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A different way to look at it…
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I posted this on another forum some time back and wanted to see opinions here also.
I looked at my old posts regarding advice given to tools, and it seems I always seem to say ” Get the biggest, baddest, 12″ slider, man-eater nail gun, best hammer, this is it…Damn the torpedoes (and the cost), you are wasting money if you get anything BUT THIS!
Well, I started to think: What if someone is on a budget or the credit card is trash, or they had everything stolen, and it was important to save a doller here or 10 dollars there. What are some good tools with lots of value that are not necesarily the best, but are worth a lot because of their low price?
Here are some examples of what I was thinking, along the lines of a field carpenter:
Get a 12″ CMS, either a MAK or Dewalt, for about $325. They can do 90% of what you cut, and you save 4 or 5 hundred on a top-quality SCMS.
A Delta or Sears 10″ portable table-saw for $180. Good capacity, lightwight, and $100 cheaper then the Makita, and $320 cheaper than DEwalt. A real steal.
Ryobi cordless tools. Not the best, but certainly wotrth the 50% price reduction over Makita, P-C, Dewalt, or Milwakee.
P-C air guns. About $100 cheaper than Senco. Not as good, but good enough, even for production work. They are a little louder and rough but they get the job done.
A Craftsman 1 1/2 air compresor, the one on wheels, about $190. I reaally like these things, they are cheap, light and will run on an extention cord, which my Rolair will not do.
Those cheap, $36 per pair plastic folding ZAG sawhorses that Home-Depot sells, They are light, strong and the best I’ve used. (I’ve had or made them all, metal, wood, plastic, whatever. These are the best) You need sawhorses to work off of.
“Nailer” brand nail bags. About $80 now and the best combination of weight, pockets, ergonomics and price. I like my Occidental Pro-Framers better, but they were $140, a hefty $60 upcharge.
So what do you guys add to the list? Maybe the most expensive is STILL the best value.
Routers, saws, hand tools, whatever.
Thinking of the new guy, BRENT.
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Replies
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Good idea, but I think young guys find out early that cheaper tools don't last. One of the guys who work for me bought a cheap skill saw and it lasted 3 months.(Ryobi) Sears can still be a good value but some things don't last as long as they should.( Routers don't stand up to everday use) Price discount tool clubs do ok in price but if it breaks what do you do. Don't get me wrong I'm all for saving money but, don't solve a shory term problem and replace it with a long term one.......ie cheap power miter boxs that don't stay set or cut way off out of the box. I thing a lot of guys get in the "toys for boys" route and bought just to have it. Tools have to makeme money by being faster and smarter then something else.
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Brent,
Your kidding right? ROFLOL
FredD
*Actually Fred, I'm not kidding. And I take a little offense at your remark. I'm assuming of coarse that you own every high-grade tool ever made. Bridge-City, Festo, Mafell, Fein. The finest. Power-matic saws and lathes? I hope so, taking into account your statement. Did you buy all this the day you became a carpenter?I'm not being belligerent, I am illustrating a point. If you are low on money, you can still outfit yourself for productivity, even buying and upgrading later as you can afford it. What is it you disagree with on the list? What can you add?These are tools I would recommend as decent quality for the intended results. I too have a shop full of tools I can't recommend, bought by trial and error. The cheap table saw? 5 years old and running strong, and I bought it in an emergency to rip one board. I put a roussou porta-fence on it and it works fine. Not the best but O.K. I also have an $800 Hilti nail-gun that I would'nt wish on my worst enemy, but I was suckered in by the brand name.Anyway, here is a response I posted on the other board... Thanx, and enjoy the cold everyone, Brent.My inspiration for the question comes from seeing a few piece-workers the other day. Thier tools and method of working were terrible. If you are a contractor, or piece-worker, you've seen it before: Tools that consist of an old beat up skillsaw, jobsite ladders, and 50 year old tool belts. They work on thier knees on the ground, and the work reflects it.When they look at our setup they get dejected or hostile because they can't see how they will ever afford the proper tools, and don't realize that we did'nt just go buy 30 G's of stuff yesterday. One of the guys siding a house next door asked how much my chop setup was. I told him about $1400. He's trying to split $900 for the week with 2 other guys, and is in that pit where his work can't improve and his production is low because of his setup. So I told him that instead of buying my Makita 12" slider w/ an A.D.E aluminum table and flipstops, he should go get a Ridgid 10' miter saw, 2 folding sawhorses, and we could whip up a plywood and scrap table that he could build in ten minutes and leave on the jobsite. This gets him updated for about $230, and for piece siding his setup is 95% as good as mine for 1/7 the price. That is value. It will also increase his quality and speed, moving him up to the next step, a nail gun. Get a P-C framer for $300 and the Sears compressor for $190, and you beat my Rolair and Senco by $350, with 80% of the performance.So, even though he may have to throw these tools away in 2 years (and maybe not) he will have earned enough to move himself up into the high quality stuff, and the capacity for more challenging and profitable jobs. I would not trade my good tools for lesser quality, but you have to start somewhere.
