Gas pipe threading and running advice
Hello All,
I’ve searched and didn’t find anything relevant so here goes.
I’m going to be installing the new gas lines in the house this weekend. I’ve got a 1.5″ main line so far and I am planning on installing 1″ branches that neck down to 3/4″ for the appliances.
Any tips on threading galv pipe? I inherited most of a RIGID 12R set-missing the 3/4″ die and the dang ratchet unfortunately. Along with two tri-pod stands and a couple pipe vises. I went ahead and bought the Harbor-Fright version of the 12R hoping that the RIGID dies would work with the HF ratchet..haven’t tested it yet but I at least have a complete HF set of dies to use.
Any tips on threading the pipe? I’ve read the Taunton book on plumbing which has a section in it on pipe threading so I don’t feel totally clueless but you never know.
Any tips on running the pipe? I knew that in CA unions are not allowed in the house and I’ve read that reducer bushings are not allowed either? Why would this be? If it doesn’t leak it doesn’t leak right? I’ve got to use reducer bells to step down my pipe sizes. Why does every plumbing supply place I’ve been to sell reducer bushings? I don’t get it?
We’re not strangers to using gas pipe all the crazy fire art we do uses it but we don’t really have a code there..as long as it doesn’t leak its good.
Any helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Replies
I'm not sure there's much of a "trick" to it -- just put a sharp cutter in the threader and get to work, using plenty of oil. BUT, around here anyways, galv is not permitted for gas -- only black iron.
Oh, one "trick" -- figure out the offsets for your typical fittings and make a chart so you can easily figure your cut lenghts. Someone here oughta be able to post the common ones.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Edit: Are you sure unions are not allowed? Dunno how you would hook up an appliance without one.
Edited 1/2/2009 8:02 am ET by MikeHennessy
Yeah, everywhere I know of you use black iron for gas.
You MUST use galvanized pipe or stainless in Lincoln County Ore. Its coastal and subject to ocean corrosion.
Never heard of using galvanized pipe for gas.
Thread it so you have one to two threads extending beyond the die. Use lots of oil or it will chip the threads. Ream out the inside of the end when you are done.
When hand threading, I find it better to thread a turn or so and then back up slightly to clear the chips before continuing the threading.
Pipe bushings will easily crack. That's why you can't use them on a gas line.
How about .. hiring a pro???
You pay a pro for his expereince, judgement, and, of course, access to his tools and parts. There's a reason it's called a 'skilled trade.'
The pipe sizes seem large, especially for a home. I also have not seen galvanized pipe used for gas. I get differing reasons why this is, and some sources even tell me that the rules might even allow for it ... but it's just not done. The 'conservative' part of me says: be very leery of making this 'improvement.' If it's rust you're worried about, use the plastic-coated pipe.
Cutting threads is an art. As much as I like Harbor Freight, I do NOT use my HF dies for actually cutting threads; just for repairing or cleaning them. Dies, btw., are not interchangeable between makes.
Gas piping uses different pipe dope and tape than plumbing pipe.
Let me put it this way: I feel strongly enough that I'm hiring somone to re-route my gas line ... even though I thread electrical pipe all the time! A man has to know his limitations.
You make good points all.
I do have plenty of practice on higher gas pressure installations most fire effects run >20psi vs. the ~3psi a home system runs and I almost never have leaks.
If I am getting it inspected and my work will have to pass the exact same test as a pros and it passes the test is it not just as safe?
I'm not arguring the fact that a pro will have it done better-faster.
I'm sure that the HF dies are of a lower quality than the rigids but hopefully I can make them work.
The pipe sizes are larger than standard as we have a larger than standard load. The cities engineer went thru the pipe size calc to check my work and said I could of uses 1.25" pipe for the main line instead of the 1.5".
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
when it comes to pipe threading i go somewhere that has a machine and gets er done.
but i'm a little slow so it took me a couple trips to figure this out. if you buy pipe at hd/lowes ,be sure to grab a 10' and let them cut all the pcs you need out of that.10' runs about 15.00 and if you have them cut 6 pcs out of it,it's still 15.00, you may throw a foot but who cares.
i kept going in there and telling them i needed a 4',3,2 piece. so i was charged about twice as much.
YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'T
MOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THE
DUCT TAPE.
Remember that BI you were playing with?
Now's the time you gotta go back and ask him if he'll allow the new fancy modern flex lines. Bet those may be preferred in your shakey area.
Here in so call, all connections are made with Flkex lines. Black piep only for gas and unions are not allowed.I used run a lot of gas line when roughing in plumbing in tracts back in the early 90's for a large plumbing outfit. 1st day on the job was how to use the pipe machine. 2nd way was how to use the chainsaw to notch joists.ML
Pipe threading is reasonably easy. Do you have a tri-stand or other pipe vise? A couple of pipe wrenches, a metal cutoff saw for cutting the pipe to length, appropriate pipe dope, tape, pipe straps, etc?
