Hey all, I’ve been asked to give a labor and materials price for installing cedar shingles on repeat client’s home, waterfront only. As I am in coastal Alabama, this is new to me, and all I have to go on is the RS Means guide.
They state $130/square materials cost and $139/square labor cost. This seems a little low to me. Also, I know of a few manufacturers who offer panelized systems and alternative materials like fiber cement. The client is not opposed to these (except vinyl products), so long as they can be stained to match the rest of the house when that is done. Currently the house has T1-11 and cedar trim. I am planning on wrapping the T1-11 with felt prior to shingle installation because the plywood serves as both siding and sheathing.
If you all could give me some rough figures, names of suppliers, installation tips, etc. it would be greatly appreciated!!
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Replies
#1 (blue label) Western Red Cedar shingles here (from the mill) are about $140 a square, so I would think the material price is a little low.
As far as install labor, that seems low, too, especially if you have cutouts around windows and trim, any sloped endwalls, flashings for decks, windows and doors, outlets, light fixtures, etc.
And you would be best off to dip, or backprime your shingles before you install, or buy prefinished (all adds to the mat'l cost).
The F/C shingle panels are quite expensive, relative to real wood, but they go up a little faster, but, again, it depends on how much trimming, fitting and flashing you have to do.
To be more specific, there's approx. 4 squares of material, not counting the 3 6068 patio doors--I figure not subtracting for the doors will leave me with a waste allowance. I also haven't decided whether to use copper hand drives (slow and expensive) or HDG gun nails/staples (faster but prone to staining).
I've checked online with four FHB advertisers: Hardie, Certainteed, Bear Creek Lumber, and Michigan PreStain. They gave general specs, but no pricing. I figure I'll have to order them through a local distributor anyway.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Means is structured more for commercial work. Forget it.A squre a day is doing pretty good, especially for inexperienced, depends though whether pneumatics or nad nailed too. figure your cahrges based on your hourly for that kind of productionI use maibec prestained sanmded and requared for about $200/square
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hey thanks everyone...for me and three guys my labor costs are about 65/hour (w/o markup), so that's close to 500 a day. With two of us experienced and two of us not, I would expect that 2-3 days would be enough for 4 squares. There will be no weaving in the corners, just butting into cedar corner boards (the rest of the house will remain T1-11).
I will call my suppliers tomorrow and find out about the shingles. I know the local Lowe's has shingles or shakes one, but I don't trust them to be a quality product.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
jason... 4 sq ?.. i'd carry 8 man-days... based on 30 years of working with all different homes and all different carpenters
if you beat it, it's gravy... if you don't .. you're covered
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
sounds right
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Aight Mike, curse me for being young, but does 8 man days equal 2 actual days with a four-man crew?
BTW, I gave her the bid: $2200 for 4 sqs 18" #1 Perfections w/ 7 1/2" exposure...couldn't get a price on R&R's. That includes two layers of 15# felt underneath and HDG/copper nails.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
jason... it's one guy 8 days..
or two guys 4 days...
or 3 guys 2.67 days
or 4 guys 2 days
or 5 guys 1.67 days
or 6 guys 1.33 days
or 7 guys 1.14 days
or 8 guys 1 day....
whatever crew you want to throw at it....
watch your staging rating though with the bigger crewsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
5 guys... 1.67 days.... betcha end up paying 'em for 2 days
I'd be scared to have a large crew on it anyway. You got guys working all over the place and when they try to make their courses line up with the other guy's work... fergittaboutit.
obvious exageration on my part...just illustrating MAN DAYS
on a long wall we MIGHT have four guys.. two weaving corners.. and two running the body.. but most of the time it's just two guys..
as for coursing.. our SOP is snap a reference line all the way around the house after it's stripped and papered in..
then we make up our STOREY POLE.. to adjust the coursing to all of the architectural features.. then we give each guy a storey pole to keep them alignedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You are about dead on.
I can gun on a roof ( easy pitch) about a sq and a half a day..using 24'' with a 7.5 to the weather. weaving felt drops that to a square.
A day is 6 on the roof , 2 travel and setup the comp and hoses.
I still cannot make any time in a valley..it very well can double my time cutting the shakes. I wish i knew a secret to speed that part up. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I kidnapped the runaway bride..her eyse weren't like that in the before pics.
how much you wanna pay for the secret?never mind, I'll loan it to you, just 'cause I am so cool.;)You break open a few bundles and fish out the wide ones. use one to mark out a pattern for the angle.Now you know what the angle is, you take your armful of wide singles down to the radial arm saw or the Sliding miter saw, and whack them all the same way.
