We are about to build a house with as of yet an unknown gc. We have solicited bids from 5 contractors and they are due this Monday. I already havea gut feeling who we are going to pick providing he’s not way out in left field on cost ( I’m sure his quality will be good). My question is once we have all the bids back, how aggressive should we be in talking with each contractor about making sure #1 he is happy with his price and #2 can he sharpen his pencil anywhere and by how much? I am sure you can see fine line here between being sleazy and wanting to get the best deal.
Any and all opinions are welcome. Let me statefor the record that I understand the gc needs a number he can make a profit with and I respect that. But I would like that to be reasonable as well.
W in ’04!!
Replies
honesty works well.
Jeff
Why do you want to know if the GC is happy with his price if you are going to beat him down?
My opinion is since you're getting 5 bids you should make your choice and leave it at that.
Jon Blakemore
#2 can he sharpen his pencil anywhere and by how much?
Sounds like no matter what, you plan to see if he can go lower. I dont see where you are to concerned about him making a profit as much as you are in getting the cheapest bid!
#2 can he sharpen his pencil anywhere and by how much? I provide a price to do a certain scope of work to a certain level of quality. If it's too much, too bad ... that's what it costs. Now, if you want to modify the scope, or look at alternate materials, then we can talk about lowering the price.
"Waiter, how much is the 12 oz ribeye steak? Would you take less. No, I want steak not hamburger."
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
What you'll likely get when you ask for a lower price than that bid, is ways to cut costs by substituting cheaper materials, unless your specs call out stuff at the bottom already.
Or maybe they will suggest you make the house smaller. Can you stand one bedroom less? How 'bout house on a slab, with no basement?
When I bid a house, my bid is based on plans specifications and materials and features either indicated on the plans and /or specified by the client. My subs do essentially the same thing. Those line items are usually set in stone unless the HO wishes to make a change.
Some features may not be specified on the plans, or clarified pre-bid by the HO. In those cases, my bid is is based on "mid-quality": For example, if the roofing material is not spec'd, my base is 30-year laminated shingle; My plumber usually includes one standard-sized spa tub in the master bath; The HVAC sub starts with an electric, forced-air furnace.
You want a 50 yr. roof, or a metal roof, we do a change-order and the price goes up; You want 3 tab, I try to dissuade you and fail, we do a change-order and the price drops (a little).
You want a fiberglass tub/shower unit in the m/bath, you might save a few bucks.
You want pic-a-watt wall heaters and no furnace and the bank says OK, you might save a few bucks.
Now this is brief cause I'm a little short of time this AM, but what I'm trying to say is that most builders won't try to gold plate your project unless you've got a sign on your forehead that says "deep pockets." Most bids are based on a base point of quality and cost reductions, while possible, are somewhat minimal.
It's been my experience that most custom homes usually end up costing more at the end because of HO desired upgrades.
Having said that, your G/C "bids" will come to you as proposals and, before you sign off with your guy, tell him you'd like to shave a few bucks off; "We'll go with vinyl windows instead of the Andersons, we'd like F/C siding instead of the stone veneer, we'd like to explore some less expensive flooring options....."
And he may have some suggestions as well....sometimes architects and designers throw in little things that look cute on the elevations, but may add considerably to the building cost. I'm building a house right now, for example, that has a steep roof with half a dozen gabled dormers with boxed cornices, 4 of which do nothing but provide some visual symmetry and additional attic venting. To remove them would certainly alter the appearance of the house, but it would also knock a few thousand $'s off the building cost.
As someone said, be honest. And be upfront about what you want and then, when everyone's on the same page, get outa the way and let the man do his job.
Hope it all works out for you!
Bob,
Thanks for your post. It set off a train of thought in me as to what is behind the query "Can you sharpen your pencil?" (now, don't go listening to anybody here, some of them mistakenly think I was set off a long time ago.)
It has to be that the perception is that a GC is, like the HO, looking to get the most he can out of this "deal."
After all, that is what salesmen and traders have been doing since the dawn of time. And a GC is a salesman and trader. Trader more than salesman, because a salesman works for someone else and that someone else sets the price of the commodities a salesman is selling.
A house is obviously not a commodity, it is more like a Persian carpet, unique, and one-of-a-kind, therefore impossible to assign a fixed value.
