I live in an urban area where detatched garages in the alley are the norm, including a lot of 1-car garages still today.
Saw a flier today that had a “coupon” for garage re-roofing sale:
$945 for a 1-car
$1245 for a 2-car
Does not include structural repairs (& most likely only bargain shingles & probably assumes low pitch & no dormers or other complications)
No idea what the “regular” price would be.
In our area, the materials price for this project would be about $140 for the 1-car and another $70 for the 2-car, plus disposal costs for the tear-off (I’m assumung the offer includes tear-off!)
This seems like a 1/2 day job for a 2-man crew or a full day solo. Not a bad way to make a living. Now, take note sensitive pros, I’m not suggesting this is highway robbery. But when it comes to home repair this job just screams DIY to me and if a young, healthy homeowner doesn’t at least consider doing this job himself, in my opinion, there’s a person with too much money on his hands.
Just my impression.
Replies
Why don't you call the company and find out if they have liability insurance, if their employees are covered under workers comp, if they are licensed and if they have references? Also while you are on the phone with them find out exactly what they will do for the advertised price. I am not for or against, but I do know what it takes to run a business.
I understand what you're saying which is why I expressly stated that I'm not suggesting the "pros" were overcharging, so try setting that aside.
It just struck me that, of all the possible DIY projects around the house, this one might be the hardest to screw up. There's greater risk in an empty room off-white paint job. You could give someone who has never done it before instructions on a 3x5 index card and some cool drinks and a boom box and there you go.
Think about it. You're working 8' off the ground on a 4/12 roof. No venting to worry about. All the materials in one easy trip to HD. A little sweat and dirt, to be sure - maybe some scuffed up nuckles. But people have been known to work pretty hard at other jobs for $1000. I just can't see coming home and turning that paycheck over to roofers when you could do the job yourself without the concern of possibly screwing it up.
Hard to screw up? What??? It's a roofing job! Roofing is HARD %#* work. Alittle sweat and dirt? A little - try alot of sweat and a possible total mess on your hands.
8 feet off the ground - most construction deaths that involve falls occur under 12 feet - read it today on a construction safety website.
Rip the roof, get materials, install roofing PROPERLY, clean up the debris, dispose of the debris, in an alley, in an urban setting {access to site is difficult at best in a city & parking & codes & etc.}. That's a good idea for a HO - with little to no experience - it's easy & hard to screw up. Oh yeah roofers don't work as hard as anyone else does for there $ - they just take peoples $ - because we all know how easy it is to rip a roof & reroof?
Have you seen some HO's finished work? It's usually perfect for the price. Nothing for nothing.
I mostly sheetrock & spackle - but I've done it all - roofers deserve every dime they can get- spakle is hard, roofing is hard, tile work is hard, - it's all hard work.It is all easy to screw up also - it's the assumption that it is easy that drives me nuts.
I knew the concept was going to make the pros mad, even though it has nothing to do with pros.
My wife is highly paid in her profession with a master's degree. She brings home $1,375 each two weeks. She works hard.
It would be the definition of insanity to hand that check over to pros to do a job I could do in a long day. THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MERITS OF THE PRICE THEY WOULD CHARGE.
There are plenty of folks who make enough money to write out a $1000 check and give it no more thought than the tip for the pizza guy. More power to 'em.
Some might say the definition of the good life is to be able to pay other people to the stuff you find unpleasant. To me, the definition of the good life is to be as self sufficient as possible and not become a slave to a paycheck.
There are plenty of jobs I wouldn't or couldn't tackle. This isn't one of them. And I would give that same advice to anyone who could tie their own shoes.
And I would volunteer to help them, too.
Edited 2/2/2003 1:39:43 AM ET by NannyGee
I knew the concept was going to make the pros mad, even though it has nothing to do with pros.
Not this pro, you wouldn't catch me doing anything more than replacing a shingle or two. Had one job working for a roofer in the very early 70's. Decided there were far easier ways to make a living.
Yes a DIY can do it for far less. A DIY doesn't have the costs a professional does. Nor the skills or experience.
FWIW, I am now a home inspector. I see plenty of screwwed up DIY roofing jobs on small, detached garages. _______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
We don't care what your wife brings home or decide if she works hard or not - we all work hard for are $ - by the way it's considered tacky to announce your income - oops, your wifes income to people , even on the internet unless asked and it has direct bearing on a subject {I learned that from my grandma - 3rd grade educ. & my mom - high school educ.- who both proved to me you can make a living with minimal education and hard work and have some class about it and not sit around and complain about how everyone else makes more $} - don't assume that roofers/construction workers don't earn there $.
You said it would be " the definition of insanity to hand that check over to the pros to do ajob I could do in a long day" Then you say it has nothing to do with the price. It has everything to do with price in your eyes - all you see is $1000 to do a roof when your gonna spend at least $500 on materials & dumping fees - so you're really only saving $500 - IF and that is a big if, if you can do it in a long day - why do you assume every HO can or would want to do it.