Yep like I said in the original post I have two tri-stands, two pipe vises, most of a rigid 12R set and a complete HF crapola set. Use I do have dope and tape for nat gas and yes I do have several pipe wrenches and a 12" metal chop saw. That should about cover it yes?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
That's what you need. The learning curve is measuring and cutting pipe to the right lengths, so you can thread fittings on and be right where you want to be. I set my tri-stand on a piece of used plywood and drip oil all over it. Don't forget to install dirt legs--where you go from horizontal under the floor to vertical as a riser to an appliance, use a tee with one end pointing up and one end pointing down. The up end receives a short piece that goes thru the floor to the appliance shutoff, the down end receives a 6" nipple with a cap. As debris is pushed thru the pipes by the flow of gas, it drops into the dirt legs instead of going up into your appliances.
Once you get some pipe in place, cap it all off, put on a test gauge, and inflate it to 100 PSI. Go take lunch and see if it's still 100 PSI an hour later. Your inspector will have instructions for a similar test. Do not test your shutoff valves or appliances, just the hard piping. You need a handful of plugs and caps for stuff like this.
Dan, any plumbing supply should have the missing pieces of your Ridgid set available.
Black pipe as you know by now.
Who told you no unions allowed in CA? Think that is not right.
Joe H
Have an old gearhead threader with adjustable dies.
As already said, trick is sharp dies and PLENTY of good* cutting oil. My gearhead setup has a recirculating pump from a 3 gallon filtered reservoir, pumps nearly a pint of oil across the cutters for a typical thread cut.
* I've tried both new and old motor oil and both left some tears. Finally found 1/2 a barrel of actual cutting oil cheap and nary a tear with it.
If I had to cut pipe threads by hand, think I'd find a different piping solution.
Think the UPC allows type K Cu pipe for NG if it is brazed with N2 purge, like done for AC and HP refrigeration.
Hopefully Plumbill will weigh in on this discussion.
It may vary depending on locality, but I know in Minnesota at least soft copper is allowed inside the house for natural gas. It's certainly a lot easier to install.
I'm in NC, and soft copper is allowed here too. Flared-end fittings are actually a lot easier than many might think.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
You are correct, unions are not allowed.
Galvanized pipe is allowed. Some prefer it to black iron, especially in fittings, as the coating tends to seal pinhole leaks which may exist in the raw pipe.
Depending on the quality of the dies and your skill, (and I can already hear the plumbers getting ready to ream me here) you may consider buying a number of different lengths of nipples and making up the lengths out of stock parts, moving the holes to fit. Cutting threads for a leakless connection takes some practice.
Have fun.
k
I know that galv pipe is not used in a lot of places but here in the SF bay area its pretty much all that is used in residential construction and it is in fact approved. I do live on an island with lots of salty air-fog maybe that has something to do with it?
The union thing is newer under the CPC to hook up appliances you use a left-right nipple or a flex hose with at least one end that swivels. I picked up a couple nice dormont 3/4" flex gas lines for just this purpose.
So lots of cutting fluid..I did spring for offical cutting fluid and I'll just plan on going thru a lot of it. I don't have any sort of recirc system so its going to be wastefull.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Be sure to ream your pipe after you cut it.
You can never use TOO MUCH oil, although it can be messy with more oil but your dies will thank you.
Unions have always been at the appliance only, & accessible.
Listed flex gas appliance connectors are the norm for a union & should be allowed in the CPC.
Sounds like the bldg dept approved your sizing so I don't need to comment on that.
Personally I like to install future tee's, makes life a lot easier if you expand the system at a later date.
Any other questions?
ow about a drip tee to catch and drain condensation?
I put them in even though most locals don't require them anymore.
I will be putting in a bunch of Ts' also for future planned expansion.
I plan on running the BBQ and a bunch of other crazy stuff off of the nat gas line but I'm wondering if I should do that 'after' the inspections? For some reason I think its a PITA to legally hook up your bbq to house lines?
Wife cut up some pieces of 1/2" pipe and practiced threading it. Went well....though I don't think threading 1 1/2" pipe is going to go so well...We actually took care of other things today so will get started on the gas piping sat morning.
thanks,
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
BBQ's are easy & legal.
Just requires a shut off valve & proper quick disconnect.
Big box stores sell the hook up kits.
I actually think it has something to do with the gas and where it comes from. the natural gas used in california does not react with the zinc on galvy pipe like some other nat gas does, and i have even heard that cali does not need drip legs because of the gas. it may not be approved to eliminate the drip leg, but it is not necccesary because of the clean dry gas.
my advice is to work from one rigid end, measure and support as you go, don't get too far ahead of yourself trying to figure take offs, or whatever you call the amount of make up in your fittings.
measure, cut, thread, fit, support, repeat.
an old timer who taught me when i was an apprentice liked to get them VERY tight. more than a few of my coworkers would say one more time around for Wesley, because thats how you get them tight, you go one more full revolution to get that elbow pointed the right way.