It is at this depth that the query does not apply because the analogy breaks down. While it is true that some successful GCs are just experienced tradesmen, most are really businessmen. The difference is in the price setting mechanism used.
A tradesman is building a unique, one-of-a-kind item and cannot know its true value. He makes an educated guess as to what price will pay his costs and net him some personal monies.
A Businessman, of any business, uses a very simple formula:
+ Cost of Material
+ Cost of Labor
+ Share of Annual O/H
+ % for Profit
A business man who is a GC is not working with a one-of-a-kind item. He is assembling common off-the-shelf components into common, well known, subassemblies, that together, will create a somewhat unique totality.
Think of it as the difference between a stonemason and a bricklayer. Both know about how long it will take to build a wall, but the stonemason has no idea how long it will take him to lay a particular stone he gets to until he gets to it. The bricklayer knows what it will take to set each and every brick he comes to before he even signs the contract.
If you recieve a proposal or "bid" that is a simple one liner, it is proper to wheel and deal with the tradesman GC. I won't say that it is safe to contract with him, as he may not know his true costs and therefore may not be around long enough for the "Break in Bugs" to manifest themselves.
If you receive a well documented and detailed Proposal, you can be relatively assured that this businessman knows his business and that his business will be there for you when you need it.
SamT
Bob -"My question is once we have all the bids back, how aggressive should we be in talking with each contractor about making sure #1 he is happy with his price and #2 can he sharpen his pencil anywhere and by how much? I am sure you can see fine line here between being sleazy and wanting to get the best deal."
My question for you (both here in these forums and if I was hypothetically the GC) would be what does sharpening the pencil mean?
In other words does sharpening the pencil mean a willingness to give a second look at your project and look for features and things you can eliminate and do without or reduce such as instead of installing granite countertops substituting a laminate counter surface in it's place or vinyl floors instead of hardwood.
Or does sharpening the pencil mean you want the contractor to find a way to do the exact same specified project someway for less? In other words work for less money.
Those are two very different things.
In the first case where you asking the contractor to work with you to eliminate features that are costing you money that is sort of a form of what's called Value Engineering. But ya know what when the contractor has to put in eight hours to work on an alternate plan to save you $1000 you don't really save anything because you are going to be charged for the time it took to revise the plans and process. If the contractor can work for eight hours revising something so that it saves you $10,000 that another thing but then the question is if the $10,000 saving is the difference between getting a slate roof and getting a three tap 25 year asphalt shingle roof will YOU be willing to settle for the three tab asphalt shingle roof? Will you be willing to settle for a Ugo when what you really wanted a Caddilac Escalade?
In the second case your just asking the contractor to be willing to just plain old make less money. I don't know what you do for a living but if you boss came to you tomorrow and asked you to take a pay cut what would you think? That's how that question goes over with contractors too. About once a year we have a potential client tell us "well we would really like you (our company) to do the job but we would like you to do it for the price that company X said they would do it for". We've walked away from every single one of those jobs.
Here's another hint too. Don't even think of using the phrase sharpening your pencil if you do decide you want to have your contractor perform some Value Engineering on your project. I hear that phrase and lights and sirens go off telling me that the client is a potential nighmare and not worth the trouble. It's just that sharpening your pencil almost always means work for less and rarely if ever means perform value engineering.
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"I don't know what you do for a living but if you boss came to you tomorrow and asked you to take a pay cut what would you think?"
if you've always worked for yourself this may not be evident to you, but when someone is about to be hired somewhere and sits down with the HR people to negotiate a salary, they'll ask you for a number and then counter with theirs. So I may say, "I'm a $75,000/yr professional XXXXX," to which I'll hear, "but we're looking to fill a $68K position."
I may take it, I may not. But the point is no one will hand you exactly what you want. Even if they were planning on paying X and you asked for X, they'd counter with X-N. That's the way it goes (unless you're a superstar and they'll pay extra for the priveledge of retaining you).
When you hire a guy for your crew, do you say, "Hey Jimmy, how much should I make out your paycheck for?" and whip out your pen?
One last point, the guys you find here on Breaktime are probably the best, most professional people in the industry (they read FHB and are interested in continual improvement of what they do). The average GC homeowners will run into represent a cross-section of the industry.
That said, I agree that most GCs are not out to retire on this one job, and you make a valid point of value-engineering vs. pencil sharpening.