The only reason you're hearing from contractors on this thread is because the HO reading this know that a roofing job is beyond there capabilities. You can't compare tying your shoes to reroofing your garage - what do you mean by that? It sounds like you think someone that roofs might not be that bright - or your smarter than the average roofer.
I think that this might be a troll thread (just a thread to get people fired up) but ill respond to it anyway. As a DIYer there are a lot of things I am profiecent at. But sometimes you must consider is it worth your time and effort to do it rather than pay someone. Meaning even the pro's sub various portions of jobs out. Why because a specialist ( someone who specializes inna aspect of construction like roofing) can come in and do in one day w/o any call backs or problems what would take the contractor a day or 2 to do. Plus he can go work on a portion of the job that is his specialty to complete it on time and at or under cost. Somethings its better to pass the baton.
A good example is my current project. I built new kitchen cabs w/ doors and drawers,, demo'd the old cabs and plumbing and installed new plumbing, added a circuit for D/W ad Fridge , installed granite tile counter tops and ceramic tile floors, ripped out old vanity in 1/2 bath built and installed new. Im getting ready to install a new box to add a kitchen light and another new circuit for the laundry, take out a can light and buid a light box for ploresent lights. Now Im getting ready pay a contractor to install new windows in my house . Why after doing all that myself?
Cuz a window installer can come in and in one day install all the windows in my house ,some which are huge,including a gargen window and would take 2 people and If I tried to muscle it in and broke it who do you think would have to pay for a new one to replace the broken one. For a reasonable price Plus I can continue to finish the project I already started and is winding down . So thats my opinion take it or leave it.
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I ll have it done by next Tuesday Oh yea I need another draw.........
I am involved with all phases of remodeling, but when it comes to roofing I call a great roofer I know. Never had a problem with his work and he is worth every penny, and speaking about education, he too has a masters degree.
Roofing is a dangerous job. I believe over 50 roofers are killed and countless injuries occur each year. Most from low level roofs, ie garages. Workers comp/liability insurance is high for these guys for a reason. There are lots of fly by nighters out there and you must watch out for them, but if you come across a legitimate roofing company, then open your wallet wide because they are worth every dime they charge. Late last summer a roof in my neighborhood was being worked on and one of the younger workers fell through a sky light and was impaled on a piece of the broken glass. He died on the scene.
For a DIY job, if you think you can handle it, then by all means go for it. I have been involved with construction most of my life and I know I can do it, but won't touch it. I respect every mans trade. I'd rather watch from the ground. "One measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions"
Touchy, Touchy.
If you can talk about how much something costs, you can think of it in terms of how long it would take you to earn that much doing other things. I don't care what granny taught you. It's not like I was trying to impress you with our great wealth.
The point, which so many are avoiding admiting here, is that most folks CAN do THIS PARTICULAR EXAMPLE of construction work. Something goes wrong under the hood of my car and the mechanic says it's gonna cost $1000 and I'll grumble a little and tell him to go ahead and do it. Why? Because I CAN'T. I don't know how. It would take a significant amount of time to learn. It would be unreasonable to own the tools necessary to do the job.
Is it so hard to admit that this situation is different?
The point, which so many are avoiding admiting here, is that most folks CAN do THIS PARTICULAR EXAMPLE of construction work.
You have made no point. You have expressed your opinion based upon the assessment of your own capabilities.My opinion is that MOST folks are NOT capable of accomplishing this task.
jwwhat the heck was I thinking?
OK, perhaps you'll allow me to clarify.
There are a lot of folks who would never attempt any DIY project. As far as I'm concerned, they are out of the equation.
Of the folks remaining who are inclined to lift a hammer occasionally, most of them CAN do THIS PARTICULAR task.
I will stand by that.
Given those parameters, I would agree.what the heck was I thinking?
"I don't care what granny taught you"
It's too bad you didn't have a granny to teach you good manners..
Excellence is its own reward!
This DIYer will play with electricity and do trimwork, but I'll be damned if I will do roofing."Her own mother lived the latter years of her life in the horrible suspicion that electricity was dripping invisibly all over the house."-????
Oh No ! ! It's the hurt feelings of the contractors' because some uppity homeowner thinks he can slap down shingles with the best of them.......thread........Again !
Nothing ever changes.
GC
View Image
My Profile
Main
Personal
Favorites
View Image
View Image
GCLANCY
Member Since: 6/5/2002
Posts: 19
Last Visit: 5:07 pm
Are you sure you want to fall into this one ? Be sensless since you have no interrest. This is the first time I remember Piffin being on such a roll.
Hurt feelings?
Obviously you are not retaining what you are reading . I suggest you read the posts over to answer your own thoughts . Actually we have been quite professional. You just caught us on a good day.
Tim Mooney
My "thoughts" were addressed to all, not to you specifically or Piffin. And who are you to say I have no interest? Mine is the same as anyone else who has had the occasion to respond to this thread.
As for the subject at hand, most of what I've read are accusations and anecdotes, or let's play "rock-paper-scissors" with how hard it is to roof a garage. Maybe it is hard, maybe it isn't, who can say since it varies so much with skill level and complexity of the job? But it seems alot of responses are hell-bent on trying to prove it's impossibly hard.