Dan, I just finished a run over here on the Peninsula; a 100' one-inch line with branches to service a pool house, an auxiliary line to be used down the road for BBQ'ing or outdoor fireplace, and pool "shed" for pool heater (for existing pool on the lot) which I don't really plan to get (although who knows with the wife's urging). Went from 1" down to 1/2" by the time I entered the existing pool house. To my surprise had a dang leaker after test; had to rework which was a pain--using some 20' pieces that I was bending to accommodate part of the trench didn't help. The leak wasn't in any of the pipe, but the fittings where screwing bent pipe into fittings was a little problematic. Anyway, retest, had another slow leaker; again, a fitting, but this was in the pipe I think because of removing the pipe on the first leak re-work, I flattened some of the threads. I was able to tighten another 360 degree and retest, okay this time. Anyway, got everything all hooked up and fired up the waterheater, heater, and stove, and all work fine. Oh, and I used all galvanized pipe for the underground work.
Some may remember on this projector where I was building a house, the pool house's original gas line came from the house next door; a former family property. Anyway, I needed gas still since I was living in the pool house during house construction. The old line ran across my property and was removed during grading and site work. So I ran 1/2" PVC from my uncle's house (the main house on this former family estate of multiple lots and structures) some buried, some out of the ground to the pool house for the gas line. It lasted all during construction, about three years, and afterwards, another three years. Got a call Thanksgiving Day '08 from my aunt where there was a strong smell of gas. The PVC line where it came out of the galvanized line at the main house was broke! We think a deer probably stepped on it as it might have been a bit brittle from being exposed over six years. Anyway, that was the catalyst to get the trenching and re-plumbing done on my lot.
Instead of starting a new thread, and not to threadjack Dan's post, I have a question on what I'm putting together; in this same trench, I am going to put a water line (half already done during the construction phase of the house), and electrical. At points where my branching of the copper pipe (buried 1" and 3/4" pipe) will come in proximity with the buried galvanized gas pipe, I would like to either sleeve (with PVC pipe) or otherwise tape the copper pipe so that it doesn't interact with the galvanized pipe. Anyone have any suggestions on this "sleeving" or taping of the copper pipe? Materials for the same?
Edit to add: regarding cutting, threading; I went to OSH where I had my pieces cut and threaded to length. Not the most efficient way to do it with a few trips there, but it worked out okay. When I got close to the pool house, I just bought a bunch of nipples of varying lengths of pipe (some 18" and 24" pieces) and returned the ones I didn't use--actually, did the returning last night at Home Creepo, or simply the "Creep." Long story, that one...
Edited 1/4/2009 2:48 pm ET by Wayfarer
Galvanized underground ?Around here we are only allowed copper or poly underground. Years ago we used steel with yellow jacket over top but now is only used on large gas lines.
Well, when the inspector came out to inspect my utility trench (the third of it that had been installed--capped everything to finish down the road) including sewer lateral in the same trench (City of Belmont, San Mateo County) he had no problem with the utilities i.e. galvanized pipe in the ground. In fact, what he said was, "See that 1 1/2" gas line coming out of the house and going into the ground? That's black pipe...you need to wrap that as it enters the earth and trench." I did come out of the house with black pipe, but then in the trench I went galvanized.
Why wouldn't you use galvanized??? I've seen black gas pipe when it simply oxydizes (sp?) above ground. In fact even above ground, going into the pool house where I had three or so feet exposed, I went galvanized. *shrugs*
Why wouldn't you use galvanized???
South of you a bit down in San Juan Capistrano about 10 years ago,
I bought a house that needed some updating. It's pool was particularly in need as it had cracked and sunk on the one side.
When I started removing the oleanders along the property line and next to the pool deck, I found a galvanized conduit coming from the pool's distribution panel leading into the soil about the oleanders. Figgered it led to a outdoor box I saw on the other end.
As I dug these beasts out of the ground, the conduit's condition became quite apparent. It had turned into dust, with about 2 feet of individual connectors also leading to dust.
There was a black pipe leading to the heater, but as the gas company guy pointed out to me, it was corroded almost thru and he red tagged it on the spot.
Checking in with the city later, I found there was a high level of nitites in the local soil that were very corrosive. Only plastic conduits and pipes were permitted as a result.
Well, the galvanized pipe is in place, so hopefully there won't be any issues down the road. ;-)
But yeah, I've seen some of the galvanized pipe from decades (like 50 years) past installations here. Some of it (water and gas lines), when dug up for my site work, looked no worse for any wear. However, funny enough, where some of the water lines, 1/2", comes out of the ground or rides the surface under euculyptus (sp?) trees on another part of the property, the sap or leaf coatings wreaked some havoc on the pipes and that's where there was significant corrosion, and the occassional water leak; again, this was galvanized pipe for water. There was a 1/2" gas leak, but that was probably from earth movement on the side of the hill where the line was more so than corrosion--I didn't make that particular repair at the time.
Wayfarer,
Back in the dark ages, I used to install gas lines for swimming pool heaters. The pipe we used was black iron, but it was coated with a yellow plastic jacketing. If memory serves it was called X-Tru. All the fittings had to be wrapped with 20 mil tape and primer. Don't know how much things have changed, since this was over 30 years ago, but it's hard to imagine being able to use straight galvanized underground now.
