So, yesterday I started looking for someone to finish my basement. Straight finish job with HVAC & basic bathroom. No structural changes, no cabinetry or bars. I had remember spotting a couple of Google results where they advertised a $/SqFt. Ok, sure this makes it easy to track as I know how much basement I have (screw the county’s value).
I get a visit yesterday, but his bid will not come before next week. Ok. Got a call this morning and he quoted over the telephone his ‘turnkey’ price of upper-$50K’s for a straight finish. Got a second call today and its $25-30K. Both of these knew the square footage, elevations, etc.
I get a third call from someone that made the first two seem a lot more reasonable and I almost choaked on my Brat when he mentioned $155-160K without lighting fixtures, mechanicals, of bathroom, finish-carpentry/customer cabinetry … LOL .. and I thanked him and suggested he stop wasting telephone on poor slobs like me. 🙂
This is a little entertaining. And I am cnducting this so far as a hire-out GC job.
Replies
have you called the Pink Panther?
Corning-Owens(?) supposed idly has a refinish the basement system, been curious about it.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
Got two different people coming out tomorrow to estimate. Plus, thinking of handling the individual contractors. Found a rough carpenter to handle the framing. Know the HVAC and drywaller I could use. Thence need an electrciain, plumber, painter, finish carpenter and the acid-stain concrete finisher (have a selection in mind).
EDIT: Well, I thought I had a third GC coming out tomorrow, but he backed out. He said where I live it was too far for him or his workers to travel. He's 40-minutes from me, and his business is in the area where I've got good friends. I am only 25 miles outside of the 'perimeter'.
Edited 5/7/2008 3:54 pm ET by Nuke
Would you be willing to pay him a premimum to drive an extra 40 miles, or even 25, everyday over, say an eight week period, plus the lost production time or longer hours?
go to there web site.It's not all that goo looking.
They've been marketing the hell out of it around here with 'come see your neighbors new basement' postcards.It's a neat idea and, functionally, it makes a lot of sense. But I'm not sure I'd call it a 'finished' basement. More of a 'livable' basement. ;0)
You dont mention square footage but I just got under cut on almost the exact job you describe.
We came in at about 20k.
I'd love to meet the guy with balls big enough to tell you $155-160 without finishes. He must be booked up for the whole summer so he decided to shoot high just for the sake of saying something.
Approximately 1200 square-feet. Four rooms and a bath.
Then I dont think 25-30k is out of the question.
160K/1200◻ft =133$/◻ftnot too big ballsespecially for quality/higher end work.are there plans involved??without plans anyone who is worth his rate is gonna pad some..
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
$133/ sqft without finish items. In my book i'd call that a little pricey.
anyone worth anything won't start the project without plans on a 1200 sqft basement
Yep!One mans medium grade is another mans junk and one mans high end is another mans minimum standard.without plans or specs 160K could be low....
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
Ohh, is this the same Nuke that finds a dark cloud over every situation? Boy would I love to land this project ... not!
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
What the h3ll does that have to do with it?
Oh, you only cater to the meek timid clients. I gotcha. :)
Do you have plans with all finished items specified?
Without it, there is no way to give you a price. If people are giving you these prices over the phone it's a joke.
Either way.
25-30k to finish 1200 SQFT is not enough, no way you're getting anything of quality. You're going to spend 6-7 just on floor mid-range carpet
50k is even a bit cheap IMO
We're typically between 55-65 SQFT for what I'll call a mid-level quality finish.
The upper end isn't out of the world depending on what you're getting for the $.
We'll drive down there and do it for $155k as long as it's less than 2,500 SF.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Ok, I'll do it for $154.9k but he has to supply the beer."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'll under-bid both of you at 145k....
and I'll supply my own beer.
First, of the now eight people I have spoken to and the four that have come out, none of them asked for nor required any specification sheet or drawing. And just because one wouldn't drive it doesn't mean someone else wouldn't. In fact, one one of the eight said this.
Secondly, I have only made one requestion: no flooring. Not looking for crown molding, or anything 'extra' like a wet bar, sauna, etc., and even offered to partial the job (hold off on, say, the bathroom).
So, far, I've entertained bids from $20/SqFt to $160 SqFt. I think that on my poor budget in Buford, GA I just may need to handle the individual subs on my own and not pay a GC's salary for 2-3 months. Remember, I work for the evil empire, and they don't do overtime.
I now need to find someone to come haul off building materials for when this was a DIY project. Figure since no sub or GC will use them, I need to dispose of ~200' 12/3-wg electrical wire, ~50 electrical boxes, ~40 outlets, and ~15 switches, a pallet's worth of Miraflex insulation, ~110 sheets of 4'x8' drywall, 8-10 sheets (4'x8') 3/8" MDF (were for soffit access panels), and an assortment of other lumber materials.