Edited 10/19/2004 1:56 pm ET by 6milessouth
Edited 10/19/2004 1:57 pm ET by 6milessouth
Edited 10/19/2004 1:58 pm ET by 6milessouth
Edited 10/19/2004 1:58 pm ET by 6milessouth
6milessouth since you quoted me I do know you read what I wrote which was:
You'll notice I said "would you think?" which is very important. What you or I or anybody else thinks will differ person to person but for the most part everyone will think to one degree or another that the person asking me to make the concession doesn't feel I'm worth the dollars I asked for. What we think is the important part. I've told you or at least hinted at what I (my company) thinks*. You don't want to pay our price, that's fine go with someone else, but we are certainly not hurting for work so we aren't at all interested in negotiating. Now a young trademan or young company may think otherwise but there is another obvious tradeoff in that in that you get someone who is in less demand for a reason. They are or they think they are worth less.
I can't go in to the Apple store and negotiate to buy a Macintosh for the price of an equalivant PC. They just wont do it. But there are plenty of PC dealers where you can nefotiate with to buy a PC for less than another PC dealer. It all depends.
* Somehwere here in these forums just the other day I mentioned how one of our GC clients (we are architectual woodworking contractors so a lot of our cleints are GCs) described our pricing as "arrogant". I got a kick out of that when I heard it but it took me many years of giving my/our services away for less than they were worth before I corrected that. We get a lot of the projects we do becuase our clients can't find anyone else who will even look at them so if you want that railing done with a continous helical wreath turn instead of a herky jerky trasition made up of standard stock railing parts you will have to pay for it. I started a discussion on just this topic two years ago called Pricing for ‘perceived value’ which explored what I and others here thought on all this.
Ya know this discussion also brings to mind the story I once read about in Selling the Invisible (arguably the best and clearest book on service marketing I ever read and what we are doing as buildier and remodelers is marketing our service(s))
The moral of that little parable as the author Harry Beckwith tells us is...
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Yes I read what you wrote, but didn't quite understand where you were going with it. My apologies.
If you're in high demand, then you certainly are one of the "superstars" I mentioned in my initial post (like Picasso). That's great for you.
So do you pay your employees what they perceive they are worth, or what you perceive they are worth? if they take what you offer, does that mean they will have to do a job for a wage they feel is beneath them? :-)
6
6milessouth - "Yes I read what you wrote, but didn't quite understand where you were going with it. My apologies."
Hey no apologies necessary. I was writing that to reiterate and confirm that we were in agreement. At least I thought we were until you apologized. Now ya got me confused.
"So do you pay your employees what they perceive they are worth, or what you perceive they are worth? if they take what you offer, does that mean they will have to do a job for a wage they feel is beneath them? :-)" My employees pretty much run their operation nowadays and since it's an open book operation they understand the numbers. Back when I hired them initially I in fact asked them what they wanted and then I made the choice as to whether I felt they would be worth it or not. My thinking then and now was that I wouldn't want someone working for me who felt they were underpaid or had to settle for less than they felt they were worth.
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I now have my own business but have in the past have negotiated my salary. Knowing that I was going to have to negotiate I always asked for more than I wanted so that the number wound up where I wanted in the first place. Not once did I not end up with more than I hoped.
If I am bidding a project I have to try to be in the area of the low bid to be considered. Then you want me to negotiate?! With what? I just tried to be low to mid bidder. So if you are going to ask me to negotiate lets set the rules up front so I can adjust my strategy from the begining. I always knew the rules when negotiating my salary up front. How about in this case? DanT
I think I read you question a little different than others. Are you asking specifically about what extent to play the five contractors against each other for the best number?
Kevin Halliburton
And with that, the great emporer Oz gently floated away on a curtain of hot air, laughing at the unfortunate ignorance of little people beneath him. But under his breath he cursed that stupid little dog...
Whoa, Kevin maybe I'm not reading what you asking entirely correctly.When you say "Are you asking specifically about what extent to play the five contractors against each other for the best number?" are you asking him something pertaining to bid shopping or bid peddling? Boy that's a hot topic in an of itself. Do you remember the Lumber yard quote letter topic here a while back?
To me there is a subtle but very important semantic difference between "playing contractors against each other" and "asking contractors to bid competitively".