Re:
"unions are not allowed"
What do you install next to the water heater so you can break it apart when you have to replace the water heater?
You have to have a disconnectable joint at every appliance, dont you?
If not a union, what do you use? Flex?
I know you can't use unions anywhere else but last I checked you gotta have em at the ends if you ever have to replace anything.
Re:
"unions are not allowed"
What do you install next to the water heater so you can break it apart when you have to replace the water heater?
You just spin the water heater around, clockwise to tighten, couterclockwise to loosen.
Hope it's empty, and I have no clue what to do with the other pipe.
Glad to have helped
Ahh
See, i figured that all new installations had no union but no one would get a permit for the replacement so they would just cut the pipe and add a union illegally.
Hell Ca has so much interesting (aka goofy) stuff going on that who the heck knows how they all do it out there. (We're likely no better on the right coast just different.)
Actually, in the madmadscientist's area, you definitely do want flex at the water heater.
But you have a point. I should have said that unions aren't allowed in concealed spaces. He was talking about the main runs, which I'm guessing are largely concealed.
Thanks for catching that. I'm not a plumber, can you tell?
k
Re the flex at the water heater /mad scientist.
I remember in high school a guy in our science lab turned on the propane gas valve right where it comes out of the lab counter and sparked it up. Hell of a flame thrower.
We laughed for a long time over that one.
Yep, unions can only be at the end of the line.
I'm not a plumber either. Engineer and builder and I run all my own stuff 90% of the time. Am certified in one of the flex steel products so I guess I have some credentials but never had a fear of anything related to vehicles or buildings other than the people who drive/own them.
Hello All,
I am sorry for the seeming abandoment of this thread I'll answer peoples questions in a sec.
After my last post I caught the plague from my neices and nephews at Christmass man was I out of it. The only thing I managed to do over my Christmass break was remove the old black iron pipe that was run everywhere in this old house. It was still 'charged' and man was it scary. The threaded fittings were so corroded that just a minimal amount of wrench pressue and they broke off....don't know how they weren't all leaking.
Then is was off to the east cost for a week of work and then...
View Image
an all expenses paid long weekend vacation in Aruba!!! My wifes parent company does it every year and I'm her +1. Mmmmm warm...
Now I'm out of free time to run the pipe myself and I probably screwed myself. I think I've got all the pipe, fittings and widgets to run all the lines but what, I'm going to find a pro who will at least start out using my supplies?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Edited 1/26/2009 7:57 pm by madmadscientist
What do you install next to the water heater so you can break it apart when you have to replace the water heater?
Maybe its a CA thing but I can't remember seeing any gas appliance in a residential setting not hooked up with a flex line.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Typically we use an iron pipe union round these parts. If running iron pipe, typically put a union on then drop down a few inches with a nipple into a tee with a drip leg and the side of the tee has a nipple into the appliance.
Lots of people are starting to use flex line when using iron pipe but now a lot of the systems are the flex stainless so the flex stainless is run right to the appliance.
I'll have to check into that stainless steel flex line that would be awesome if we were allowed to use it here. Its so much easier to pull flex line thru a run of joists as opposed to having to notch the bottoms-you get more choices of where to run the lines.
I wonder why you can't use the yellow plastic flex gas line they use in ground here inside the house?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"Its so much easier to pull flex line thru a run of joists as opposed to having to notch the bottoms-you get more choices of where to run the lines"
Last I checked, notching the bottoms of floor joists is pretty taboo. I dont have my code book next to me but the knotching requirements are pretty strict. You guys comply with the code re notching, correct? (as strict as it sounds Ca to be, I have to believe so, but I have never seen anyone notch a joist for a gas line. Then you have to put a nail plate on it too!
"I wonder why you can't use the yellow plastic flex gas line they use in ground here inside the house?"
Check the manufacturers requirements on that yellow flex. All the ones I have worked with are supposed to be inside conduit if used outside. But it is used indoors from a manifold to each appliance round these parts.
Here is link to tracpipe website where you can go to technical and then look at installation and see exterior installations. (page 46 is for undground spec's)
You can probably find info on california approvals somewhere in the tech section as well.
BTW you do need to be certified by the manufacturer to install the product. It is a short class and worth while!
http://www.tracpipe.com/trac/technical/
Yea that flex stainless looks really nice. Too bad I've already bought all the galv bits I need...
As to notching joists- How else do you do a long pipe run perp to the joists? You've got 21' of rigid pipe how you going to get that up into a hole in the middle third of the joist?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
How would I run perpindicular to the joists, either drop down in a soffit and tee up into the joist bay and then over or if it is from the end wall of the house, I'd drill thru the band joist and feed it thru from outside. (unless I were in a townhome or a place with neighbors 10'1" away)
That is how I have seen it done over the years.
Of course you can notch joists. Just not in the middle third (lengthwise) where the bending strain is greatest. As long as you are within the first or last third lengthwise, you can notch up to 1/6 (at the bottom) or 1/3 (at the top) of the overall depth.