Carry them back up to the roof, and start laying out from the valley, instead of into it. Cost - twenty minutes to whack off the whole armful - then the laying is same speed as rest of house. Except for the time to place the valley metal, of course.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
LOL, put eight guys on four squares and watch them getting nails out of each others pouches and picking the wrong noses... That would be some crowded! Figures I was using werre for five ionch exposure. 7.5" would make bnetter time for sure
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
How do you keep your courses to a line? Stringline? Chalk line? Or tacking on a strip of straight wood, then placing the butt ends right atop?
With the strip method you can align a nice wide run of shingles, then fire away with the staple gun. You are left with a few nail holes where your strips were tacked on, but what the heck.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
You don't have to be left with the nail holes. Use a couple of strips of 1/4" plywood as hangers and hang the board from the sheathing above. If you attach the strips to the front of your 1x4 you can get the shingles in behind them.
Now, why didn't my siding subcontractor think of that! I'll bet you could extend the concept, adding a "gage hook" block to the end of each plywood hanger, to hook on at the course below, so the whole rig could go up, course by course, without much need for measuring and snapping chalk lines.Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
Just rip it to five inches wide. The board is your gauge.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
No need to leave nail holes behind. When we use a set strip like that, we nail strips of AL to hang it. They fit up under that next course of shingles and you nail it right near the edge with a 4d shingle nail. After the course is done. a couple whacks downward with a hammer wil tear the AL from around the nail and you reset it again.if I'm working alone, I hand nail and use my roofing hatchet with gauge. I will rechaulk a line about every six courses. best I've done in a day is three squares hand nailing.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
And if hand nailing, what kinda nails?Gene Davis, Davis Housewrights, Inc., Lake Placid, NY
I order them as
4d fine shingle nails.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
galvanized
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
rc.... 5d HDG box.... with SS for face nail
wc... 3 1/2 d HDG shingle nail .... with SS for face nailMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Hey thanks again all for the replies...it's been over two weeks since I talked to the lady and she hasn't called me back, but the knowledge may come in handy again some time soon.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Huh? 3 sq a day hand nailing? C'mon P..that is hard to follow...I swear at 2 sq with a gun is a "DAY"..show me how ya do that.
I put 3 sq of copper pans with a buddie on wednesday...and ridge cap..with 1 hr travel each way it took us 3 hours on the roof..one copper pan is 20" x 120"..standing seam.
And you can hand nail cedar at a sq. in 2.6 hrs? show me. I must be really slow. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Viva!!! Chileo" !!!! The man with a golden heart. And a Thumbs up attitude.
Hey, what can I say? We all get in a good day once in a while! That was a fourteen hour day for sure, but I was hot, singing and swinging. A typical sidining day is one square off and on, cleaned up. That's for me, I don't expect anyone to keep up. I hired on a crew once and another guy told the boss a week later, "I don't want to go out with him. I can't get anywhere near that whirlwind"Some other good days I have had are six squares of shakes with a stapler, interwoven with felt, and a day with 27 sq of 240# three tabs on a 3/12 hand nailing.I think my best day hand nailed shake job was just under five squares.it's not just the hand speed, it is being able to trick your mind so you can ignore the pain, and in having the stamina to avoid long breaks in the rythm. And there are times when you get what athletes call, "in the flow" when all the juices are running just right.Some of those days are probably also why I have so much arthritis pain now too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
My hat is off to ya..that is some flying.
I'd like to specialize in not wearing me self out next yr.
I don't know how that will play out, but I feel a need for a reprieve from being too wore out to work on my own shack after fixing everyone elses. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Iffin ya cain't spell it, don't eat it
There are white and red cedar shingles and they come in a variety of grades, sizes and levels of preparation. If you don't have any experience with cedar shingles, you would appreciate the ones that come squared and re-butted. These eliminate a lot of the shingle to shingle fitting that is required with non-R&R shingles.The product is more expensive but you save in labor.
Here's a couple sites that may help.
http://www.cedarbureau.org/techinfo/wallmanual/wallmanualcontents.htmlhttp://
http://www.woodsiding.com/prices.htm
http://www.lakesidelumber.com/siding/siding-shingles.htm
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thanks...the first URL didn't work but the other two have some good info...I'll check them out in detail later tonite.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
That first URL has some garbage on the end but should work if you clean it up. The cedarbureau.org website is worth checking out.
I've installed a whole lotta #1 blue label WRC shingles. If I'm putting up felt, weaving corners in/out, and cutting around sills and trim, 5" exposure, I can get about 1 square up per day myself. Stuff up high is slower. I'm the kind of fastidious carpenter who takes the time to put up 1x ledgers to set the shingles on, and I block plane some edges when they look too goofy. If you just chalk lines and blow 'em up it would go faster. Use nice R&R prefinished shingles and it goes even faster.
The best tool I've used is a medium crown stapler (1-1/2" SS staples). A siding nailer would work fine too.
im charging 225 a sq.tyke
Just another day in paradise
Side wall shingles should be figured at 1 sq. per day per man. At $139, You'd be making$17.37 per hr. That doesn't seem right!