I’m working on brackets for a Victorian house. They are three pieces – 3/4 Azek on the outside sandwiching a piece of 1 1/2″ wood in the middle. Overall height is about 11 inches and they are about 7″ deep, not big.
Anyone have any ideas on the best glue to use? The Azek website is indefinite. I figured Type 11 would work okay, but The Azek is pretty slick. Could go with something like PL.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations – New Construction – Rentals
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Replies
For laminating, why not their glue?
edit: oops, better read the post first. PL Prem? Holds everything together.
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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
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Edited 4/11/2009 7:13 am ET by calvin
I'd use Phenoseal. It sticks enough and allows some give. That sounds like an exploding sandwich unless the "wood" is composite lke advantech.
I've had great luck caulking azek to wood with Phenoseal tho'.
I hope it doesn't explode. No reason it should. The brackets will be up against a 12" deep soffit and will be primed on all sides before installation.
Is your experience with the Phenoseal inside or out?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New construction - Rentals
My concern is the differntial expansion and contraction of azek and wood..wood is mositure wise swelling (even painted) and azek is temperature driven.
Phenoseal is OK outdoors, with in reason and IIRC recommended for Azek.
A product like Geocel or lexel is also a good flexible, paintable adhesive. Did you know the brushable geocel can be thinned 50/50 with Min Spirits and makes and outstanding PRIMER? Yup.
Don
I use only Bond and Fil for that application, use it and forget about it. Last thing I want to do is climb up a ladder to fix some stuff I glued up, embarrassing to boot.
Bond and Fil is expensive, but if you plan your work out it shoildn't be a problem. Good Luck
Greg In overcast connecticut
I've not heard of or seen that material. Will look into it.
(Unfortunately, we are in the middle of nowhere and next to nothing here in farmland. I had to import my Azek from NY.)
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
DonIf all fails, you can order it online. This stuff "welds" the pieces together. If you use it intermittenly, you will go through a lot of disposable tips. Bond it once and forget it.Greg in Rainy Connecticut
Welds to wood? thats what he's doing.
MaloSorry, I misunderstood his approach.Is the 2x wood an existing condition?Greg in rainy Connecticut, still waiting for spring
I don't know about "existing condition" since I've spent two days making the dang things. But, the wood is the size (thickness) I needed. When I saw you talking about "welding", I had a feeling you missed that part. I know the Azek pieces can be joined to each other with the specialty stuff. Bond and Fill actually claims that several of their products hold to other materials including wood too.
I checked and there isn't a store within 50 miles. Depending on how fast I get these sanded and ready for assembly, I'll probably go with another glue to avoid shipping.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
In your specific situation I think I'd go with Gorilla Glue or PL and be done with it Don. I assume you can get your hands on some of that nearby? I think TB II or III would be below those two on my list of choices for your situation. And I'm a huge TB fan.View Image
Hey. Nice to hear from you again.
PL is always in the truck. I've had good luck with it. The Gorilla Glue I don't care for as much, partly b/c of the cleanup when it foams out. I keep some of it in the truck too - it's usually hard by the time I want it.
By the way, WOOD magazine just did an outdoor stress test on the waterproof glues recently. They found that the difference between type II and type III was minimal. There was wood failure before the clue failed with either one.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
The Gorilla PVC glue is actually no relation to Gorilla glue, believe it or not! Completely different companies! And Gorilla PVC glue doesn't foam. It's a water cleanup glue. Although I was able to keep 8' gluelines wet for assembling porch columns,you have to catch smears quick, because they dry fast, and are hard to sand off.AitchKay
I googled Bond and Fill, and it looks like the same kind of thing as the Devcon Trimbonder system. I didn't read everything -- I'll go back later -- Do they market it for filling nail holes, too?AitchKay
Bond and Fill makes a putty stick that has to be kneaded by hand before filling holes. They also make a fast-cure and a slow cure two part product which I've been told can be used for filling nail holes or gluing Azek together. Also they make a one part product called Bond & Fill Flex which comes in a regular 10.1 fl. oz. caulking tube. Finally there's somebody on this forum that swears by using white crayola crayons to fill nail holes in Azek. Others call him a hack for doing so.I haven't tried any of these products but will by this time next week and report back. I think which product will work best depends on if you plan on just filling the holes or filling holes then painting. So far I've got, but haven't used, the Flex, the putty and the crayola crayons. I think the two part products might consume lots of tips if you have lots of holes to fill. Also I plan on trying some of those small fine-tipped syringes to have better control than a caulking gun.
Lets compare notes next week, then. I still haven't gotten a nibble at that Trimbonder thread I started, so the stuff must be pretty new.I'm not too worried about that, since I've been using Devcon stuff for over thirty years, but I like the idea of B&Fs fast-set and slow-set products. Trimbonder says open time is 8 min. I've extended nozzle life on my Devcon Mark 5, 50 ml gun by sticking it in ice water between squirts, and you also learn to glue in batches to save on nozzles.The 1.6 oz Bond and Fill applicator looks to be very similar to the Mark 5, and 50 ml = 1.69 oz. But the Mark 5 will handle 5-Min, Two-Ton, Plastic Welder, and other Dev-Paks, so it’s worth going with the Trimbonder if you decide to fill nailholes with these two-part systems.I've found a B&F dealer about 20 miles away, so one of these days I'm going to bring both my Mark 5 and my big Epcon gun to check compatibility, and report back.The Mark 5 is a one-hand tool about the size of a medium-sized hotmelt gun, so it’s not too big for fine work, and cartridge costs tend to be cheaper per oz/ml the larger you go.Should be interesting. Talk to you soon.AitchKay
It's not a product that I've worked with, but IIRC, there is a painter's version that's used for filling nail holes.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I started a thread yesterday over in the TOOLS column, and haven’t gotten any takers.