*I have had good luck buying used tools. If you don't mind a few scuffs and scratches, you can often pick up a used industrial-duty tool for the same (or less) than a new, light-duty equivalent. Of course, you need to develop a knack for distinguishing a tool that has been beaten and abused, from one that has been well used and carefully treated. Regarding efficiency: Like many people who are still in the process of becoming fully equipped, I find myself saying "if only I had a ...". In the mean time I do the best I can by thinking the project through to find the most efficient approachb given my equipment's limitations.I still haven't bought one of those fancy portable mitre-saw stands. Some time ago I built a knock down table (two 7' 2x4's laid out side by side and intersected by five 3' 2x4's, using half-lapped joints). I set this up on a pair of saw horses, cover with a sheet of whatever is handy, and I have a comfortable platform for the saw, plus extra benchtop space which always proves useful.Steven
*Here are my tips:I buy first rate quality tools. Very few exceptions. You want a bargain? Buy it used. Want a better bargain? Go to a pawn shop. All my Senco Nailers and compressors were purchased on pawn. Some drug starved carpenter wishes he had them back.
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I agree with Brent that for someone scrapping by and trying to get established, a tool costing half as much might do 80-90% of the work of the most expensive. But I think the bigger assist will be through learning techniques, tricks, and the creative use of many jigs. Like making a job site table for the task at hand. Clamping a straight edge on the piece so a Skilsaw can be used in lieu of a SCMS. Combining a straight-edge guide with a adjustable stop for banging out duplicate pieces. How many of us run to get the special router bit (maybe even driving to the store to get one) instead of using a nice sharp chisel to do some plunge cut. Sure it takes 7 minutes instead of 20 seconds, but the time to get the tool, set-it up, run the cord, etc, etc might have been more.
So my advice to the beginning tradesperson is to not envy the pro's tools, but study everyone's techniques. Develop a mindset for creative problem solving by watching others and grativating towards those that have something to teach. The kid with the perspective, "Yeah, Contractor X paid me $0.75 less an hour, but I learned a lot from him." will go far, fast.
-David
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Brent,
I think you've raised a really interesting question that should get a lot of discussion.
If you're starting out, you often can't afford professional-grade tools. I've replaced enough cheap tools to lust after the good ones. Cheap ones are more expensive in the long run. We all know this - but it has been pointed out that in the long run we are all dead. Professional tools perform better. Friends don't let friends buy Ryobi.
Perhaps another approach to the question would be: You are starting out and have $1000 for a tool budget. Where do you spend it? What on? What tools do you buy first? What tools should be pro, what can be starter-grade? A $500 budget?
I'd spend on bags. This is something you live out of and efficency is critical. Besides which, folks get an impression of you from your bags and what is in them. I've tried the Home Depot stuff. It's getting better as they now offer some knockoffs of the Oxy line that offer the same ergonomics in lighter construction, but I like my Oxy lights - however the belt they are on is recycled from one of the HD kits, saving money. (Wish Oxy had a Cordura back belt/bag belt.)
I liked Scooter's ideas on used and pawn. (I'm headed for the phone book to check out pawn shops.) I was checking out nailers at a used tool outlet. Stuff looked like it had been "drug behind a truck" so I passed. But a pawn shop... humm. Might be fresher. Another angle on that is the rebuilt stuff. I have a number of Craftsmen rebuilt tools that Sears was offering and they are all working after all these years. Tool Crib was offering rebuilt DeWalt tools. Garage sales are another possible outlet.
My DeWalt 12" CMS has done most everything I needed for framing. The fixture is mounted on a 2x8 tressel table on horses. Not very spendy - but nicely painted to create an impression of neatness, order, professionalism. While I'd love the high end fixtures, this works. I notice that the trimmer featured in the Dec. issue of JLC is using a 15" Hatachi on a Workmate and his own extension wings. Tell those piece workers to build themselves some horses and tables.
A professional saw - which out West is probably going to be the Skil 77 or 77v. I don't see cheaping out on an essential tool like this. I've driven assorted homeowner-grade saws over the years and don't want to go back to that. Good debate question would be: What is the best homeowner-grade saw - just in case you have to drive one?
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I used to frequent pawn shops and flea markets for tools after all of mine were stolen. I never did recover anything, but I did notice that the people bringing tools in to pawn were not "drug starved carpenters".These guys had probably never worked more than a few days in construction, but the real owners of those tools WERE probably starving carpenters. Tools make money, would any of you pawn your tools for a couple of bucks. I don't think so.
Anyway, it's taken me about three years to replace what had taken me 20 years to collect (for a tool junkie, things could have been worse). I already knew what I needed, but, I had to buy what I could afford. As I upgrade (& hey, who doesn't), there is always someone working around me to take what I don't need off my hands. There's lots of deals out there that are honest. You can learn a lot just by doing your homework. But, new guys beware, seems like every body on this site is tool nuts, myself included. And this is Breaktime, and that's when the old timers can really tell some tales.