GC
Howdy,
I'm not here to pick on you or on DIYs in general. I'll help out when I can.
A lot of people who are handy can do it. It's not impossibly hard. That's not what the pros here are resisting, it's this guys attitude that after being on three or four roofs, he already knows more about it than men who have been doing it all their lifes. He only demonstrates that he doesn't know what it is that he doesn't know.
"who can say" ?
If I'm looking for research advice, I'll listen to Theodora the librarian before I'll follow the advice of someone else who says he has openned three or four books, wouldn't you?
And reading isn't all that hard, is it? It's really pretty simple!
The Nanny tripped a lot of BS meters and had all the alarms in the city going off.
I worked with a shingle hatchet in my hand for a good six months before I had the basics down. Where to place nails and how to hold the shingle striaght while nailing it. How to dry-in. How to open a bundle of shingles without damaging them. Then I started to learn roofing. His attitude that it is simple is like the people who think that any idiot can paint, and then get stuck with the kind of paint job that any idiot can do. It lasts three years instead of ten. Sometimes caulk in the wrong places causes rot, Oh God! you went and got me started...
Let me give you a small hint of just a few of the things that a beginner probably doesn't know, based on what I've seen happen with repairing behind them and training new hands on roofs.
Starters are needed because they work to do several things. They are a seal down help for the first full course. They provide the necessary headlap to prevent leaks. If you look at disc 16attachment below you will see the first two courses a DIY did on his own place. The result in atach disc19 was the same you find when no starter is used. On this building the starter was improperly placed all the way around and it contributed to the rot situation.
I could write more like this on each of the following...
How many nails should be put in each shingle?
At what location in the shingle should those nails be placed?
If he places them wrong, will it matter?
How long should they be?
What kind of nails should he use?
Which nail should he drive first?
Will he end up frustrated or with a crooked shingle if he drives the wrong one first?
Is it faster to shingle across the roof or up the rake first?
Does it make a difference in quality?
How can he be sure to keep the pattern lined up straight?
Should he install metal eave edge before shingleing?
Can he recognize whether he has hadf a bad batch of shingles delivered so he can refuse them?
Should he use thirty pound underlayment or fifteen or none, and why?
Can he cut the shingles off at the egde without leaving part of his finger in the trash pile or between the shingles?
Since he sneers at the fact that it's only eight feet off the ground and thinks that he's safer on a 3/12 than on a steep roof, it's obvious that he knows nothing about safety practices and equiptment, isn't it?
&
SHOULD HE STRIP THE PLASTIC FILM OFF THE BACK OF THE SHINGLES WHEN HE OPENS UP THE BUNDLE????
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"Oh No ! ! It's the hurt feelings of the contractors' because some uppity homeowner thinks he can slap down shingles with the best of them.......thread........Again !
Nothing ever changes.
GC "
You are definately entitled to your opinion and its welcomed. I just have problem when a post isnt correct. No ones feelings were hurt. No one but the poster gave wrong information. But we were accused.
Nothing ever changes?
Most posters are thankful to recieve information. This poster in question never gave a thanks and was quite rude. Several posted to him and he responded with an attitude . I really wanted to say that I really didnt care what he did , but no one here said anything out of line to him.
Tim Mooney
Even if I hold your hand?
;-)
I guess your literacy has brought you some wisdom!.
Excellence is its own reward!
I believe I would need both hands, and fewer distractions, thank you!"Her own mother lived the latter years of her life in the horrible suspicion that electricity was dripping invisibly all over the house."-????
I promise to keep my hands from becoming distracting.
My wife is the same way, white knuckles and all once she gets about three feet off the ground.
Maybe you could help me out with wiring in my house though? I don't know much about that. If you hold the white wire, and I hold the black one, can we still hold hands?
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
I've always admired people who seem well-grounded!
"Her own mother lived the latter years of her life in the horrible suspicion that electricity was dripping invisibly all over the house."-????
Why thank you, Twink!
It's also good to keep current for relationships to spark le. .
Excellence is its own reward!
"Maybe you could help me out with wiring in my house though? I don't know much about that. If you hold the white wire, and I hold the black one, can we still hold hands?"
That was FUNNY! Was it original? Ive never heard it before. I wont forget it .
Too funny.
Tim Mooney
Have you ever known nme to not be original?
I was just trying to make good contact with our lead librarian. It's important that we all understand each other here so we don't get our wires crossed. .
Excellence is its own reward!
Illuminating response.
jwwhat the heck was I thinking?
Touchy? I've yet to meet a guy in this business that was "touchy" or "sensitive" as you put it. The thing that bothers me is you come off as a know it all. I've been working day in and day out in this business for 15+ years and I know I'll never "know" it all. There is allways something to learn and I've learned from all different types - new guys, old guys, slow guys, stupid guys, smart guys - the lesson here is never assume something.
You can't assume that anyone can reroof a garage - yes there is a small percentage of HO that can reroof there garage - but it is a small %.