I then need to have someone come out and remove what framing I put in there (minus the LVL beams I did in 2003) and haul it off. I wonder if I could donate it to someone.
First, of the now eight people I have spoken to and the four that have come out, none of them asked for nor required any specification sheet or drawing.
I would typically not ask for a specification sheet or drawing. With the vast majority of basements I look, I have to create the spec sheet. I will ask the client if they have any specific ideas and how they want to use the space, but a spec sheet would surprise me very much. Besides, if you don't want built-ins, wet bar, home theater, etc., your specs should be pretty simple to come up with. It's not like you're asking the contractor to design and build a new home.
Secondly, I have only made one requestion:
Is that a question you have had to ask twice?
I now need to find someone to come haul off building materials for when this was a DIY project.
Check for local Habitat for Humanity store. I imagine that, being in GA, you would have one close by. They will take donations and you can get a tax deduction. They might even send a truck to pick the materials up.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I wonder if I could donate it to someone.
Consider Habitat for Humanity. In my area they have a "Re-Store" where they accept donations and then turn around and sell them to help fund their program. In some cases they will even pick up donations depending on the staff they have available.
Plus, it is a tax deduction for you.
Try searching for a Habitat for Humanity Re-store in your area, they'll take the material. If you don't have Habitat may want it for a build.
You could also try Craigslist.
If you want your project to run smoothly you need a set of prints and a specification sheet otherwise you're just opening yourself to a lot of uncertainty and un-necessary delays.
Edit: Most contrators should be able to generate both the drawing and the spec sheet, if not, ask yourself if you want to work with them? If you want to get true apples-apples comparisions you're better of spending the money on someone designing one set of plans you can hand out and selecting the specs for carpet, lighting, wall finish, trim etc.
My opinion anyway.
Edited 5/10/2008 1:41 pm ET by CAGIV
Here's some drawings for you...no charge.
We're normally anywhere from $70 - $110 sq. ft. by the time all is said and done (we're in Georgia as well, Forsyth Cty).
J
Here's a couple more in pdf format.J
Jay123what design program are you using?
Hi ziftWe use Chief Architect...Mike Smith spoke so well of it on this board(thanks Mike!) that we started using it about 5 years ago.Great program...I'm a carpenter and had never used cad before...pretty intuitive after spending awhile with the training videos and time on the users forum ...http://chieftalk.com/J
Jay,How long would it take for you to crank out those drawings? Assume the measurements are already complete.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Hi JonThanks. After measurements (usually 1-2 hours using a laser tape measuring down to the 1/8") I draw an "existing floor plan" and depending on the size of the project that usually takes me anywhere from 3-6 hours.We then move on the the "proposed floor plan" stage and I can have anywhere from another 20-40 hours depending on how many revisions, complexity of cabinetry, trim etc.On the previous attach. (Reilly, rev 1) I probably had about 12-15 hours into the "proposed" plan, after I had done the "existing" plan.Here's another existing and proposed plan.J
I thought it was Chief. Nice work.Do you put 40 hours into a drawing without a "Design Contract"? I'm using Chief too but I don't know why it would take 3 hours to get the existing conditions into a floor plan. I'm thinking it would take ten minutes to create the walls and locate the stairs. I'm thinking you must add some significant detailing in the existing conditions. Could you elaborate a bit about where that time is being eaten up? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks Jim. And yes we get a design agreement first, usually anywhere between $1,200 and $2,500 depending on sq. ft. and amount of detail (cabinets, etc).As far as time goes, I'm no speed demon. It probably doesn't help that I "work" on a 2 monitor system and always have a forum or two or three open on one of the monitors most of the time. No wonder my ADD is so bad.Most of our projects have been in the 1500-2500 sq. ft. range and during the "existing" drawings I get everything down to the 1/8" (walls, door and window r/o's existing plumbing stub-ups etc).Every once in awhile we'll get one that is wide open (few existing interior walls) that I can knock out in an hour or so, but most aren't that quick...for me, at least. I'll usually have a couple hundred measurements that I'm going by on average (yeah, I'm a little anal..always afraid of missing something). I use 11 x 17 graph paper during the initial measuring.I'm also noting where existing water & gas shut-offs are located, existing smoke detectors, etc. Makes life a lot easier during the rest of the drawing phases, and when something gets covered up by sheetrock.J
