here’s a Q that came to me in the role playing thread …
for those that do charge …
Do you feel that “binds” me to the job?
I have in the past, given a price …
but not taken any money down … not for the proposal … and not any upfront money … no materials money … so nothing was there to “give back” …
and then had to walk away from the project. Customers went nuts on one certain occasion …
anyways … can ya walk out “after” you get paid for the proposal?
I know ya can . …. but … can ya?
if it ever came to that … I’d be inclined to pay back the money just to get rid of the psycho’s …
but .. going on the idea that getting paid for the proposal is getting paid for work done …. then that’s not fair.
Has this ever come up?
Just curious … Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Replies
Write the first contract that way. I'll figure out what the heck you want and translate it into something a contractor can get a hold of - at which point I'll be able to actually give you a bid since I can define the scope of work. I'll give you the drawings and task sheets I generate if you don't want me to do the work. You can hand it to whoever you want and pull a permit. I'll charge you X for doing it. That's pretty much the short version of design/build contracts. Emphasis on short.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
In a similar vein, why do contractors tell you they will bid a job, and then THE DAY THE BID IS DUE, tell you they can't bid? As an architect, I try to keep the bid list short so as to not waste anyone's time, and try to pick contractors that have similar overhead, quality, etc. Messes things up when one (or two) doesn't turn in a bid. I realize bids take a lot of time, and are a risk, but why not just decline up front, or when you unroll the drawings and realize the job is not for you? (not to get personal or anything, jeff ) :)
Jeff, I have turned down jobs for whith I got paid for my SCA. My philosophy is different then most contractors. I explain (as stated in The Process) that a Proposal is to a contractor what a "brief" is to a lawyer. A brief is “A document containing all facts and points of law pertinent to a specific case.â€
Well, in construction, a details SCA is the same thing as a brief, but applied to a constructon project. As such, it is a valuable "document" because of it's contents and the time that went into obtaining,/creating the accurate information that are a part of it.
A SCA is a separate "project" so to speak, just as a brief is, or the time a doctor spends examining you with tests. It is separate from the "result" that occurs afterwards, a legal case in court, surgery, or the commencement of constructon project.
Samething goes for when I hire an engineer to see if I can remove a tie beam from the 3rd floor of a 6 story condo building. If the unit owner decides ot to do the project before the engineer does his research of the plans and calculate his stats, I still get an Invoice frm him for ihis time to meet me at the condo, talk to the owner, take measurements (often different from the original plans) and very critical info he needs from which to make a determination. His time and expertise in worth money even at that point, therefore, the Invoice.
And therefore, the SCA Invoice, whether I do the project or not. It's like having dessert with dinner. Even if you have the dessert first and get called away from the restaurant, you still pay for dessert.
I don't know what Sonny's SCA provides, but if you've sold your proposal as a bid, then it seems you have to follow through or you've taken money for nothing. If you've sold your proposal as design, then you've given the HO something for his money. I think the question is whether you've provided the HO with something of value to him, not just for you, and something the HO wanted, not just something that took your time. But this also means that the HO isn't paying another contractor for the same thing, since it makes no sense for the HO to buy the same thing twice. The point of your proposal is to lead to the performance of the work set forth, not to end with the bid. And if you've sold the proposal as a design, then it really isn't a proposal anymore.
But this analogy doesn't carry if there is already a design in hand being given out for bid, because the only purpose then for the proposal is for the contractor to get the job. One of the problems with this discussion, as well as the other threads having to do with this, is that people are talking about proposal for very different types of projects, ranging from extensions to kitchen redos to hanging a door. Since the posts don't always describe the work, we're mixing apples and oranges.
Also, the analogies between contractors and lawyers, doctors and CPAs are nonsense. Legal briefs, tax returns and physical examinations are the services sought by the clients. If the analogy was correct, it would be the same as a HO calling you up and saying build me an extension and if I like it, I'll hire you. I realize that some will want to argue the point, but it isn't going to change anything. It just isn't a correct analogy no matter how badly you want it to be.
SHG
Scott,
If you prepare a Brief for me and I don't like it, do I still have to pay you for it?
If I pay you for the Brief, am I obligated to use you for the rest of the case?
How is A brief is “A document containing all facts and points of law pertinent to a specific case†different from "A proposal is a legal document containing all the facts and details pertinent to a specific project"?
SamT
"If you prepare a Brief for me and I don't like it, do I still have to pay you for it?"
Sure. Briefs don't exist in a vacuum. They are part of litigation. A client hires a lawyer to represent him (in this example, it would have to be in litigation since there wouldn't be a brief otherwise). The lawyer then does whatever is required to litigate the client's case. But clients don't generally like or dislike briefs, and so your question really doesn't have anything to do with what contractors do. On the other hand, if the lawyers brief is incompetent, then he is subject to malpractice or grievance.
But more to the point, if you build an extension for me and I don't like it, do I still have to pay you? Sure. If it doesn't conform to the plans, then that's a different matter. But if you've built what I hired you to build, I don't get to change my mind afterwards. One of the problems with your trying to make this point is that briefs and proposals aren't even close to comparable. You're wasting your time trying to draw the analogy.