Hey - my grandma taught me some great lessons like the 1st paint job I did in Jr. H.S. she said" a good painter gets the paint on the wall, not all over his clothes." It's a classic.
I never said I was impressed with your wife's income -in fact I'm totally unimpressed. 50 grand a year with a masters degree? Actually it sounded like you were crying poverty & you were hoping we would pat you on the back for being such a smart & ingenius fellow to figure out how to beat the evil contractors at there corrupt and overpriced business practices. Please don't backpedal on this - you can come clean - most contractors Know our prices can "appear" expensive at first look, but when you really look at it you "ll realize most price quotes are reasonable & fair.
MOST HO's CAN NOT roof. Some - yes less then 10% of the home owning population can roof. Most is 51% or more of the HO's.
Is it so hard to admit?
If I didn't have two young kids, and I had a few days off, and the weather wasn't going to be too hot, I'd do it myself. But typically, I have better things to do with my time, and I'm happy to pay someone who knows what they are doing to do it well and quickly. And I've done a few roofs (neighbors garages, my parents house; my parents cottage; a friend's house, etc etc) in my time. And its a pain in the but to get rid of the old roof.
I laugh at the people who want to save money doing stuff like this, but they probably pay money to exercise, and buy bottled water.
How much did you say a bundle of shingles weighs?
Yes, the trip to HD is easy...unloading the stuff & putting it on the roof is the hard part.
Doesn't HD deliver and stock the roof for their customers like other building yards? :).Jules Quaver for President 2004
"Doesn't HD deliver and stock the roof for their customers like the other building yards?"
ROAR ROAR
Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
I just can't see coming home and turning that paycheck over to roofers when you could do the job yourself without the concern of possibly screwing it up.<<
where to begin, there is always this possibility, especially when someone is overconfident, not to mention one trip and fall off the roof,
by all means, reroof your garage yourself, but good roofers deserve every dime they make
"without the concern of possibly screwing it up"
I did read once about someone who started from the top down and installed the shingles backwards. Short of that - check structure/drip edge & paper - how could someone with the mental capacity to understand the instructions on the outside of each package, screw up?
Let's be serious & not choose the most outragious possibilities. I'm going to assume that the person has actually swung a hammer before.
What makes you think they would tear the old shingles off?
Excellence is its own reward!
Twas thinkin the same thing .
Tim Mooney
Gentlemen,
I am prepared to render my decision from on high.
1) as most of you have already noted---the original poster simply doesn't know what he is talking about----moreover--he doesn't know what he doesn't know!
2)The prices stated are probably quite fair. My company has done ZILLIONS of these types of jobs in those price ranges.Unlike this poster----most homeowners are VERY happy to pay these rates because it is next to impossible to find an experienced,licensed,insured,long established roofing contractor willing to bother with such a small job.
3) To date----in my career I have fallen off a roof on 2 seperate occasions----both times garage roofs. Plus garage roofs ALWAYS seem to have a much higher ratio of bad wood to replace following tear-off.
4) as one small example of the MANY things the poster either doesn't know or is overlooking in his calculations------the costs of labor to clean up tear-off debris plus disposal charges will usually TOTALLY eclipse material costs on a job of this type.Ironically garages have notoriously bad access considering that there is a driveway on one side of them. Trees,fences,neighbors cars,landscaping---all within inches of the garage make these jobs some of the worst cleanups imagineable.
5)The poster seems to believe the roofers are putting all that money directly in their pockets.On a typical 2 car garage---if I do the job solo I may personally clear $400-500 or so.I can do it in 1 day--in fact I enjoy it. But if the poster thinks the average healthy DIY'er is equiped to pick up and deliver materials,tear-off 2-layers of roofing from a 2 car garage,replace bad wood,felt--drip edge--shingle said garage( BTW how are those materials getting upstairs anyway? oooomph) and then clean-up and dump all that debris in one work day----well ha ha ha ha ha ha. It ain't rocket science guys,I know, but I gaurantee it is WAAAAAY fu,fu,fu, fu freaking different than this guy is dreaming.
6) but hey,what do I know ?
I have been on both sides of this one. Was a do it yourselfer for years before starting my own thing a few years ago. I bought and rehabbed houses in my spare time and became pretty good at it. But when you do it every day, all day you are much more proficient, in shape for it, know what to look for and manage the job much better. Little things make a difference in even a small job. Are your hands calloused? Hope so because a roof will prove otherwise. This sounds small till you have to get back up on the roof the second day with a sore back, sore legs and raw hands. Do you know where to get rid of the shingles? Can't just put em out by the curb. What shingle do you buy? Most pros have a preference and its not because of which one looks better. Just a few thoughts. But hey, have at it and as suggested above come back and let us know how it went. DanT
There's no easy way to make money.
The extended group of couples my wife and I are friends with all own homes. All make roughly the same, somewhere in $60-$70k combined annual income. Some make more and the wives stay home, but we're all in the same ball park.