I have heard it's best to angle the cuts of the notch at the bottom of the joist, although I don't really see why.
k
You 2 might be confusing too things.Yellow "plastic" tubing. I think it might be PE or HDPE, but I am not sure.That is only allowed underground and thermofused to risers for connections to the meter.CSST (corrugated stainless steel tubing) is a flexable tubbing that some what like the flexible appliance connectors. But it has an intergal plastic sheathing over it.That is used inside. Don't know if it is allowed underground, but don't think so.Also said that you ran the CSST directly to the appliacne. What about shutoff valves?.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Hi Bill
CCST is allowed underground in conduit, at least Tracpipe is. I dont know about the others.
Re. CCST to appliances, yes, we would put a valve then tie in to the appliance.
I never messed with exterior HDPE or whatever.
good points though.
Threading 1" and up by hand is much more difficult (but not impossible) than 3/4" and smaller.
Odds are that the HF threading stuff is a ripoff of the RIDGID product, so the dies should interchange.
Yes, use cutting oil. However, as this may be a limited use project, the dies last a while with minimal oil- especially when cutting by hand. The speed of cutting the threads generates a lot of heat, and a person isn't going to do it as fast as a machine. Backing off and clearing the cuttings every couple of turns is more important when working by hand.
An oiler and bucket helps to flush the cuttings out quickly when using a power threader, and the oil keeps the cut cool.
Unless you do pipework every day or use a power threader, odds are the RIDGID dies will outlive you- even with minimal oil... doubtful with the HF product, though.
Do not use a chop saw to cut your pipe... you will get all kinds of grit inside of it.
Buy American made pipe and fittings. They are much better quality than the stuff made in China. Really- not BS.
The Chinese pipe is soft and usually does not thread properly- even by hand. It is also full of rust inside. Sometimes the OD of the pipe is off a bit and that creates additional problems when threading.
The only fittings I have used with porosity problems have been Chinese made.
You want reducing couplings, not reducer bells.
unfortunately the rigid dies don't work with the HF ratchet...I thought for sure they would as the HF set is a direct ripoff...
The no chop-saw thing cause of the grit is interesting... I think we'll just be very careful about cleaning up the pipe afterwards.
I've lucked out and it looks like I won't need to thread the 1.5" pipe but I will be going a lot of 1" threading..lets hope its not twice as hard as threading .5" pipe.
thanks for the reply
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
The one thing I haven't seen mention is the cutting and fitting. what I learned long ago, and it might be outdated/wrong is
"Cut eleven, bury seven" the thought being to cut eleven threads and then twist seven of those threads into the fitting. Seems to work with the taper and tends to result in a tight fit.
Good luck
Rob
How about getting the pipe cut and threaded to size? If you don't mind a few trips to HD you can measure one or two lengths then get them cut and threaded (no extra cost).I did this and it worked fine. They even cut and threaded the piece that was previously installed so I could get a T in it and save the expense of buying all new pipe.
..lets hope its not twice as hard as threading .5" pipe.
As the pipe gets larger, It gets harder to thread. My .02:
In my county we are required to use black pipe only.
You cannot use a street connection (the pipe comes with a street connection that is not tapered to protect the threads).
You can use unions if they are tapered.
Get a pipe cutter where that cuts with a wheel as you tighten it.
When threading run the thread to the end of the die and no further.
Use Rector seal dope.
Buy a squirt bottle of cutting oil off the shelf.
Your pipe is way way too big. In every Habitat house I've piped, we start with 1", drop imediatly to 3/4" and then all branches are 1/2" except furnace.
You will have lots of muscles if you thread more than a couple of 1" pipes.
I wouldn't use much more than 50 lbs to test the pipes. A lot of pressure will just blow the joints apart. The gas pressure probably wont be more than 1lb.
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Edited 1/5/2009 5:43 pm by Marv
Edited 1/5/2009 5:44 pm by Marv
>>A lot of pressure will just blow the joints apart.
What do you mean, blow the joints apart?
Hi Marv and sorry for the very time delayed response.
Here's why we went with the 1.5" pipe.
2-180,000 BTU tankless WH
1 60,000 BTU boiler
1-100,000 BTU BBQ
1-100,000 BTU prof range
2-75,000 BTU gas fire places
1-25,000 BTU gas dryer
+ an unkown number of patio heating devices and fire art.
What size main line do you calc to be able to handle this load?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Did you not have the option of running a 2 psi system with regulators at the appliances?.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Nope this entire part of town is on a low pressure system so if you want flow ya gotta have big pipes...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"Buy American made pipe and fittings. They are much better quality than the stuff made in China. Really- not BS."Amen to that. I bought Chinese made 1 1/4" pipe from a large plumbing supply company and the quality of threads was simply awful; lots of breakout and jagged edges.I hope OP is strong if he plans to thread large pipe by hand; really strong! BruceT
I love doing threaded pipe ( at least occasionally ).
Your pipe seems big for a residence.
Anyway, like everyone else said, lots of oil, sharp (new) dies, good pipe wrenches, 1" and up is tough by hand (really sharp die needed).