Ahh...the two monitor system....NOW I UNDERSTAND LOL!I immediately sensed that you are being somewhat anal, but that is probably a good thing, especially because you are being paid for the design! I understand the amount of time that can go into measuring an existing basement and the need for locating the many items that need to be designed around. I think most of the basements we worked on used the "KISS" theory. Intead of designing around water meters and plumbing stacks, we'd just move the wall out a foot and hide everything. The basements we worked on were typically big enough that the homeonwners didn't care. The smaller basements are a different story though. In any event, I think your approach is the right one. You get paid enough to do a fantastic design and presentation and that puts your company in the lead when it gets down to the actual bidding process. What is your closing rate for the construction phase after you deliver those high quality design packages? Incidently, you might consider upping the price on the design. Your work warrants it. We are charging $3500 for a design package and have found that if the concept makes sense, they will pay for one without shopping the price. It's actually kind of fun because the designer and I get to know the client on a signficantly more personal basis. We develop a bond that will be very hard to break once we have the plans ready for bid. That doesn't mean we are going to bid them higher than normal. It just means that we intimately understand the client's needs and desires. That's a huge advantage that others will have to overcome. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
With the amount of time involved, it would make sense to charge more, but it's like pulling teeth to get what we get...especially with every other bozo, er...contractor touting "FREE Estimates!" We're a verrry small business (2 people, myself (cad, carpentry, PM) and fiance (sales, office, etc) + great subs) and do a small amount of work every year. We did about $350k last year and this year looks kind of scary so far...I've had waaay too much time to work in the yard lately. On the plus side, I've got a nice woodworking shop set up and a new lathe to spend some time with ;-) As far as closing ratio...it's about 30% of those who choose to go with the design...should be better (much...we've already got our foot/leg in the door by then, just have to do a better job of selling, selling, selling). One of the things we tout is that regardless if you're getting 3 bids or trying to GC it yourself, etc. you need to have detailed drawings/design work done to be assured of what you are getting built. I actually did an "existing" floor plan for someone in Ohio last year...they sent me graph paper dimensions and lots of pictures. I thought they were kidding about wanting drawings until the deposit check arrived.J
Oh, and last fall had someone from Chicago call about wanting some drawings done...came to about $4,000 (he didn't flinch) but I ended up being too busy to work with his schedule...you know, the ole feast or famine paradox.J
You should always have a backup subcontractors available to handle all the possible jobs, including designs. It's gets a bit dicey but you probably could have grossed a 40% markup an subbed that design out. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Yeah, I don't put anything out of consideration (well, not most things anyway).Right now the fiance is spending a lot of time with Tom Hopkins, Zig Ziglar and Jeffrey Gitomer...should I be jealous?J
That sounds like a great seminar. I'd especially like to hear Gitomer. Does she do your selling or just doing this for personal development?I'm surprised at your 30% closing ratio. I would have guessed at least fifty percent. Why aren't you getting those jobs? Are they going to another contractor or are the people just not doing them? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Actually Jim they are books and dvd's. She does the actual selling. She's come a long way in the past 2 years and knows we have a long ways to go, sales-wise. As far as the closing ratio...yeah it sucks...there I said it, I feel better.For the ones we don't get it's for many reasons...1) costs (either project goes to another contractor or doesn't get built 2) some are going to try to GC it themselves.We try and follow up with these clients(no sales) 6-9 months down the road and we hear all the above. Had quite a few talk about the shiddy job they ended up with.We actually have a good friend of ours coming over today (sun) to sit down and go through some different sales scenarios (play acting) that we're going to video. (cue the 70's #### music).Can't wait...I get to the play the wife. Now where in the hell did I put the wig and my falsies. (and no, I'm not posting the video on youtube...everyone will have to get their jollies elsewhere).J
Practice certainly won't hurt. The closing ratio for those that have spent money on designs seems low. Are you aware of their budget requirements before you start the design? Are you designing to fit that budget? If so, I would think that upwards of 75% would be doing the work with your firm or another GC. How extensive do you discuss the budget prior to the design contract? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
We always bring up budget either on the very first phone call, whether that means talking #'s on that first call or letting the prospective client (p.c.) know we will need to discuss budget #'s on the first visit.Almost without fail, we get..."we don't really know"..so...we discuss previous projects (drawings, pictures of finished job, sq.ft. etc.) and what they have cost along with some rough sq.ft. #'s using a calculator and their idea of what kind of sq. ft. they are looking to finish.We let them know what can bring costs up very quickly such as custom cabinetry, slate tile throughout, etc.We are constantly told that we have the most professional and informational presentation that they have seen (this coming from p.c.'s that are talking to numerous contractors).We've got to become better at sales...period. We have a great product and nothing but happy clients...just have to get better at selling it.J
P.S. Nuke...sorry for the hi-jack...maybe some of this info will be helpful to you.J