"If I pay you for the Brief, am I obligated to use you for the rest of the case?"
You're never obligated to use a lawyer. You can discharge a lawyer at any time, which is part of the deal about being a lawyer, and people change lawyers in midstream all the time. Lawyers are subject to a code of conduct which has been enacted into law, and it provides a right to all clients to discharge a lawyer at will. Unlike contractors, lawyers have no right to enter into a contract with a client that would enable the lawyer to get paid for the entire case whether he does it or not. Lawyers, by virtue of being a regulated profession, give up that right. Contractors, on the other hand, do not.
On the other hand, if a customer sees a contractor building something that doesn't conform to plans or specs, can he fire the contractor? Sure, but the customer needs to have good cause or he will have breached the contract. The better question is whether a lawyer, if the client's a hump or refuses to pay, can walk away from a case. The answer is no, not without court permission. Again, lawyers are subject to rules that don't apply to others. And there are some judges who couldn't care less whether or not a lawyer gets paid. They figure that's the lawyers problem, not theirs. How would you like to work under those circumstances, especially when even unpaid lawyers are still subject to malpractice.
"How is A brief is “A document containing all facts and points of law pertinent to a specific case†different from "A proposal is a legal document containing all the facts and details pertinent to a specific project"?"
You've got to be kidding. One is the work product that the lawyer produces to represent you in the case, the other is a pitch to get a job. That's like saying everything paper with letters and numbers on it is the same thing. It's just silly. A brief is what the lawyer produced, like a new kitchen or an extension. It is not produced to propose that he be hired; it is what he produces to represent his client.
The analogies just don't fly. Next time you get a call from a potential new customer, try making your pitch by telling them that you're just like a lawyer. Wear a blue pinstripe suit. Carry a briefcase. See how it works and let me know.
SHG
Edited 9/21/2004 9:58 am ET by SHGLAW
You've got to be kidding. One is the work product that the lawyer produces to represent you in the case, the other is a pitch to get a job.
Either you can't or won't understand that a proposal is project specific. It must be generated (takes a lot of labor, 10 - 100 hours) for each project. It contains only details specific to that project.
It is not a sales pitch. A sales pitch is generic by definition. A proposal, as I am discussing it, is the work product a contractor, even a different one than myself, uses to estimate and construct your project.
Would you call floor plans a sales pitch? Yet a proposal includes floor plans. How about a materials list showing manufacturer, supplier, model numbers and colors? A sales pitch? Required in a proposal. Work flow diagrams, (schedule, Gantt chart). Sales pitch? Gotta have it in a proposal.
Woould you go to an architect and tell him his plans are just a sales pitch? Why are the identical plans I have to create any different?
The proposal is required before the estimate as the estimate is generated from the proposal. How do you know what your getting if you don't know what I'm going to be doing?
Now I can see where the Estimate can be considered part of the sales pitch as any price offered is part of the sales process.
Calling something that takes me manweeks of labor, years of experience and education, thousands of dollars of reference material, more thousands of dollars of computor tools to produce, specificaly for you, a sales pitch is sure sign of egotism and ignorance.
SamT
"Calling something that takes me manweeks of labor, years of experience and education, thousands of dollars of reference material, more thousands of dollars of computor tools to produce, specificaly for you, a sales pitch is sure sign of egotism and ignorance."
whatever
"A proposal is a legal document containing all the facts and details pertinent to a specific project"?
but is it?
how many different definitions of what is in a proposal do you think are even here in BT, let alone the industry?
_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Hiya Scott...
I've been following this and the the related thread with great interest as it effects my future plans directly. I've been trying, perhaps unsuccessfully, to keep an open mind as I realize it isn't truly a yes/no issue. But I am currently in a business where tremendous numbers of people call or stop in daily to pick my brain for what's taken me 30 years to accumulate and then go traipsing off to a cheaper vendor thinking (inaccurately in general) that now that they are "educated" they are armed with what they need to get it done at a lower cost. My personal feeling is that regardless of the rationale offered, there really is no difference in what a physician or lawyer delivers in the early stages of a business relationship and what a contractor does. I have observed that the issue of whether someone's time has intrinsic value for which compensation is due is all in the eye of the beholder.
A few years back I had a Dr. who came to my office at least once a month, many times, and spent at least an hour asking me very involved and esoteric questions regarding photography. After perhaps ten sessions with Dr. X, I asked him at one point to excuse me while I dealt with another client who also had a lengthy, but revenue generating question for me. Dr. X made his exasperation plain by examining his watch a few times and sighing loudly. When I finished, we had an exchange that went something like this...
"Gee Doc... is there a problem"?
"Well, I do have a meeting scheduled and I was hoping to get these questions answered"
"I see...let me have a quick peek at something Doc" at which point I punched his name into our database and reviewed his very short history of purchases.
"You know Doc, it appears that you've spent say... 20 dollars here in the last three years... and I'd hazard a guess that you've spent about... ten hours here in the last six months alone asking me questions"
"Well, I don't see how that's relevant at all. Aren't you here anyway, to help clients whether it's me or someone else?"