This is huge,,,,, quality fittings and nipples. Try to purchase them at a plumbing supply house,,,, not HD. There is nothing worse than installing a fitting, to find you can only get a turn and a half.
Good pipe dope + teflon.
Have fun,,,wish I was there, Harry
This is huge,,,,, quality fittings and nipples. Try to purchase them at a plumbing supply house,,,, not HD. There is nothing worse than installing a fitting, to find you can only get a turn and a half.
Shoot both local plumbing supply stores are closed till Monday...the one local plumbing supply store is in Chinatown and EVERYTHING there looks like it 'fell off the cargo boat from China'...
This might be a stupid question but how can I tell from looking at a fitting if it was made in China?
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
This might be a stupid question but how can I tell from looking at a fitting if it was made in China?
I dunno. Are there any that aren't? If you can't wait till Meyer plumbing is open, get galv. fittings. At least then the zinc will have filled the holes...
k
Ward and Grinnel were still made in the uSA last time I checked.
We did a copper job a few years back in Phoenix. Not a huge job,,,,, kitchen and a couple baths. The materials all came from HD.The fittings did not fit the pipe,,,, either tight or so tight you couldn't get them on.So, another trip to the store etc etc. We finish up and bring all the unusable fittings back to HD. Fellow there says "Oh ya, we had a bad batch of fittings ,,,".Now if you were selling material, and your clients were plumbers and pipe fitters and mechanics (nasty guys), would you be thinking of passing off a bunch of #### on them? Not me!So, how do you know your buying a good fitting? Probably have a known brand name on it. Threads should look clean and crispy, and it should fit well on the sweet threads your cutting w your good dies.By the way, 1" pipe is more than twice as hard as 1/2" to thread. If your not having fun w this pipe, think about getting a pro in (as someone else suggested). A couple good guys w the right kit will really blow out some pipe.H
http://cgi.ebay.com/BRAND-NEW-2-PIPE-THREADING-MACHINE-THREADER-CUTTER_W0QQitemZ290285974407QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Pipe_Threaders_Dies?hash=item290285974407&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
Betcha you could resell the above machine (or similar) and save yourself a lot of pain.
Just my two cents. I've had pipe threaded recently at HD and the local plumbing supply house that is supposed to be good.
The only place that didn't have significant teeth problems was at HD that had a new die. Call me picky but I like all the teeth to be on the end of the pipe.
You will get a work out on anything over 1/2".
I like to put high quality (the white stuff) compound on both the male and female. I figure as the pipe goes in I want a supply of compound feeding into both sides.
I cover all the threads on the outside after I'm done to reduce the corrosion down the line. I've seen pipe fail at the threads where it enters a fitting due in part to corrosion.
I wouldn't use an abrasive wheel to cut it. A sawsall would work better. If you have trouble starting the threader bevel the end of the pipe a bit so the die can start. You might have to push pretty hard to get it to start. Sometimes it just easier to grind a bevel on the end.
There is just about nothing worse that getting down the line and finding a fitting that was under tightened. I've run into this before. Lazy guy didn't tighten the %&*$# fitting enough.
Have fun. I actually enjoy cutting and threading pipe. There's something real physical about it.
I may be wrong but i think i remember reading here that galvanized flakes can run down the pipe and get in equipment. That was why they preferred black pipe.
Edited 1/4/2009 7:43 pm ET by popawheelie
I think that in a lot of areas they used black iron for gas because galv was used for water, and they wanted to be sure they didn't get crossed. (And, yes, it happened from time to time.) Of course now galv is hardly ever used for water.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Bad popa.
Thread sealant/pipe dope/ lubricant, (hope I made every one happy) goes on the male threads. First 2 threads are to be left bare. Putting dope on the fitting means you push dope into the pipe where it might make its way to the valve and screw the valve.
So, how'd it go?
k
So, how'd it go?
SOrry it didn't only got around to removing all the old seriously deterioated black pipe that was run everywhere in this old house.
Now I gotta figure out if I can squeeze out enough time to do the work.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I'm just glad you didn't blow yourself up!
I'd offer to come over on a weekend and help for Trumer Pils, but I'm swamped right now, fortunately.
Good luck. Don't be afraid to be a wimp and buy a whole bunch of different length nipples. You can end up with almost any length by combining nipples and couplings. Like, 3 @ 4" (plus 2 couplings) is longer than 2 @ 6" (plus 1 coupling) is longer than 1 @ 12", if that makes any sense. More joints, but the odds of quality factory nipples threading perfectly is better than homespun ones. Oh yeah, you know not to use the merchant's couplings if you buy threaded pipe, right?
It'll cost more, but go faster than threading your own. I realize that's a homeowner type cheat, but whatever...
k
You get this finished yet?
Too tired to type maybe?
Joe H
Blew himself up?
k
I told him to bite the bullet and buy a bunch of nipples.
k
or was it the other way around?
Here's a post from the wifes house blog about the gas line we ran last weekend. We only had a half day to work on it but got about half of it done. Check out my pregnant wife threading 1.5" gas pipe!!!
