Replies

1. 
   FlavaDave | Feb 25, 2005 02:56am | #1

   By the way, the garage is attached, but the house is only one floor with open attic  and roof framing above (no living space above).

1. 
   rez | Feb 28, 2005 10:01pm | #2

   Greetings JDA, as a firstime poster Welcome to Breaktime.

   This post, in response to your question, will bump the thread through the 'recent discussion' listing again.

   Perhaps it will catch someones attention that can help you with advice.

   Cheers

   SanchoRon the caballero bowed low as he waved his sombrero and said goodbye.

   FREE SANCHO!!!

2. 
   firedude | Mar 01, 2005 03:59am | #8

   does the roof space of the garage communicate (connect) to the roof space of the residential space? meaning - can a fire in the garage travel across the roof/ceiling/attic (whatever you want to call it) and get into the house? Most building codes for single family residentials will call for at least a 1 hr fire-rated assembly separating the garage from the rensidential space - some may require a true fire-resistive wall (aka cement block wall) to provide separation.One thing to keep in mind is that any code requirement is a minimum requirement - meeting them just "meets the code" - doesn't mean you're "safe" - since it's your house, you might want to get some protection in place anyway - consider putting a heat detector in the garage interconnected with the hard wired smoke detectors in your house - sure would be nice knowing the garage is going up before it extends to the house (especially at 2 am with a storm outside)

1. 
   Dawg88 | Mar 01, 2005 05:06am | #9

   The building inspector here prefers using cement board over drywall.   Cut a piece from a 4 x 8 sheet of Hardi siding to fit your stairs and screw it on.

    

   David

1. 
   AndyEngel | Mar 02, 2005 04:53pm | #10

   One problem with putting either drywall or cement board on the bottom of a disappearing stair is that the springs are not intended for this load. I spent a lot of time researching this issue last year for an article, and that point was made by several stair manufacturers. They really don't like that option. Before going that route, call the manufacturer. All of them that I spoke with claim to be quite accomodating. They may be able to provide heavier springs or some other option.

   The other problem with covering the bottom of the stair is that the drywall or whatever you use is proud of the hinge. If you apply the trim too close to the hinge, the covering will bind.

   AndyAndy Engel

   Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine

   Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig

1. 
   CapnMac | Mar 02, 2005 08:26pm | #11

   drywall or cement board on the bottom of a disappearing stair

   Really, the answer would be to "carry" the 1-hour wall up around the stair, and give the top of the stair a landing with a 1-hour door in it.  That is, rather than try to re-engineer the door in the field to make the red tag "go away."

   My current gripe on the 1-hour wall is when the wall isn't really 1-hour built, but everything else has to "look like it."  (Back to the code being a minimum, and no guarantee of real safety arguments . . . )  The inspectors are allowing back-to-back electrical boxes, foregoing fire taps, that sort of thing--all required in commercial 1-hour rated walls.  But, for garages, the door through to the house has to have a rating on it, and the board has to be labled "x."  That may be a regional thing, as codes & techniques and inspectors get "up to speed."  But, it's rather annoying to see, none the less.  (Especially on a project you lost out on for the differnece in price of "doing it right the first time" . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

2. 
   AndyEngel | Mar 02, 2005 09:42pm | #12

   You're right. I've never seen a garage wall with Type X drywall on both sides, only ever the garage side.

   That said, I do wonder if it isn't overkill. How many fires start in the garage relative to the rest of the house?

   AndyAndy Engel

   Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine

   Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig

3. 
   BillHartmann | Mar 02, 2005 10:30pm | #13

   Someplace I read that the early codes on garages required detached building and limited the amount of gas stored to 10 gals. Those date from the 20's or 30's. Might have been in an introduction to Taunton's garage book.Anyway I susepct that number of grage fires these days are much lower.According to this;http://www.usfa.fema.gov/statistics/national/residential/loss_fire.shtm37.6% is from cooking and heating.I could not find anything that would be clearly related to fires starting in a garage.Other Heat, flame, spark is 3.8% and other equipment is 0.7%. Proabably hidden in one of those.BTW, all the IRC 2000 requires is a 1 3/8 solid wood door, 1 3/8 honeycomb steel, or 20 minute rated door.And 1/2" DW on the garage side.

4. 
   CapnMac | Mar 03, 2005 02:06am | #14

   How many fires start in the garage

   The tract plans coming out of Austin have notes on "gas tightness" every so often, making me wonder if it's an emissions thing, dressed in a cut-n-paste from the fire section of the code.  (Not that I'd suggest that an over-worked Building Services or City Engineering department might cut corners on a hastily defined "from on high decision" or any thing . . . <g>)Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

5. 
   AndyEngel | Mar 03, 2005 04:04pm | #15

   One of the things I find interesting about codes is that once something gets codified, it tends to stay that way. Codes ratchet tighter, not looser. That's not always a bad thing, but sometimes it is. I know for example, that roof venting is a questionable practice and mainly a waste of time, resources and money. I know that venting crawlspaces may worsen moisture problems. Vapor barriers sometimes rot walls. But this is the code, and there are whole industries now dependent on these sections.

   That's what makes me question the fire seperation. There's not a big downside to it - Heavier drywall and a fire door don't add much in effort or expense, and they cause no harm. Sloping the floor toward the door makes sense as gasoline vapors are heavier than air and they flow downhill. But the question remains in my mind, do we do this because there was sufficient statistical evidence, or because enough of us imagined a danger that may or may not be real? And more to the point, why is it that in this industry, pull down stairs, no one has responded to a code requirement that's been around since at least the 1980s?

    

   Andy Engel

   Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine

   Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig

   Edited 3/3/2005 8:04 am ET by ANDYENGEL

6. 
   firedude | Mar 03, 2005 04:44pm | #16

   the one hour rating usually refers to an "assembly" - 5/8" on 2x4 framing 16 OC w/ 1 1/4 screws every XXX inches with mineral wool (not fiberglass) insulation as an option - 5/8" on both sides - (working from memory so I'm probably not completely accurate) - the problem comes up when "somebody" says 5/8" DW is one hour rated (from what I understand, the sheet is one hour as it "sits" but once it's applied to framing, that changes - I'm guessing the wood framing adding to the fire load and possibly being exposed causes the changes) - since somebody said it's "one hour", that gets accepted and then that wall becomes "one hour" - regardless of the "assembly construction" I don't know how many fires originate in garages but the concern is more the potential sources of ignition usually found in garages (cars, gas powered tools etc.) and also to contain the fire long enough for someone to "notice" Codes seem to be a lot like laws - once the ink drys, you're stuck with it - seems to me there's still a law around here about walking in front of cars with a light on a pole to warn the horse drawn carriages about the oncoming car

2. 
   AndyEngel | Feb 28, 2005 11:10pm | #3

   Sometimes. The garage ceiling should be fire rated, but some inspectors ignore the disappearing stair. Ask the inspector. Fire rated stairs are available, but they're really expensive. An alternative is to drywall and insulate the wall seperating the garage attic from the house attic in the same way as the lower wall is done.

    

   Andy Engel

   Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine

   Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig

1. 
   CapnMac | Mar 01, 2005 12:16am | #4

   drywall and insulate the wall seperating the garage attic from the house attic in the same way as the lower wall is done.

   Which can get a different red tag for roof ventilation, sometimes (like when you need to catch a break, and not by tripping off the ladder . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

1. 
   AndyEngel | Mar 01, 2005 12:18am | #5

   Don't get me started on roof venting.....<G>Andy Engel

   Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine

   Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig

1. 
   CapnMac | Mar 01, 2005 02:59am | #6

   get me started on roof venting

   Would venting (pun intended) help?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

3. 
   danski0224 | Mar 01, 2005 03:07am | #7

   Better check into that. Applying drywall to the staircase access door may not pass muster, either.

   There should be some type of partition (firestop) between the garage space and the living space. This partition can be made from plywood or a Celotex type sheathing (not foam).... but maybe not in your area.

   Codes vary greatly, so find out from the inspector. They like it when they are consulted first.