I am a sitework / utility contractor but have worked in several trades over my life. I have bought and done extensive remodels on several homes. My current home has involved a complete bathroom remodel and a bathroom addition, amongst many other projects. A couple we're friends with took bids on remodeling their bathroom and have paid $10k for its remodel - this is a nice guy who's never lifted a hammer. It involved tile shower, tear-out one piece tub/shower, relocate window, fix exterior siding for said relocate, and new fixtures / finishes. My remodel and addition added $3000 in mat'l total - and would have been $25,000 to hire out. I could never afford that.
But given the time I've put into it and knowing overhead costs that's what I would charge someone else. My father's parting advice when I left home was if you're going to be poor, learn how to do your own brakes on your vehicle. It's been good advice all along.
remodeler
"My father's parting advice when I left home was if you're going to be poor, learn how to do your own brakes on your vehicle. It's been good advice all along."
That's great advice. But you're not at all poor. You're at about the 70th percentile. Certainly nothing wrong with that.
We're slightly below you, and among our circle of homeowner/friends we probably have the lowest income. But, although I don't know the details their finances, there is a very good chance that we have the highest net worth.
How is this possible?
Three little letters, baby.
D-I-Y
2 car garage will run about 7-8 squares, so less than 200 per square - seems in the ballpark, at least in some major league cities.
_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Don't need to nitpick, but the typical 2-car here on a small city lot is no more than 20x20 with low pitch and almost no overhang - some are smaller. Any larger and I'm pretty sure they would call it 2 1/2 car (realtor-speak for room to park the car AND open the car door) and charge extra.
So you're talkin' 5 square give or take a little.
More importantly, unlike a home, there is nothing to cut around here.
My own 1-car is 18x12, 5/12 + 12" overhang on the shed sides = 3 square
Edited 2/2/2003 12:12:24 AM ET by NannyGee
Edited 2/2/2003 12:15:34 AM ET by NannyGee
Sorry to nitpick, but the roof you describe for that building of yours is ten bundles (3-1/3 sq) plus starter and ridge, using materials efficiently. That makes it four squares and you off by thirty percent. Hope you bid better than that or you'll be broke before long..
Excellence is its own reward!
Good post Piff
Nothing special, just stating facts. After spending twenty years doing roofs, I instinctively knew that his figures were off. So I ran a check..
Excellence is its own reward!
the roof I described was precisely 273.02 sq ft including the pitch & overhang
It might be precisely that in your imagination but reality is different. Your run up the rafter with sheathing and trim is 7'6". Multiply that by a length of twenty feet...totals 150 sq ft per side so that's PRECISELY 300 sq ft of coverage. You don't buy just for precise coverage. You buy for what materials will be used becasue that is how you pay for them. When you figure for waste in application, you are buying at least ten bundles, plus one for ridge. Oh Yeah, since this is a DIY job, I suppose we should do away with the starter materials.
You are blowing off like someone who has never done a roof before.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
So what are you looking for from us? Just do it already! But when you're done, come back and tell us how it went, and whether you now understand why things cost what they cost to hire a pro.Bear
I have to wonder about the personality of a poster who goes to such great pains (an impressive drawing) to try to make me look foolish. Are you that insecure?
One little detail you missed. I multiply by 18, not 20, since my little garage has no overhang on the gable ends, as I clearly stated. That accounts for the difference in our calculations.
With no obstructions to cut around, there is almost no waste involved. The few extra shingles available from my calculations would be more than enough for the starter strip - Of course, the "architectual" style (faux shakes) don't require a starter strip if used with ice dam protector - or you can use leftovers from a previous job for this.
In any case, Yes, it is possible that if I only bought 3 square, I might come up a few pieces short, so I would buy an extra package, or a package of caps.
If my calculations offended you, why didn't you get offended by the guy who threw out 7-8 sq. for the 2-car? Sure, it's possible, but not the norm in my area. I chose to respond to him by simply calrifying the situation.
If my calculations offended you, why didn't you get offended by the guy who threw out 7-8 sq. for the 2-car? Sure, it's possible, but not the norm in my area. I chose to respond to him by simply calrifying the situation. Why did you respond to me by being such an #ss?
I'm that guy. In my area a 2 car takes 7-8 squares, obviously depending on pitch and overhang. I'm not quite sure how you can fault me for not knowing what's typical in your area.
You also might want to review the forum rules about personal insu;ts. Mot people consider calling someone an azz to be a pesonal insult._______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
"I'm not quite sure how you can fault me for not knowing what's typical in your area."
I can't fault you and I didn't. I quietly and soberly clarified what is typical for the area for which the "coupon" was created, knowing full well that anything more than that would be charged extra.
Through no fault of your own, you were off by about 2 sq. On the other hand I MAY HAVE been off by as much as one bundle and another poster - through miscalculation - posted otherwise in a way explicitly designed to demean my abilities.
I have taken great pains not to act likewise, despite the temptation.
You came to a board and asked pros to answer you. Evidently,you dont like the answers. I will now respond trying to cover different ground than has been covered.