Sunday, February 22, 2009
fun with gas.. pipe that is
View ImageIn the pile of trash remaining after Leroy's grandkids took everything they thought had value, were some tools from his days as a plumber. This box held the dies sitting next to it, which are used to cut threads into pipe. The two big pole things are ratchets the dies would go into, if they were from the same set.. Unfortunately, they weren't, and a ratchet for the great Ridgid set he had now costs several hundred dollars. Which might've been worth it, because it is really good set, except there was no 3/4"" die, which is one of the sizes we need.
View ImageSo, we took a little field trip to Harbor Freight, which is sort of like a trip to the toy store, and picked up a full set for less than the cost of a Ridgid ratchet. We have no illusions that this will last nearly as long, or be of nearly as high quality as the Ridgid set, but we don't have all that much pipe to run so it fits our needs pretty well.
View ImageOne thing that was all together was this tri-stand for holding pipe while you thread it - also Ridgid, and also remarkably expensive to buy!You tighten the pipe in the vise, and the wide leg base makes it very stable so you can crank down on the pipe without it moving.Plus, it's got a quick release, which makes it easy to get the pipe out after you've threaded a fitting onto the end of it, as we discovered later.
View ImageIn theory, it's all very straightforward.. you slide the ratchet on a clean, square-cut, deburred piece of pipe and crank it clockwise to start cutting threads.This ratchett has a reverse, which you're supposed to use every full turn or so to back out the shavings so they don't muck up the threadsAnd no holding back on the cutting oil.. lubrication keeps it all sliding smoothly
View ImageAnd voila! a pipe exactly as long as you need!
View ImageEverything went so well on the test pipes, we were ready to go on the 9' length of 1.5" pipe. One of the last things we need to do for the heat is to run the gas to the boiler, so that's what we're working onHere's an action shot of Dan working the ratchet.
View ImageThis is what it looks like mid-threading. We stopped regularly to get out all the shavings and spray lubricant in there, but the threads still wound up a little chewed up
View ImageFrom here it looks like a perfect job!
View ImageAnd the fitting went on easily, so it was time to put it inline.We used teflon tape on the male pipe end and liquid plumbers tape on the female fitting, which is what all the pros recommended. It helps protect the pipe, since the galvanization is gone where we cut threads, and of course helps get a good seal.
View ImageThe first one fit perfectly!
View ImageThe next one I cut, and it wasn't quite as pretty.. and the fitting didn't go on as easily.. but it did go on and it doesn't leak.But that's not really the point of this glamour shot.. I'm still barely showing, but I don't have any maternity work clothes, so we wind up with very attractive views like this.We didn't get the whole run done, so it's capped off and next weekend we're back on pipe duty.
Posted by irene at 2/22/2009 09:43:00 PM
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
More gas pipe running (nope still not done....)
The fun with gas never ends
View Image Each Saturday morning we wake from our View Imagedreams of the cavalry riding in and doing a large amount of work for a reasonable price and head downstairs, turn off the gas, and get back to the pipes..I've been lagging on posting pictures and details because it all looks a bit monotonous: a run of pipe, a piece of pipe being threaded, pipe wrenches tightening the new piece in, cutting the next obstacle out of the way. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.The fun and exciting part is how every 5 feet View Imagethere's an old unused gas line, or something unimportant like the main water line coming into the house, that's completely in the way of the gas run and has to be moved before we can continue.
Here's a selection of pix of threading gas lines
View ImageHere's a little slice of one section of the room.. It's a bit busy, but a decent representation of how much is involved in running not all that much pipe.
View ImageThis is getting close to the end of the run to the new tankless water heater.It may seem like hooking up a new water heater is a distraction from the work to get the heat up and running, but a) we need to complete the entire gas run for this floor so we can pressurize/test it and have it inspected, and b) our current water heater I bought on craigslist goes out at random with increasing regularity. Like last night right before shower time.
View Image Moving on to to some of the cutting of unfortunately placed pipes.. This is a hot water line running to the lone bathroom in the houseWe need to replumb the water lines in the house and Dan has been trying to get the permits approved to use Pex tubing instead of copper (it's better in 100 different ways.. Dan should do a post on that at some point.), but has been turned down several times. Pex is legal and approved, but until August is at the discretion of the local building official.
View ImageThis is what that pipe looks like on the inside. It was so gross I absolutely couldn't convince the camera to focus on it!This is one good reason for redoing the water lines, which we would do right now if we could just get that permit..
View ImageThis is one of the more interesting action shots of cutting random pipes out of the way. My dear husband takes the most flattering pix of me working
View ImageHere we had not only pipes, but also walls in the way of the gas runs.There were notches already in the joists, but they were for a smaller diameter pipe that was apparently bent
here and there because they were only sort View Imageof aligned.I widened the notches a bit and made them just a smidge taller - they can't be any more than 1.5" into the joist, which is just barely more than what they need to be for the 1" gas line to fit, so I had to be pretty careful not to cut outside the lines.