Am I the first guy to use this stuff?
I guess I’ll copy and paste it here:
**************************************
118863.1
This next week I’ll be trying out the Devcon Trimbonder system for Azek, Kleer, etc. It’s a gunnable, two-part curing glue/filler.
It uses disposable mixing nozzles, like some other twin-tube guns for epoxies, Corian glue, Epcon, etc.
The tech reps can’t tell me whether my ITW Epcon twin-tube gun will handle the ITW Devcon twin-tube Trimbonder cartridges. After all, how could I expect them to know something like that?
So I’ve ordered the single-tube, regular-caulk-gun version, with a 9-month shelf life v 12-month for twin-tube.
They did tell me that my Devcon Mark 5 epoxy gun (I love that thing!), with the mixing nozzles, will take the 50 ml Trimbonder cartridges. But they’re only twice the size of those 25 ml Devcon hypo-style 5-Min and Two-Ton units you buy off the hardware-store hooks in the blister packs. That's too small for big jobs.
The Mark 5 style will be marketed for filling nail holes -- Yes, a two-part nail-hole filler! And they tell me that hypo-style nail-filler units, with mixing nozzles, will be showing up soon at HD.
I’ll weigh in with a full report when this current job is finished.
Meanwhile, anyone used this stuff? Let’s hear it.
AitchKay
I was focused on the glue part of your post, because that's what I'm currently researching for my project.
But I went back and re-read, and now my question is, why not 1/2" Azek for the middle layer? That would be the safest way to go.
I'm currently working on trimming out a two-story bay window with a frame-and-panel layout, and I'm cutting the panels out of 1/2"x4x8 Azek sheets. Wouldn't the 1/2" Azek work for you?
AitchKay
Thanks for the thoughts, but I need inch and a half thickness, not a half inch. Actually, I could have used just a little more, like inch and seven eighths, but it just wasn't worth fussing with.
I'm just going to use the PL premium. That stuff sticks to anything.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Oops, sorry, misread it. Still, why mix very dissimilar materials? Could be a recipe for disaster. What’s the rationale behind that?
Sounds like 4 layers of 3/4" Azek would do it, or 3 layers of 3/4”, and 2 of 1/2”. Whatever. And while you’re right, PL sticks to just about anything, why re-invent the wheel, and experiment? I like the idea of a product that’s been specifically designed for the application. I don’t like callbacks, especially ones that are 20’ in the air.AitchKay
You seem more conservative than me, at least on this one.
I set out to build brackets. I had the Azek laying around and wanted to see how it would work out. As far as the use of two different materials, they aren't that far apart.
The Azek website specifically says that it can be fastened to different substrates other than Azek. It says you can use glues other than theirs as well.
I don't see the expansion issue being a major concern here. Their site says the Azek requires 1/8" expansion in 18' of board. My brackets are about 8" deep. That's about 4% of 18 feet. If I get proportionate expansion, then it will be 4% of 1/8", max, at the wide point of the bracket. That calculates to about 5 thousanths of an inch if my math works. I'll let you know if there's a problem. It's my own house.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Perfect place to experiment. I'm doing my current Azek experimentation on my partner's friend's house. Not quite as good, but still pretty safe -- the guy trusts us, and knows we'll stand behind the work.We're going to go back and take pics of the expansion joints we're building in -- some pics in mid-July, some in mid-February, that type of thing.My concern with a lamination like the one you're talking about would be that conditions might progress something like this:Hot, steamy Summer, followed by wet Fall, everything expanded to the max, then a sudden, deep cold spell. Wood loses and gains moisture gradually, but a temperature-sensitive material will move overnight, so, BANG! Like the exploded scarf joint someone posted here -- I'd have to do a search to find it.Since you're working on your own house, yeah, go for it. But maybe one or two brackets this year, and the rest after you've found out it works?Keep us posted!AitchKay
I've used PL on AZEK. Not always had good results, because I found the plastic too slick to let the adhesive into pores.
It's a PVC. You need a PVC cement, in my opinion.
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
Thanks for the input. Will PVC cement bond to the wood, or does it just disolve the PVC?
Don K
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
My experience is that disolves the plastic. I nail the stuff to wood.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada
Howdy folks. AitchKay I would say has a good handle on the situation. The TrimBonder is the only one approved by Azek at this time tested that is. They seem to like the long history of Devcon. The Bond and Fil is very similar in makeup it works rather well . The Azek glue is water based and has a very long clamp time 24-48 hours, but it also has unique properties in that it actually welds the two pieces together to form a joint that is equal to or stronger than the material. How about 5/4 or 3/8 a sandwich might be an appropriate solution.