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What was written was:
"My question is once we have all the bids back, how aggressive should we be in talking with each contractor about making sure #1 he is happy with his price and #2 can he sharpen his pencil anywhere and by how much? I am sure you can see fine line here between being sleazy and wanting to get the best deal."
I read that differently than others seemed to to be reading it. I think the original poster is wanting to know where to draw an ethical line on how he uses all the bids to his best advantage. I belive he is interested in learning what is the acceptable, ethical way to get the best price between multiple interested parties, not just how to get the best price from the one he likes best when all the numbers are in.
I have the impression that what he is scincerly asking is whether bouncing bids around is ok. It's a perfectly legitamate question. I know a few GC's who do exactly that with their subs and several that think it's deplorable. I have my own opinion but figured it would be a smart idea to find out if I'm even reading the question right before I tried to answer it.
No animosity was intended just in case someone read a knife into my question.Kevin Halliburton And with that, the great emporer Oz gently floated away on a curtain of hot air, laughing at the unfortunate ignorance of little people beneath him. But under his breath he cursed that stupid little dog...
Kevin Halliburton - I have the impression that what he is sincerely asking is whether bouncing bids around is ok. It's a perfectly legitamate question.
Well I'll agree and say I think it a legitimate question. But after getting completive bids to then show the bids to the high bid contractor (or the contractor of choice) asking him/her to match that price is unethical and in the very least poor taste. Indeed in the public sector and government contracting market it is also illegal. As I've stated before in the those other discussions on bid shopping and bid peddling:
I also don't doubt that Bobs initial question is sincere and I don't want him or anyone else to think that I'm implying he wants to chisel anybody and in fact I think the fact that he is asking the question he did here shows he wants to do the right thing. I actually wish more clients did the kind of homework he is doing.
"No animosity was intended just in case someone read a knife into my question."
I certainly didn't think there was any animosity I just thought you might have been bringing it up to stir up the discussion on it again. I thought maybe you were possibly trying to divert the all talk from the tavern back towards some spirited but productive conversation on building and remodeling issues???
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I missed that discussion first time around - you saved me a lot of typing out my opinion. Well said.Kevin Halliburton And with that, the great emporer Oz gently floated away on a curtain of hot air, laughing at the unfortunate ignorance of little people beneath him. But under his breath he cursed that stupid little dog...
In commercial contracting stuff like that is done all the time. I'm sure you know that.
GCs in commercial work almost always put some fat or contingency in a bid, knowing that they will need some to work with, when the owner comes at them with the "you are the 'apparent' low bidder, so how can we work together," story.
And they feel their subs do, too. After the contract deal is settled with the owner, the GC turns around and starts "buying" the job packages from his subs and suppliers. Negotiations keep ensuing.
I spent a lot of time on both sides of that kind of dealing, before I retired and took up housebuilding as a second, and part-time, career.
And I chuckle, and am sometimes really amazed, when so many of the folks doing contracting on the residential side of building, want to treat their quotes and bids as something absolute and precious, like they are confident they counted every board, nail, gallon of paint, door knob, and man hour, and yes, it is all in the bid, and no, not a dollar or nail or manhour more, it cannot be negotiated.
How many residential guys doing concrete work have taken the trouble, at estimating and takeoff time, to figure how many pounds of each size rebar are in the job? For commercial guys it is done most every time.
I haven't yet had the pleasure, or pain, of competitively bidding a job to a potential client HO. But if I do it, and after my presentation of bid, get asked, "can you sharpen your pencil a little?" I'll say "sure."
Maybe not as much as they want or need, and the discussions will certainly begin with me trying to "value engineer" some savings, but I will certainly want to come across as someone willing to try and do business.
This is sort of hijacking this topic away from Bob who asked the initial question but here's a hypothetical scenario. Bob Dylan Builders (your company) and Paradigm Projects (my company) are asked to competitively bid the same project and when the bids are in we have submitted the low bid for the project . Lets say it $265,000 vs your $279,000 so your bid is only 5% more than ours. The client comes to you and says "we would really like you, Bob Dylan Builders, to do the job but the price we got from Paradigm Projects was $265,000. Can you sharpen your pencil and do the job for that?" What do you do? What would you think or do if the roles were reversed?
I should also clarify and reiterate again that there is a difference between negotiating price with a contractor and renegotiating the price after the submission of competitive bids.