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I'd like to introduce a different slant to the tool-quality question:doesn't it matter what type of use the tools will receive? And if other people will get their mitts on them? Some people abuse their tools like they think it is more productive or macho to do so. I find that i can get by with a lower cost tool that won't be used all day long -- say a 9.6v Bosch drill that gets intermittant use, or say a cheaper jig saw, because i dont use one very often. As my tool fund builds up I see that I
think a lot harder before buying, and study the choices based on how I'll be using that particular tool. Yes, 18v. drills are great, but do I want a heavy tool like that for overhead use when a 9.6v or 12v. will do the job and not weigh me down as much? I think everyone has to decide the quality/value/use of each tool for themselves--and probably learn the hard way, a bit along the way.
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I would go quality everytime. I would and have bought used quality(Porter Cable has factory store with demos and reconditioned near me). I like a tool that has enough quality you don't throw it out, you have it repaired. My first boss had two stainless steel skil saws from Rockwell that he would have repaired rather than replacing them. These things were at least 20 years old, but great saws.
I have spent 10 years building a tool collection and am still aquiring things, but go for quality everytime.
I had all my tools stolen one year and had to start fresh, insurance came through with $1000 for about $4000 in tools (Homeowners policy because it happened it front of my house, $250 if happened elsewhere, insurance guy talked me out of tool insurance, too expensive, till you need it). Before I got the check I had to have some essentials and I bought a very good cordless screw gun with two batteries and a very good skil saw. These two are essential and you can get a lot done with only them. After that I have bought tools only when needed for a job if I could afford it. I really relied on my local rental center for tools and still do. Renting is a great way to buy time while you are collecting.
*A question a ways back was about the best "homeowner grade" circular saw. My answer is that it's any that can spin a blade, as the blade is the real key, and homeowners don't use circular saws that much. But, after my 1973 vintage $25 B&D saw just kept refusing to die on me, I lost patience with it keeping me from upgrading, and I sold it at a garage sale last year (putting the original steel blade back on it)for $5. Then I bought the 75th anniversary model Skil saw (similar to the 5657). It was a promotional item and a steal at about $90. The up gun to aluminum foot, large adjusting levers, and powerful motor was cool, but the carbide blade's the same Marathon I took off the old B&D saw.
*Brent:This is an interesting thread...i have some tools i bought because it saved me some dough when i first stared out, and i hardly use them now...but i do think you make a good point. For what it's worth, part of this equation is 'specialty'. If I were a siding sub, i'd probably spring for the specialized good stuff, but I do remodeling which means I have to make what i have and can keep on my truck do double or triple duty for money/convenience whenever I can. I like the plastic sawhorses because they are light and strong, but i spent big money on a aluminum sliding plank for safety/convenience reasons. So go figure...I say pick the tools that ALSO will do flexible duty for you.Brad
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A different way to look at it...
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I posted this on another forum some time back and wanted to see opinions here also.
I looked at my old posts regarding advice given to tools, and it seems I always seem to say " Get the biggest, baddest, 12" slider, man-eater nail gun, best hammer, this is it...Damn the torpedoes (and the cost), you are wasting money if you get anything BUT THIS!
Well, I started to think: What if someone is on a budget or the credit card is trash, or they had everything stolen, and it was important to save a doller here or 10 dollars there. What are some good tools with lots of value that are not necesarily the best, but are worth a lot because of their low price?
Here are some examples of what I was thinking, along the lines of a field carpenter:
Get a 12" CMS, either a MAK or Dewalt, for about $325. They can do 90% of what you cut, and you save 4 or 5 hundred on a top-quality SCMS.
A Delta or Sears 10" portable table-saw for $180. Good capacity, lightwight, and $100 cheaper then the Makita, and $320 cheaper than DEwalt. A real steal.
Ryobi cordless tools. Not the best, but certainly wotrth the 50% price reduction over Makita, P-C, Dewalt, or Milwakee.
P-C air guns. About $100 cheaper than Senco. Not as good, but good enough, even for production work. They are a little louder and rough but they get the job done.
A Craftsman 1 1/2 air compresor, the one on wheels, about $190. I reaally like these things, they are cheap, light and will run on an extention cord, which my Rolair will not do.
Those cheap, $36 per pair plastic folding ZAG sawhorses that Home-Depot sells, They are light, strong and the best I've used. (I've had or made them all, metal, wood, plastic, whatever. These are the best) You need sawhorses to work off of.
"Nailer" brand nail bags. About $80 now and the best combination of weight, pockets, ergonomics and price. I like my Occidental Pro-Framers better, but they were $140, a hefty $60 upcharge.
So what do you guys add to the list? Maybe the most expensive is STILL the best value.
Routers, saws, hand tools, whatever.
Thinking of the new guy, BRENT.
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