Last year a HO climbed the ladder wanting to take coke orders from the roofers. He lost balance falling backwards to concrete. He was killed immediately. He was my friend.
I buy houses the public wont buy considering the condition. One of the things I fix are the "I did it my self jobs". If a roof is haphazardly put on ,I will need to replace it regardless of age. Many carports are closed in by DIYs only to be ripped out. To bring top price it has to be in top shape . That brings me to the question of why you arent replacing the whole roof. By the time someone gets around to replacing the house shingles the colors wont match. I make a living doing houses that had poor choices because the general public wont buy them with extensive repairs. That could be from work that was never performed, or work that was poorly performed. An addition to that would be choices made to roof only part of a house or for a number of reasons like that one that did not maintain or improve the selling price of the structure. Basically what Im taking about is numbers which takes us right back to where you started in post one.
Tim Mooney
"He lost balance falling backwards to concrete. He was killed immediately. He was my friend."
I'm terribly sorry for your loss. However, if a homeowner can't climb onto a garage roof, then he shouldn't own a ladder. He also shouldn't own a lug wrench, or a chainsaw or rollerblades. There is no need to exaggerate danger to make a point.
You could die every time you drive a car. Your point?
"That brings me to the question of why you arent replacing the whole roof. By the time someone gets around to replacing the house shingles the colors wont match."
D-E-T-A-C-H-E-D garage
Edited 2/2/2003 3:38:56 PM ET by NannyGee
He was only three steps up on an 8 ft ladder. All points given were facts . I have no reason to plus the truth . Real life.
Tim Mooney
I'm confused, are you all complaining about the original poster and his suggesting that doing a roof is cheap and easy, or are you saying the DIY'er shouldn't do it at all?
The reason I am asking is that when there is a discussion about "This Old House," everyone is complaining that the homeowners don't do their own work anymore, yet when someone here suggests that a DIY'er do a project, they then jump on the bandwagon to hire a pro? Also, while it is fair to point out difficulties, it isn't fair to assume that DIY'ers are inept. As Clint says, "A man has gots to know his limits." I won't replace the clutch on my FWD car, but most everything else is fair game, cause I know my limits. Ditto on projects around the house.
Also, on that $1000 job which requires $500 materials/disposal and only saves the homeowner $500, keep in mind those are aftertax dollars they are paying out. As I am taxed 40% on my earnings, I'd have to make/bill $833 in order to pay that $500 labor differential. Plus, I can only do what I do for a living so much. Some of us like the change of pace to go out and bang on things on the weekend. I'd have to think twice, though, before I took days off during the week. In retrospect, had time permitted, I wish I had done the waterline replacement myself rather than spend $1400 on the plumber (which was much better than the $1900-2300 the others quoted).
As my garage roof needs replacing next summer, I do have a vested interest in this discussion. But I haven't seen much yet to deter me from doing it.
Well, you could fall off the ladder and break your neck.
You could install the shingles backwards.
You could take the money you saved and spend a weekend in Vegas...
Glad to hear from a peaceful soul.
Since you posted in response to #35 without reading through, you didn't get a chance to see that this is not a rant aganst DIYs in general. Most DIYs come here, get good advice, and are gratefull for the help, and we all have a great time doing it. We'll all be more than glad to assist you any way we can with advice.
This thread is rowdy in responce to the false information and attitudes of the original poster claiming that he can save far more than is true by doing it himself. An attempt to educate him to save him or other readers such as your self from serious error was met with a snide "I know better than you professionals, I just knew you'd all get pissed" kind of attitude.
You make a good point about the after tax money but it is not complete, if you want to compare the dollars involved. Let's say that you are earning forty dollars an hour in your profession, worth 24 after tax dollars. Now suppose that you could realistically save six hundred dollars on your garage roof. You have to be able to do it in 25 hours then or you are working at a loss in comparisson to the money you could be making at whatever else you would normally do. Or, when you are caryying shingles up and hot miserable, sore ,and sweating with torn pants and knuckles, you will be asking your self, "Self, is this really worth 25 bucks an hour?" Slow down a little to enjoy the work and you are making even less.
I'm not saying don't do it. I'm saying take a realistic look at it before you jump in assuming that all will go as you might expect. Do that and read the label first and you'll probably do OK.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Well, most people who post here are looking for advice, opinions or guidance. Unless they post in the tavern which mean they, like you desire to get on the soap box and then defend their position. Piffin summed it up well. I mentioned in my original post that I am a former DIY and you are correct that a reasonably intelligent DIY can do most any job with a little study and willingness to put the time in it. More time than the pro in most cases. And you are correct that you can save money compared to what you will pay a professional.
Now the other side. Most guys here really want to help people who ask reasonably intelligent questions. Part of the help is to guide them in the language of the business or refine the posters methods so they may do it better. Even after receiving the information the DIY asking the question may choose not to truly do it themselves but they are at least armed with better information when dealing with a contractor. Everyone wins. That being said it appears you were just trolling for an ego boost and either looking for an argument or looking for a bunch of pros to step back in awe of your wisdom and knowledge. Then when questioned you became defensive and suddenly wondered why everyone acted like you were stupid.