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As I am sure you know, in the rough and tumble world of competitively bidding private commercial work, price negotiation often happens after the bids are in. That is why the adjective "apparent" often precedes "low bidder."
And translate that, if it is coming from the owner or his rep, as meaning, "we are still talking to everybody, and you are still low. But, you might want to be prepared to go lower, still."
In your example of two bids of $265K versus $279, the job may simply not have enough scope for finding items to "value engineer" out $14K of cost and OH&P.
On the other hand, my bid of $279K might have a $12K contingency in there somewhere, which, if snipped, might get me where I need to be.
I would ask for a 3-business-day time period to review my pricing and sub bids, and request a meeting immediately following. Thereupon I would go back into the estimate with a fine tooth comb, finding and slicing out any fat there might be. I would ask the same of the subs, and I would also rattle them to find out how they treated you, if they bid you, too.
Maybe the three days will give me time, for example, to wring out $9K in material costs, by soliciting pricing from vendors not asked before. Maybe my subs will give me another $3K. Trying to hold onto a little pad, I might begin by seeing if the owner will meet me halfway, at $272K. We'll go over all the substitutions I could find that might reduce cost. Lots of detail, lots of notes on a yellow pad.
It could even be that toward the end, I would give up a little more and agree to do the job at the $265K.
But, hey, it could go the other way. I could go into review mode in those 72 hours, and find a mistake in the wrong direction, and then would call the owner right away, and say, "I would really prefer you went with Mr. Hayes on this one. Best wishes for the job. Keep us in mind the next time."
Edited 10/19/2004 8:50 pm ET by Bob Dylan
Edited 10/19/2004 8:51 pm ET by Bob Dylan
where is bob, you all rember ...... he is the guy who asked the question... i guess he answered everyone's question... HOW CAN I PITCH 5 CONTRACTORS AGAINST EATCH OTHER TO GET THE PRICE I WANT TO PAY.
well bob, playing 5 against the middle will not get you far so you better go with the low ball and if that is not low enough you better get 5 more bids, eventually you will get one for the price you want to pay but be prepaired for the project to take 5 - 6 times longer than planned, be of poor quality and have a great tailgate warranty.
james
In a case like that, you need to provide more than just numbers to set the scenario. I had a face off liek that a few years back, and I answered, "I'm sure you will be happy with his work, he is a good man."
But what I was thinking is that I had learned that the customer was a cheap shot kind of guy - looking for price more than quality. I already knew the competitor he spoke of and while he was - and is - a good amn, his helpers were gettting far less money than mine and were far less skilled, so hwe was getting what he was looking for.
Another advantageous top me part of that scene was that once the competitor was well ensconced in this cheapo job, he was too tied up to take on a far more lucrative job that I got a little later. A quality builder knowes his prices and markets up front and does not need time to review and re-bid. He has confidence in his price and systme, knowing already that he is a fair value and not to be taken down in price.
That is something for Bob to be aware of here. The builders eager to 'bargain' or 'sharpen their pencils' do so because they are hngry for the work. the client needs to know WHY they are so hungry. Is it because of timing, a growth mode, or due to lose of business from poor quality workmanship?
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I could not have said it better. Every time I have been involved in a negotiation where bidders were pitted against one another after a competitive bid, I have lost the job and been glad of it.
The exception was when the owner called to tell me that he wanted me to do the job but needed to reduce the cost by 50k. I submitted suggestions that would do that, he accepted some of these and we quickly reached a satisfactory agreement.
WOW! I knew by phrasing the question the way I did I would get some animated responses. Thanks guys, my real intention (a number of you hit upon it) was to get the feel of how gc in the the residential arena reacted versus commercial guys(I used to sell commercial insurance, and I can tell you for 100% certain each of your acount were shopped from insurance company to insurance company...bidding if you will...in order to get you the best deal. Why is it ok, even encouraged there but here the overall tone I got from the majority ofyou was negative when it came to you taking less profit?) . I surely got that! Our objective is to build a high quality house but, how is someone not in the industry really able to know a fair price given a certain level of quality? I know I need to have faith and confidence in the bidding process and in the participants of it. However, with this large of a project (to us anyway) my level of trust only goes so far. I was not prepared to and will not pit one gc against anothers bid (that is cheesy...although once again think of your commercial insurance guy ..did you do it??).
