we had just put a new chain on, and the saw pulled itself through the pile. I didn't have to push at all, just make sure that the base is flat, so the angle doesn't wander.
I am thinking of having a Headcutter made like John Harmon's. His has a bigger base and I think that it would be more accurate for steeper pitches.
"The 2x10 and 2x12 stock that we've been getting (HemFir) the last few years has really been pretty good"You guys always frame with Hem Fir? We used to in Cape Cod but that was it. We use only Doug Fir around here. You bunch of Whimps.......;-)Joe Carola
ain't seen DF for about 10 years here...all HF & SPF
did a funny one a while back with a lot of glass in a tall wall.. engineer allowed us to reinforce the wall with an intersecting partition by giving a special nailing patttern to the gypsum board....saved his fee with that oneMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
uh, I meant to say Iron wood
Thanks Tim,
Phew, I spent half the night thinking I wa gonna get my arse flamed up good this morning!! I have a keen eye for ommissions for some odd reason, and what stood out in all the posts was a lack of mention of crowning. My delivery is a bit lacking though!
I was raised to believe that mostly anything that takes less time is a cheap shortcut and it has stuck with me still! And there is something about the intimacy of two buddies stacking, tracing patterns and cutting rafters for 1/2 a day or more, while the other 2 or 3 guys are nailing sheathing!
But I don't frame for a living, so what the heck do I know. Looks real cool, just be careful with those machines.
I saw some other concerns about the chain saw. When I looked at the photos last night, I saw your leg and the bar lookin mighty close............but what I really noticed was that you were using the top of the bar, not the bottom. Wouldn't this tend to want to push the saw up? I was wondering why you wouldn't stand on top ot the rafters and cut towards you with the bottom of the bar, as you would normally use a chain saw.
Good thread, and very informative.
Thanks,
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Mornin' Bird.
(Go Patriots!)
Eric,
There is only one person who can get to me in less than one second flat and he is over at JLC and hails from the southern hemisphere. That guys is a peice of work.
I cut with the top of the bar so that the wood chips are directed toward the ground. If I don't do that, I walk away looking like a snow man :-)
Would that 'guy' be from Oz, Tim? I'll keep this short. Inspecter man says any wall 4ft or less in length with a window or door in it "is considered a shear wall". Meaning tighter nailing schedule and metal straps tieing the header to the jack studs.??? And we're using OSB sheathing.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
Was that a wall next to the garage header?
Why yes, how'd ya know? The car entry headers are 2 steel I-beams.
I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.
It seems like those "wing" walls are never more than 3' wide. For a 9' tall garage wall, that may be ok, but when they get small say 16" then they just dont have enough ability to resist wind, seismic, etc loads.
I talked to our engineer about that and he said one way to overcomet hat is to pour concrete wall 4' high and then you've only got a 4 of 5' wall on top of that.
If you stood straight up with your feet together, I could push you in the shoulder and it wouldn't take much for you to have to step wider to not fall over. Now step shoulder width apart and it would take a bigger push for me to get you to fall over.
That is the test he did when we talked to him. He did that test to Jasen and I said "well Jasen will fall over if a 2 year old touches him" :-)
Eric, I don't see how crowning 48 rafters would be a deal killer to me. It takes me about 1 second per board to crown. If I'm hand carrying and walking with the lumber, it doesn't even add a second because I usually lift the heavier lumber from one end. When I lift the end and start it up my shoulder, I see the crown and then never forget where it is when I set the lumber down.
I don't see why this process would take more than 30 minutes, especially if they've done it several times.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
.
Great thread ...
and same to everyone else posting.
good work all around.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Tim,
I've been following this thread from back here in the shadows and once again, I'm thoroughly impressed with your work. You're a tribute to our craft. It's so great to see a young guy like you show so much interest in your chosen profession, your excitement and satisfaction that you get from your work shine through in your writing wonderfully. It's inspiring.
You know where I'm at regarding gang-cutting from our emails, just a matter of time until I'm tooled up appropriately. You know I'll be bugging you some more when the time comes! Keep up the great work.
B.
EDIT: Re. the bald spot..... that's just from scratching your head too much on those cut up suckers!
Edited 2/6/2005 8:56 am ET by dieselpig
Dieselpig,
Thank you very much for the compliments. I did not expect the discussion this thread inspired. I was just posting pics :-)
How did you know the the reason I'm going bald?
"It's so great to see a young guy like you show so much interest in your chosen profession, your excitement and satisfaction that you get from your work shine through in your writing wonderfully. It's inspiring."
Yeah, I agree. But he's not the only young buck around here who inspires me. You do us all proud too, diesel. I'm sure there are others who I just assume are older, too. Lots of young folks have the gift. And the passion. And the grit.
When I hear people talk about the declining sense of craftsmanship in the trades I always think about the folks who post here. The future of our profession is in good hands.
Thanks Jim... that's encouraging and I appreciate your noticing as much as I think some of us younger guys appreciate those of you who are more battle-tested sharing your knowledge and experience with us. It gives us something to aspire to.
Tim, I really wanted to discuss the relevance of getting the roof to plane from plate to ridge vs fascia to ridge with you. I don't want to hijack this thread so I opened one up in the technique folder.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!