Most professionals take offense to someone assuming they know more than they know about their own professions. You confirmed you didn't know when you could not convey the needed info or exactly what you were talking about with your inacurate info that you posted and then when corrected became defensive bringing on more defensive attacks. If you go to the lube shop and talk the entire time to them about how much you know about servicing your car and their prices are ridiculous you will get the same reaction. So..............go put your roof on when you need it, design your house, put it in a magazine, get a job, take care of your kids, replumb your house, anything you want to do go ahead and do it. But in the future asking advice here you may not get the responses you had hoped as I for one won't waste my time on your posts. DanT
The tavern is for bar-room BS. I assumed General Discussion was for something like this. Perhaps I was wrong not to get on my knees and ask questions of the grand masters who believe they own this board or who think the magazine ought to taylor itself only to the trades.
Since I thought shingling the most simple possible roof would be a good way for a young, healthy homeowner to save a significant amount of money, I now know I was wrong and no one should ever attempt this. They are bound to screw it up or beak their neck. They should just shut up and write a check.
Since I don't spend every day at the worksite, it might not be surprising that I might mis-speak about the downhill side of the roof being the "shed" side and not the "eve". 1000 pardons. I'm a fool. Of course, a dozen pros can inflate their imagined prices by a factor of 2 and I can't call them on it because I'm just an idiot DIY'er.
HD "shake" shingles $13/package, $39/sq. Paper maybe $10 (just guessing here, if I'm wrong, shoot me). Drip edge $2.60/10'. Quick call to dump site & the guy advises $50-$100 depending on weight.
3 1/3 sq (typical here) 1-car total: $210-260 plus my time. Quite possible original price quoted did not include tear off, though. Done a similar job before in about 9 hours including the trip to the Box. Works out to about $70/and hour in savings to me. I fully realize this isn't $70/hour for the contractor. That is totally beside the point.
Edited 2/3/2003 10:54:12 AM ET by NannyGee
I GOT IT!!!! When you make a statement that offends someone they are being overly sensitive. But when they make a statement that offends you you become sarchastic and feel picked on. Ok, I got it now. I just didn't realize we weren't allowed to communicate on the same level. And by the way, glad to hear about you and your friends income and you having the best net worth. Man, that makes my day! I was thinking, gee if he has done all this work and with his in depth knowledge of roofing I certainly hope he is proffiting from it all. I mean gosh, if you weren't ahead of your friends financially it might leave us to believe you need to go get a.................job? DanT
You know there are two of you now, or are there?, There is a DanT posting a question about building a front door, had 3 posts, then there is you with 171?
Edit: or is he one of those railean (sp) clones of yourself? :)
Edited 2/3/2003 6:45:39 PM ET by CAG
I thought the price the guy leaving the flyers around the neighborhood quoted sounded good. Around here, the average reroof on a house is upward of $7-8000.
When it came to my own house, I thought about doing it myself, until I realized the consequences if I failed to get it done within a reasonable time (i.e., before it rained) or if I fell off the roof. So I hired a contractor. What surprised me was the disparity in bids. #1 was $5,400; #2 was $7,500; #3 was $12,500.
#3 came in a fancy presentation folder, with lots of info on "how to care for a roof," etc. #2 followed up with a questionaire as to why I didn't choose him. #1 got the job (not because of price but because of very high recommendations from people I know). He did an excellent job and I've since recommended him to others.
Before he left, I asked him about the bids. He said #3 (the largest roofing co. in the area) wasn't really interested in jobs like mine when there are 200-unit condos going in all around here. So they bid high, and if someone hires them, that's good, and if they don't, that's okay too. He said his bid was exactly what he needed to make on the job and was happy making.
Ordinarily I probably would have left this thread alone, but I'm planning on doing a little three square roof job myself this summer. Or at least the tear-off and carpentry part, which I think I know enough to do. I'm trying to learn about doing standing seam copper, but if I can't find out enough, I may have to find someone to hire.
What I've done so far on the project was to go to one of the major rigging houses here and buy the full body harness and lifeline. I have the line rigged up to some very robust new ceiling joists in a small room, and as the rigging vendor advised, I'm practicing hanging around and getting into and out of various positions 6" above the floor. The idea is to get used to most of the situations you might encounter before you have to deal with them up high.
What I'm tearing off is old concrete tile, immitation Spanish style, like clay tile. This could be about a ton and a half of material, I think I'll have it down in 3-5 days. Then maybe another week or two replacing termite damage and sheathing..... But I could be totally wrong about all of that. Eisenhower said something like "Plans are worthless, but planning is indispensable." It never turns out the way you planned it, but without planning it would turn out far worse.....
The point of all this is I'm not doing it to save money. I'm probably not going to save much, it may even cost more. This copper roof job is going to be a once in a lifetime adventure, like a vacation in Moscow back in the Soviet days. I do things myself because I enjoy learning. It's fun, it's exercise, so I don't mind if it takes me twice as long or ten times longer than it would if a pro did it.