The value engineering a number of you mentioned is in our plans. In a nutshell, I am interested in getting a quality home built for as little as possible by a quality builder ( I do want the gc to make a fair profit which is why I mentioned "bid he is happy with" but I dont need to overpay). I was simply wanting to understand the thought process a gc goes through if a potential "employer" asks him to take a 1-2% "paycut".
As a non builder all of your input was very helpful and I sincerely appreciate it. Your continued suggestions and opinions are always welcome!
Bob
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how is someone not in the industry really able to know a fair price given a certain level of quality? Get 3-4 bids from reputable contracors. If all the bids are within a reasonable spread, that's a fair price. One that's very high or very low is suspect. Maybe he missed something or misunderstood the scope. Maybe he's bidding high cuz he really doesn't want the job.Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Your comparison to insurance sales is not valid.
A policy is the same all over as long as it stipulates cost and coverage in detail. Printing it on better paper and delivering it to mne in a limo might make a better impression but it won't change the value of the policy.
But the quality built into a house is based on thousands of large and small details.
A more valid comparison is to an automobile. Now - I can't see the bid request and spec sheet you provided, so I can only imagine what these bids are based on, but you could be comparing a small Ford to a Jaquar and the bids might reflect that in the numbers but not in the details.
That is why some here have asked you pointed questions, in hopes of answering your Q accurately.
So what's with this "My real intention..." crap. Why not say so in the first place? My tone is getting more negative too. I like people who are a little more up-front when I'm trying to help them out.
How do you get value engineering in a set of plans anyway? Maybe there's something I need to learn here.
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Bob,
Most guys here have been asked to sharpen the pencil a time or two. When you have no work coming in you have to do it. I don't know about other areas but in our market we are as busy as we have ever been. No need to sharpen the pencil. As a matter of fact if someone asked me that I would make up an excuse to RAISE the price. All sorts of alarm bells go off. That is if I have pity on you and put you on our schedule. You see we have taken on exactly 1 new customer since May 01. And turned down work every other day. Todays score? 2. Yesterdays score? 1
And a 1 or 2% pay cut? Most builders work on 4-8%. So you are asking for a half to a quarter of total profit axed before they even start. And that is just the average builders. Maybe you select a below average builder that doesn't know he is broke before he starts your job. And then never does finish his last job (yours) before BK.
Remember most of the money that goes to the GC keeps right on going. To subs, suppliers and trades.
Find a relationship first. Then worry about the money. If the relationship is right you can work out the money part.
Good luck
I agree with Piffin that insurance and home building are very different. First, builders and remodelers are usually constrained by time more than anything else. We have a finite number of hours per week/month/year to produce. An insurance agent is not effected the same way by an increase in volume. I can't say for sure, but my guess is a typical agent could increase his volume by 10% with a relatively small increase, if any in time necessary to run his business. So there is a greatly reduced motivation to sell a job at a reduced profit because of the missed opportunity.Secondly, as Scrapr mentioned a builders salary is typically less than 10% of the cost of the job. If you reduce the job price by only 2%, you've cut his pay by one fifth. You can imagine how eager he would be to do this.Finally, my personal feeling about "sharpening your pencil" is to never do it. If I drop my price by 10% just because you asked me to, doesn't that mean my original price was 11% higher than I thought the job was worth? I know some don't agree with this way of thinking but when I give you a price the only way to reduce is to change the scope of work.
Jon Blakemore
Thanks for the reply. I got the message loud and clear!! Rely on the bidding process and the gc preparing them!
Thanks to all!
While biddiing out custom home we spec out building matericals, include cut sheets of details and more important we place a set amount on fixtures. I allow the home owners to shop for plumbing, light cabinets and floors with set amount. So far it's a split with home owners who stay with budget and ones who spend more for these itiems. I've also had a few homeowners who want to tackle parts of a project there self. While these things can lower prices most cannot do this and meet the schedule. Again we have parts of the contract that address this.
You may do much better if you nail down your finishes (cabinets, counters, fixtures,stairs,siding,trim, etc.) and specifications now and get everything in writing.
Many bids are not very clear as to what you are going to get when it comes to those things and it is left to the discretion of the builder when the time comes to purchase those items.
Of course there will be an opportunity to upgrade to what you thought you would get for an added cost. With a little homework now you can avoid all that later.