"I am in fact here to answer questions Doc... as I assume you are available to answer questions, albeit by appointment, a luxury I don't have..."
"So, what difference does it make whose questions you answer?"
"You know Doc... that's a good point. So I suppose that means that if I stop by and advise your receptionist that I'm in no hurry and I'd be happy to wait until you have a spare half hour I'd like to ask you some questions, you'll be happy to accomodate me gratis... since you're there anyway and all, correct?"
I'm pleased to say that that was the last I saw of Dr X.
I'll spend vast amounts of time handholding people that demonstrate to me by their patronage that they see value in the knowledge I bring to the table in my field. I promised myself that in my next career I will endeavor to do business exclusively (to the extent I can) with people who have that philosophy. Maybe I will be able to charge for proposals, maybe I won't initially. But throughout your responses there is an undercurrent of "what's right for me isn't right for you" with nothing more than a dismissive wave of your hand that any analogies are "nonsense". Maybe that's why you've gotten some heated replies. I'd still like to hear something more substantive about why specifically you think that the folks here that do charge for their proposals are out of line. Sincerely, I find the debate, when it remains civil, fascinating...
Regards,
PaulB
Hey Paul,
You're gotten into a completely different area, where I think the point is better made than with the proposal argument. If people come to you asking for advise, and you give them that advise, then you have provided the service they asked for and have every right to be paid for you advise. Tell 'em next time, "I'd be happy to give you an answer. My consulting fee is $150 an hour with a 5 hour minimum. I take Visa and Mastercard." They may not pay, but they won't bother you any more. Giving advice isn't the same as making a proposal to score the job.
As a lawyer, I do the same. People want me to give them free advise all the time, and everywhere. Especially parties. I'm happy to quote them a fee, and if I'm in the mood, I may give some free advice. But otherwise, I tell them to make an appointment and we can discuss their situation on the clock.
As for the sense that I'm saying what is good for me isn't good for you, that's not what I'm saying. When potential clients ask me what the fee will be, I tell them. I don't charge them to tell them. So I do the same thing. But I don't represent them first and ask if they'll hire me later anymore than a contractor will build first.
SHG
I understand what you're saying Scott, and at the risk of (further) belaboring the point let me ask you how you feel about the following scenario...
You contact me after seeing work I've done for a friend and are interested in a kitchen remodel. You tell me you like that work and the feedback your friends gave you. You want a kitchen in a certain style, an appliance wish list and have photos illustrating what you're looking for. You have a budget of 50K. You want a proposal with a couple of alternatives of materials, finishes, etc that includes specific costs associated with each. I show you a portfolio of completed projects to illustrate my capabilities and offer further references. You appear to be favorably impressed...
Now, if I advise you that I'd be delighted to provide what you're looking for and explain the time and costs involved and propose a fee of say, $2000 dollars including CAD renderings etc, how would you respond?
Paul
Hi Paul,
The examples are getting better to illustrate the point. As an HO, I might ask you for a ballpark first, but since I have already told you that I have 50 to spend, and assuming you tell me 50 is doable, I think you're now going past the point of estimate and are telling the HO, you have enough to decide if you want me to take the next step, and this step will cost you something to do. That's fair. And you are going to provide him with CAD drawings, and variables, all as requested.
Now, the HO may say to you to wait on it while he meets with some other contractors who were similarly recommended. He already knows that you believe he can do the job for the money he has, so he's not completely blind. And after meeting with the others, he can decide if he's ready to pay you or not.
I think that the HO isn't going to give each contractor $2k to make a proposal. He's really making his decision on who he wants to hire at the point that he pays you for a proposal. So once you get paid for the proposal, you are in fact getting the job, and the proposal isn't a proposal anymore, but the start of the project.
SHG
Glad to hear we're closing in on a workable scenario, Scott ;)
I have a lotttttttttttt of sales experience, although virtually none in selling my remodeling work. To me, qualifying the customer and establishing the basic parameters should be a fairly painless, or at least inoffensive, process that I expect I'll have to do with virtually every new customer. From that point it seems to me the harder work begins, and that's the point at which I would expect to be paid.
Paul
but why not just decline up front, or when you unroll the drawings and realize the job is not for you?
Because ... sometimes ... that just isn't the case. (the part about not wanting the job)
In a hypothetical situation ..... perhaps when the two contractors were finally able to schedule a meeting together, they realized that time was way too short to do all the leg work required that would make for a sucessful project with a new Archy and new customers ....
in this same senerio .... perhaps they thought about trying to cram everything into a weekend ... but also realized that a hurricane was about to blow thru town and they'd both better get their current projects buttoned up before attending to other work ...
they then, may have thought it best to gracefully give notive and bow out of this round, but let the Archy know that if indeed their numbers would still be of any use, that they could indeed make the time needed for the bidding and site meetings with said customer .... all be it after the bid deadline ....
btw ... after the not so quick ballpark, we were still $20K above the high end of the bid range ... with everything else going against us ... timing, mainly .... it didn't seem a smart way to spend a weekend.
as the email said, we'd both still be interrested if you need us. And I'd still like to be sent the other two of the three projects you said may be coming up.
That, and we still have to meet in person.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry