GC (or Owner as GC; or both) has a project. Subs bid the project. A sub gets the project by being low bid and also within schedule. No problem, right? The way construction is supposed to work, right?
So, one sub is from out of town (3 hours). They work 4 tens for 40 hours per week (they are also paying $40 in motel & $40 per diem).
What do you do if the GC (or owner, etc.) says, “What are they doing taking 3 day weekends? I want at least 5 day weeks!”? Let’s go ahead and assume that the complaining party is not very reasonable, or amenable to reason. Let’s also assume that the project is as on time as it can be. Let us also assume that the project is on budget. Oh, and to spice up the argument, let’s say two more things. One, that the work is essential to the project completion. Two, that the project is also a small project for the sub (around half of the next nearest smaller project).
Opinions? (Please remember that, A. I’m being hypothetical, and will neither confirm nor deny anything–for obvious reasons; and B, if, in the event it had any sort, shape, or similarity to reality, I’d be in the middle–as in between windshield and bug). Oh, and if I were foolish enough to be in this fix, I would, of course, be looking to bail as fast as I could.
Replies
Mac,
First of all, I want to say that I am speaking as a homeowner, but I am also a business owner (automotive related business) that uses subs at times.
That being said, I really do not think it is any of the GC's or homeowners business...as long as the work is on schedule and in budget.
Bill K
I agree. With further understanding that if the reason for such project acceleration was outside the subs control, I would pay a premium for the overtime/extra hours.
The customer doesn't work overtime without being paid (not on this labor level that is), and neither should the sub. I believe there's laws about that.
You asked for opinion. That's all this is. No basis in legal precedent or otherwise.
The GC/owner has no leg to stand on. No impact on schedule, within budget and, presumably, the quality of the work is within expecations by all parties. The only place where I've seen a 4 tens 40 hour week affect a project is if on that 5th day, there's a necessary reason for the subject sub to be on site for coordination issues. That can usually be worked out given adequate notice and adjustment to contract agreements.
In your purely "hypothetical" situation, was the GC/owner aware of the work week schedule ahead of time?
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
was the GC/owner aware of the work week schedule ahead of time?
In a nutshell, No. Made some dark comments about that not having been "revealed" in the contract process.
Let us also state that gc-as-owner wants "strict" casualness in hte trade contracts--wants strict adherennce to the price, by a casual approach to changed/omitted/never specified portions of the contract (yes, that is eating the cake and having it too).
You are being wonderfully hyper-hypothetical almost to the point of being super-allegorical or semi-apocalyptic in your aversion to identifying the characters.
Does the president know about you? LOL
Anyway, if the subs are fulfilling to erms of the contract, the owner has no say in the matter. Further, if he is trying to dominate the scedule, he is violating one of the primary details the IRS looks at in determining whether these are subs or employees.
No need for spicing things up. All work is essential to the completion. Some maybe more than others, but all is necessary. I the contract does not specifiy details of how essential, this concept only exists in the eyes of the owner
Excellence is its own reward!
You are being wonderfully hyper-hypothetical almost to the point of being super-allegorical or semi-apocalyptic in your aversion to identifying the characters.
Piff, admit it, you're realy Tom Wolfe (no one else would link super and allegorical in one mere sentance . . . <g>)
And, I have a very real fear of involving BTers in what is likely to be very ugly court cases; or of the ramifications of documentary evidence of inadvertant accessory-before-the-fact behaviour. In small words, I'm soliciting practical opinion, while also probing to see if anyone else has been "burned" this way (beyond any subs who may or may not have walked into this meat grinder already).
Does the president know about you? LOL
Never got a letter starting "Greetings from the President," no. May or may not be in possesion of letters of Presidential Recognition. At least not this month.
Anyway, if the subs are fulfilling to erms of the contract, the owner has no say in the matter. Further, if he is trying to dominate the scedule, he is violating one of the primary details the IRS looks at in determining whether these are subs or employees.
What, you mean there might be employers out there who would place all employees on salary without any written employment policies? Or to hire "sub contractors" to near-exclusive work requirements? Or an employer who has no idea that certain terms-of-art have legal meaning, and might constitute fraudulent or otherwise illegal employement? Shocked, am I, shocked, verrily! Heaven forfend that any poor shmo should suffer so in durance vile! (Ok, so if it were that nice of a situation, I'd have to trade "up" with that poor wretch, and probably have to borrow the $20 . . . )
Remind unreasonable owner that you can only tell employees what time to work. Does he want to be an employer of construction help? I DOUBT IT!
If he thinks he does, tell him to provide all the necessary proofs of insurance, etc.
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
he want to be an employer of construction help?
Of course not, peons are for others to associate with (GCs add no value to a project, they only add additional costs and make unreasonable demands and fail to keep reasonable schedules; the only thing worse are architects & engineers).
screw the GC.
Sub's a sub.
I can work one 40 if it'll fit into my schedule and not keep the family/neighbors awake!
JUst politely point out...that as soon as the "GC" starts dictating things like start and stop times....they're responsible for paying the taxes that shoulda been with held...just like a "real" boss.
Till then .....get outta my.....I'm working over here.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
> ...screw the GC.
....
