Replies

1. 
   Jeff_Clarke | Jan 24, 2009 05:10pm | #1

   Most construction codes technically state that you must comply with manufacturer's instructions.

   Jeff

2. 
   wallyo | Jan 24, 2009 05:23pm | #2

   5/8 is an odd size for gas pipe are you sure it was not 5/8 inch of water column. That they give it as a fraction and not a decimal. 1/2 inch pipe should be more then good. But if the manufacture does call for 5/8 pipe and something else is used you could have warranty issues.

   Wallyo

   
   

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   Edited 1/24/2009 9:32 am by wallyo

1. 
   silvertip | Jan 24, 2009 06:38pm | #3

   That's what I thought but on the quote its says 5/8" and I asked them again if they were sure. But I don't think it is the fireplace manufacture (Valor 534) recommends it is what the installer wants?

1. 
   wallyo | Jan 24, 2009 08:26pm | #5

   i know black pipe is 1/2 or 3/4 don't know about flex. But are they talking the 50 feet or do they mean the final flex line 5/8 ?

2. 
   BillHartmann | Jan 24, 2009 08:24pm | #4

   5/8 would not be reasonable number for gas pressure.5 to 8" wc would be.But when I was looking for some flex gas line connectors I did see 5/8" TUBING.They had 1/2 or 3/4 flare fittings on them.Here are the sizes available.http://www.plumbingsupply.com/gasconnectors.html.
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

1. 
   wallyo | Jan 24, 2009 08:33pm | #6

   Bill that is what I just posted, thought you would be by on this one. I pulled up one sizing chart on line they have it at .50 WC. My mistake just checked it is a loss of .5 WC. What you say is what I thought 5-8 *. I used the chart in peter Hemp's book to get that 1/2 is more then enough.http://home.mchsi.com/~gweidner/pipe-sizing-chart-ng.pdf

1. 
   silvertip | Jan 24, 2009 10:37pm | #7

   They want the entire run in 5/8"  O.D. flex copper.  The copper line would come off the main line go 5' turn 90 degrees run 30' straight turns 90 degrees for 5' then 90 degrees straight up for 10' and into the fireplace.  Wether all the bends make a difference I don't know.

1. 
   BillHartmann | Jan 24, 2009 11:03pm | #8

   "flex copper"Do you mean soft drawn copper tubing?Copper flex tubing. That is the stuff with corrugations used for appliance hookup. It has been banned in the US for a long time and the CPSC has a recall on it.Tubing is measured by OD.While pipe is measured by ID..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

2. 
   wallyo | Jan 25, 2009 12:10am | #9

   Bill isn't true that in some areas soft drawn cannot be used? We cannot use it here. Wouldn't 5/8's soft equal the capacity of 1/2 Black pipe anyway?Wallyo

3. 
   BillHartmann | Jan 25, 2009 12:53am | #11

   At it is not allowed here either.But apparently that was a change a few years ago. Still see stuff installed with it.And yes 5/8" tubing is the same as 1/2" pipe for copper. In fact 1/2 hard copper uses 5/8" compression fittings for things like stop valves.And roughly the same as 1/2 IP. Don't know the exact dimensions of IP, but is is close..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

4. 
   rich1 | Jan 25, 2009 12:28am | #10

   5/8 soft copper  is equal to 1/2 hard. 

5. 
   plumbbill | Jan 25, 2009 01:00am | #12

   Hey UA brother, Silvertip is in your neck of the woods.

   Do you guys allow copper on gas now?

    

6. 
   rich1 | Jan 25, 2009 02:37am | #15

   Well, he's about 18 hours away, but whats a couple of hours here or there.

   AFAIK, we've always allowed copper.  We keep the good gas here and export the rest.

   BTW, you ever use any copper PIPE?  I've worked with brass, lead, cast, etc, etc, but never copper.

   You should call your BIL and ask him if he remembers what warm weather was. Almost -40 today.

7. 
   plumbbill | Jan 26, 2009 12:54am | #16

   BTW, you ever use any copper PIPE? 

   Back in 93 we were working with pipe that we weren't sure if it was red brass or copper.

   I have worked with copper nickel pipe

    

8. 
   silvertip | Jan 26, 2009 05:49pm | #17

   Thanks guys for all the input.  While I have your attention on this matter the fireplace will be the second floor and will provide most of the heat for that area (320 sq ft).  The room is wide open with no interior walls where do I put a cold air return.  Rest of the house is forced air.

9. 
   plumbbill | Jan 26, 2009 07:18pm | #18

   Cold air return for the forced air unit?

    

10. 
    wallyo | Jan 26, 2009 07:31pm | #19

    If you are thinking of one for the forced air unit not the fireplace the only reasons I could think to do one is :Heat rises, provided there is not door at the stair top.Second it is cheaper to re heat air that is already heated.Cold air return by it self is a silly term if it were true cold air you would put it in the floor not on the ceiling as is mostly done now.Wallyo

11. 
    silvertip | Jan 26, 2009 11:46pm | #20

    Yes it for the forced air unit.  The addition that I added on makes it a split level and will be open to the lower floor so I would like the cold air return to take some of the warm air and redistribute it.  I have a 52" ceiling fan to help move the air.  If you don't think I need one then I will not bother putting one in.  If I put it in the floor will a floor register be big enough. 

12. 
    wallyo | Jan 27, 2009 01:18am | #21

    I am not the expert on air balancing. but I could see your reason for having one, as you said to redistribute the warm rising air. I was somewhat kidding on the nomenclature of the name "Cold air return", it probably comes from the time gravity furnaces were all the rage 1800's they relied on natural convection to heat no blower. I would install a return in the ceiling if I were to put one in. As to size I have no expertise there. But to keep things in balance you may need to damper down an existing one, if you add one. Another choice is to relocate one.or wait till the fireplace is in to see how things feel, I realize things may not be insulated rough framing and all but you may have a better idea once the fireplace is up and running.Wallyo

3. 
   plumbbill | Jan 25, 2009 01:11am | #13

   24,000 BTU's equals about 21 cubic feet of gas per hour.

   1/2" pipe @ 60' & 1/2 lb of pressure can provide about 38 cubic feet per hour or about 42,000 BTU's.

    

   EDIT----------

   You said "1.5 lb of gas pressure"

   Are you talking about propane or natural?

   
   

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   Edited 1/24/2009 5:12 pm ET by plumbbill

4. 
   brucet9 | Jan 25, 2009 01:44am | #14

   Here are a couple of links to a gas pipe sizing articles with a handy chart of cubic feet per hour capacity of low pressure gas lines of various sizes.

   One cubic foot of natural gas = approx 1000BTU

   http://www.sanjoseca.gov/building/PDFHandouts/6-2GasLines.pdf

   http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/natural-gas-pipe-sizing-d_826.html

   Don't forget that each 90° elbow is equivalent to something like 1.5 or 2 feet of additional pipe length for 3/4" and 1" pipe respectively.

   Hope this helps.

   BruceT