View ImageThe pipe made it all the way through the field of joists only to knock right up against the top plate of a wall, so I took a notch out of that too....only to get the pipe to the other side of the wall where it knocked up against a water pipe!Take that little story and repeat it over and over, and that's what the last month or so has been like
View ImageThis is the far side of that water pipe after it was removed.. it's extra special because from this point on it's a single pipe that goes all the way to the kitchen sink. With no joints, our two options were taking the whole thing down and replacing it, or threading a cut end in place to attach a fitting and connect to a temporary line. Since our goal here is to get the gas done in order to have heat sometime before midsummer, we went the thread-in-place route
View ImageView ImageAnd it worked great! Here Dan has it all threaded and hooked up to a shutoff valve, which was then hooked up to the previously mentioned on-its-last-legs soon-to-be-retired water heater.
We've been agonizingly close to done with the pipes for awhile, View Imagebut now we're actually close enough to start thinking about pressurizing the lines and testing! So I made a little test fixture that has a pressure gauge with a quick-connect to hook up to our air compressor, on one half of the same size union that connects the main gas line into the house up to the gas meter.
<-- action shot of me disconnecting the gas meter
View ImageAnd here's the little gauge sitting at 10 psibrieflyuntil it went to 9then 8..I should've taken a picture of the giant air bubble that appeared the second we got soapy water on the fitting at the end of the main run right where it splits in 3 directions.. but it was a little too depressing. Basically, one of the pipes I threaded, conveniently located in the dead center of everything so that a good half the piping needs to be disconnected in order to repair it, was leaking like crazy.This being the end of the day Sunday, we disconnected everything past that point, and attached the temporary flexible line to the current water heater to that point and called it a week.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
How big is the tankless heater (BTU's) and how much/how big is the gas pipe between the meter and the unit?
If the piping is too small/long the tankless unit will not work properly.
If the gas supply to your house is spotty, then it won't work either.
Ha you're the first person who's seen the pics to think that the pipes aren't big enough....last week when I had an inspector in to look at something else he was like, 'geez are those your gas pipes?'
We've got 2" pipe from the street to the meter then 1.5" pipe from the meter to a sorta log style manifold. From the manifold we have 1" pipe on indivual runs to the WH, boiler, stove and gas dryer.
The WH is 180,000 BTU The cities plan check engineer checked my pipe runs and dia and said it was okay.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Depeding on the length of run, 1" pipe may not be big enough for the tankless.
You have to be less than 100 feet equivalent (including tees and elbows) for 1" pipe to be OK.
If you haven't done so already, you need to check the gas pressure at the water heater with the heater on. Use a digital manometer or water U tube manometer to do this. Also check with the other appliances on. Don't use one of those analog gauges.
The desired inlet pressure should be printed somewhere on the water heater gas valve.
Depending on your location within the streetside distribution system, and what your neighbors have for gas demand, not having enough gas pressure is a real possibility. There could also be problems with the gas meter or regulator.
Here is a link for a simple sizing chart: http://home.mchsi.com/~gweidner/pipe-sizing-chart-ng.pdf
Thanks for the chart.
With fittings I've got about 30' of 1" pipe and according to that table that should be good for 375,000 BTU's so I'm probably in good shape.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
You are correct. Prego chicks are hot.
and, pipe threading is a somewhat lost art.
I'd suggest buying the ridgid parts to complete that set.
I recently found out that Home Depot was painfully cheaper than our local plumbers supply on that one missing die size. If it makes it any better ... I found out after I bought the 3/4 die at the local plumber supply!
Couple of years ago a guy tried to sell me his plumbers tripod for $25 ...
(I passed, no room in the van)
man ... U kids are way ahead of the game by now!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You are correct. Prego chicks are hot.
Probably didn't need to know that about you...got some preggers p0rn on the ole hard drive?
and, pipe threading is a somewhat lost art.
I'd suggest buying the ridgid parts to complete that set.
We've gotten pretty good at threading 1" and smaller the 1.5" I still get a lot of tear out in the threads. My local hardware store thats literally 2 blocks away has this great old (from the 40's) pipe threading lathe and it just rips thru the pipe so I've been going there to get the big stuff threaded.
I recently found out that Home Depot was painfully cheaper than our local plumbers supply on that one missing die size. If it makes it any better ... I found out after I bought the 3/4 die at the local plumber supply!
Ya was at the local home despot and saw the dies there...cheaper than I thought but I also need the ratcheting wrench and truthfully the wrench they had there looked to be of lower quality and flimseyer than the Harbor Fright stuff I'm using.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Can you use flexible stainless gas piping there? You could get around some to the obstacles, and not have to cut and thread.
Ya flex woulda been the smarter way to go except I don't have the tools to make the fittings and what not.
and well its done so...maybe next time...oh wait never doing this again I hope...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Unions might need to be accessible when used ... i.e. no burying in the walls.
Yes, ONLY black pipe.
I minimized my cuts w/ careful planing and using standard pieces off the shelf. I ran like 140+ ft and cut only maybe 3 pieces. There are so many pre cut pieces that it makes it relatively easy to avoid cutting a lot.
Edited 1/29/2009 7:32 am ET by Clewless1