> ....I can work one 40 if it'll fit into my schedule
Weeelllll, ,,... I don't think I'd disagree with you in *principle*, Jeff, but in all practicality, the schedule on a multi-trade job isn't really yours to command. If you're a subcontractor, that is. In all fairness, I think any HO or general needs to consult with and be aware of his/her subs work load and probability for staffing the job within the time frame outlined by the contract. On the other hand, if your say, an electrician, and you come in and work round the clock for three days straight doing the rough in, that might lead to some problems with coordinating the roughin work with some of the other trades.
All totally "hypothetical" by all means... (grin)
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
the schedule on a multi-trade job isn't really yours to command.
A good point. Particularily apt if the schedule is realistic. A particularily nagging impression is the one of "hurry up for hurry up's sake." Especially as I get to be the accelerator pedal.
Non-hypothetical point: I hate my job, and am taking the next one I can land (clean cannot afford to be unemployed).
Sure it is Dennis.
As a sub...everything's up to me.
sure, a "general" schedule should be agreed upon before the start...and I include a general outline in my contract if the GC is unfamiliar with me......but my schedule as a sub isn't at all dependant on the other subs.
As a rule, I don't like to work on top of other subs anyways. Even with a multi-sub job....there's an order that'll get things done most efficient.
As it is ......I'm pretty easy to get along with and work with. The FT crews I usually sub along side work 7:30 to 4pm. I "generally" work 8 to 4. House I'm in now the lady said she prefered 8:30 at the earliest ...so 8:30 to 4:30 has become the new hrs.
Wasn't up to the GC at all ......just me showing a little respect for the HO.
Last week they hit the remodeling wall....asked the GC if any way possible to get all the worker guys the hell outta their house asap.....after a cash bonus was mentioned ....I said count me in for 8 to 6 and 10 to 4 on Sat's.
Once again......I changed the schedule .....but by my own accord. Not up to the GC at all......all he can do is ask. I coulda said no and still slept well at nite.
GC's can ask favors ....they can't dictate the schedule.
BTW ...the GC that asked for and got the favor.....just gave me Fri's final check today.....not 100% sure he'll be around Fri .....so he said a coupla days early wouldn't kill him. I'm to call him Fri afternoon to let him know if I made the deadline and "qualified" for the bonus.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jeff -
I'll confess to not being at all familiar with how things work in the residential construction arena, especially remodeling. My experience in construction is in the large scale commercial type projects. So in all probability, I should not venture into the discussion with respect to scheduling. You see, the General Contractor for whom I worked for close to eight years, *dictated* the schedule to the subs: Here's when we need you on the site and here's how much time you have to do your portion of the work. Period.
Don't like it? Can't staff the job?
Don't bother submitting a price when the next job comes along.
Oh - and the general *always* owned any and all float in the schedule. So work your butt off and make us some more money.
Subs seem to get beat up more often than not. I'm not part of that scene any longer and glad I'm not.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
You and Jeff are both right. The difference is that the GC lays out the rules at the outset and the sub bids the job accordingly (or not). In this case the owner is nervous and changing the game in the middle. The sub doesn't have to play that game if he doesn't want.
JUst politely point out...that as soon as the "GC" starts dictating things like start and stop times....they're responsible for paying the taxes that shoulda been with held...just like a "real" boss.
Kind of surprised that the sub in question hasn't done so. Even more surprised that the sub's legal department has not sent a reminder of how business is done. (Without getting specific, in units, this job is .96 units, the previous job the sub was on was 17 units, the other concurrent job is 22 units, their next smallest job coming up is a mere 11 units remodel--if that helps lend perspective {this entire project would be 3 units}.)
So, maybe I should have said that I am sore afraid of being between windshield an a hornet's nest . . .
On price, On schedule, and quality work that's compliance to a tee. Tell the owner adding premium time to the 1st 3 might get you to put in an extra day or two. Homeowner GC = red flag. Sounds like a guy in need of a tune up.
Also, say the guys work 5 eights, not 4 tens. Still 40 hours per week. But add another $40 motel night per week, and another $40 per diem (per sub's employee).
Still 40 hours per week. But add another
Wish it were only that. Pretty sure wishes-he-was-napoleon really wants more hands (double the crew) for, say, six days a week. For the exact same price (after all they promised! <stamp not-so-little-feet>)
The fact that the sub has other projects, and larger projects (read more profitable by way more than half) does not compute with l'emporeur. Or that the work beying installed (ok, I'll say it, but no body can repeat it; glass curtain wall) has no margin of error, and is complicated enough that only one PM can be in charge. A second crew, therefore, would not get the work done faster.
Homeowner GC = red flag. Sounds like a guy in need of a tune up.
Owner=GC is no better. Might have to admit, under appropriate cross-examination, to having used the term "bozo" rather than the term "tune up."
Cap
A place that I worked at was once in that very position.
We always worked 4 tens, and they demanded that we be there on Fridays. For the most part we didnt do it but then the boss gave in and had some of us work the Fridays. I got OT so didnt matter to me but I'm sure the boss hatted paying it. I wouldnt think they could make you if everything was being done that needed to be done.
Doug
A place that I worked at was once in that very position.
Ok, not quite so bad as an office ing DFW area that required uncompensated o/t; but billed hours at o/t rates. They did have a written employee policy, though. Beer in boardroom on the 1st friday of every month at 1700--not too much though, back to desks by 1800! And, after 5 years, you were elligible for the profit sharing plan (but not vested for 3 more years).