"We've got to become better at sales...period. We have a great product and nothing but happy clients...just have to get better at selling it.""We always bring up budget ...Almost without fail, we get..."we don't really know"."If you want to get better at sales, you need to know what you are selling; then you have to focus on that target. When the client calls, are you selling design services or remodeling services? Only you can answer that question. But, if they have called you and told you they want to remodel their basement, they most certainly do have a budget. When they answer "..we don't really know..." you're only job at that time is to help them discover what their budget really is. You explain that as a designer, you can't begin to put the pen to the paper without having a dollar target because it's a waste of time and money. The key to getting that explanation across is to do it with questions, not lectures. Maybe something like this "I know how you feel. A lot of people have trouble understanding their budget. Would you prefer that I design you a basement with a 200k maximum budget or a $50k minimum budget?" This begins to bracket them. By continuing in this line of questioning, you will help them determine their budget. If they are the suspicious type and refuse to state their budget because they think they are going to get ripped off, your job as a sales agent is to explain the flaw in that process...which certainly is an easy thing to do because they are normally going to interview several other contractors. After they display their reluctance to tell their budget, you might ask "A lot of people are reluctant to discuss their budget in the early stages of a sales discussion. We all have fears that we will not get our best deal if those numbers are discussed. I know how you feel, I often do the same thing. I understand that you are interviewing other contractors so even if I know your budget and try to charge you more than the other contractors, won't you just choose them instead of us?" "Aren't those other contractors your insurance against too high of prices?" If they won't let their guard down after that, it's time you do the "takeaway". You say. "Mrs Jones, I wold love to work with you on your project but our time is precious. We can't afford to waste time by drawing up projects that are out of budget for our clients. We don't think it's fair for them because they end up paying us thousands of dollars for a project that can't be funded. Even though we still get paid for doing the drawings, we'd rather not get involved until we can have a fuller understanding of what the goals are. Asking us to involve ourself in a lengthy discussion about a complex project and not knowing the budget is like handing us a map and asking us to get to your house without telling us the address. We have the map but we really don't know where we are going. We won't do that because we care about our clients and don't want to waste their time or money. That's a huge part of who and what we are. Is there some way we can help you figure out how much you really intend to spend to move forward in this project?"That exchange should open up some dialog that gets you to the real budget numbers. Then, you can design to that budget and the actual construction process should reach a higher rate even if you don't do the job. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks Jim...have you been eavesdropping on our sales practice for the last couple of hours? You nailed exactly what we have been discussing here this afternoon...getting to the real budget.I appreciate the input and have printed your last post out for "the boss" to read, thanks.J
It sounds like we are in similar situations. I've been trying to get my designer to spend more time on the initial phone interview. I've been urging her to smoke out the tire kickers and just not set appointments. At the very least, I want her to know the budget before she walks into the appointment. I don't think she's listening to me, but it's her time shes wasting. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hey Jim, do you think I could talk frenchy into moving to GA and take over sales? That would be the ticket. J
No. I already tried to get him to Austin. Don't overlook the opportunity to find someone though. I've got a great hustler right now who is doing just great. She'll probably make more money than me this year. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Nice drawing, but columns @ counters ar way oversized.
I like the columns.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
fantastic!!
No problem...I'll try to get over it ;-)J
Which program do you use to generate your drawings?
See reply #26J
"We're normally anywhere from $70 - $110 sq. ft. by the time all is said and done (we're in Georgia as well, Forsyth Cty)."
Jay, power to you. If you can get the money then you deserve it. I understand about working in Forsythe County, the White Flight county. :) Actually, I am surprised that you are getting that much--I'd have thought it been the buckhead area drawing that much. Curious, what size basements do you find yourself mostly doing (ignoring the extreme-sized customers)?
Hey NukeMost projects are in the 1500-2500 sq.ft. range. Keep in mind also, these aren't basic finishes. Lots of custom cabinetry, many times tile flooring throughout the whole basement, tons of recessed can lights, sliding dimmer switches, theater-data-intercom wiring, good amount of trim, etc.If we were doing a basic finish with mostly carpet, no crown etc. we would more than likely be in the $45-60 sq. ft. range...and believe me we've tried, but without fail you're then competing with the git'r done crowd saying they can do it for $20 sq. ft. and in our experience that's been an extremely hard nut to crack.Oh, and most importantly we always charge enough to do a great job. I'm real big on knowing what my costs are and what we need to charge to be profitable. We use Custom Homebuilders Software (CHS) for accounting/job costing so every last penny of job costs is tracked and I know where we stand.J
And to the op (Nuke), I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, but Georgia finally has a state contractor licensing requirement, so as of July 1st your contractor will need to be licensed by the state to pull your permit (or contract for any project over $2,500.00.
We applied in March of....2006, were approved in May of....2006 and just now recieved our license LAST WEEK. Gotta love the state...hell, our license is probably already expired...doh.
J