-- J.S.
With your attitude, intelligent planning and realistic expectations you are going to be just fine with your project. Good luck with your project. "Don't take life too seriously, you are not getting out of it alive"
That's great, John!
and after enjoying the job, you'll be able to enjoy looking at it for a long time, and saying, "I did that myself."
You'll feel good about it, with good reason..
Excellence is its own reward!
Good for you. Go for it. You may cuss the roof or even yourself a million times in the process, but you will not regret trying. And As Piffen says, you can always be proud of the effort and the results.
Quittin' Time
Thanks for the update. If it continues I suppose I will have to change my handle. Hate to as I use it on 8 or 10 boards. Thanks again. DanT
No problem, Just noticed it didnt seem like you since the guy said he wanted to get info from the pros.
And I thought you were one, or at least didnt sound like something from you.
There is more there. There is a barely voiced but definately intended statement, hidden in the first and maybe a couple subsequent posts.
I am going to try to gel it into coherent type, bear with me. I have a grasp on it, but am not sure that I can make the crossover to text...
There is a garage...
It needs a roof.
A roofer offers to do the job for 900 dollars.
The diy looks at it, and figures that it would take maybe a couple hundred dollars in materials.
From that, the diy assumes that the roofer must be ripping them off, because they are charging 900 dollars when it obviously only costs 200.
.......
The part that gets my goat, and rightly so, is where the professional is accused of ripping off the homeowner.
.......
If you are an architect, and you design a home for someone, are you ripping them off if you charge more than the 20 dollars or so in materials that it takes ? Maybe the architect should be charging 20 dollars for materials and ten dollars for his time ?
If you are a mechanic, are you ripping someone off if you charge them more than the 30-90 dollars that the water pump costs, when you replace the water pump ? Ok, so 30 dollars for the part is fair, and then maybe five bucks for his time ?
If you own a grocery store, are you ripping the customer off if you charge more than the 13 cents or so, that that can of beans cost you to buy ? Hey, we all know that all they do is stick it on the shelf and then sell it to you, right ? So if that can of beans costs any more than 15 cents to you, the store is ripping you off, right ?
Why then, is it that a professional contractor/roofer/whatever, is ripping people off if they charge more to do a job than what the materials cost ?
.........
Any contractor here knows 1.) the hidden costs of the job itself. The tear-off, the disposal, the hidden problems with the underlying structure. Etc. As well as being aware of the labor and dangers that are not readily apparent. The same contractors also know, 2.) the costs of actualy BEING a contractor. The overhead. The accounting. The license, insurance, bond, etc. The taxes. The extra hours involved behind the secenes. The tools, maintenance, headaches in dealing with suppliers. Dealing with the labor issues. Etc and LOTS more etc....
Any contractor here can tell you that after all the above is taken into account, the 900 dollar charge is a BARGAIN !!
.........
It just pisses me off that any dipwad that doesn't know sh#t from shinola about the realities of the job, can come in here and insinuate that all contractors are ripoff artists because they do not do all thier work for the exact same amount as it would cost if the DIY themselves had done the job. I am talking out-of-pocket expenses. What it would have cost them directly. Not including any labor or anything else. And most especialy not including all those hidden expenses in the job itself, that no diy would even begin to know about.
Of course, if, as a contractor, I did the roofing job for the customer for exactly the same money they would have spent if they had done it themselves... The next assumption that dipwad would make is that, being a professional, I should have been able to do it for LESS than they could have. So, why didn't I save them that much more money ?
.........
How many diy's here go to work, and don't get paid ? How many here would still have a home, or food for their family, if they did all the work they do for their boss, for exactly what it costs the boss ? Not expecting a penny of income for themselves ? How many, if their job includes having to have insurance, bond, tools and other expenses... take all those costs in stride, on top of not getting an income for the work they do ?
........
Come on Nanny, we were not all put on this planet to be your mommy. Or your slave.
I don't know about any other professional, but I know that I never agreed to take you to raise.
If you do a service for someone else, you expect to be paid. Do NOT call me a ripoff artist if I expect to be paid for a service that I provide for you.
Quittin' Time
"The part that gets my goat, and rightly so, is where the professional is accused of ripping off the homeowner."
I'll admit, I'm at a loss. I don't know where this comes from. A homeowner looks at a 100 different places for a way to save a little money. Maybe 99 times he says "nope, I can't or don't want to do that".
Maybe he sees 1 opportunuity that he feels comfortable taking advantage of and suddenly this is all about you? You're being accused of something? When? Where? Quoting someone else's price helps tell me that this is something that makes sense to do myself. It doesn't mean they are overcharging. The simple fact that they are making a living at it is proof enough that they are NOT overcharging when it comes to the beauty of capitalism.
The fact that a person can end up benefitting from having the gumption to do some things himself is one of the beauties of America, if you ask me.
But by all means, go on being offended, if that's what floats your boat.
Nanny why don't you go to the business section & look up the guy that has a question under glass block - I think you could help him out. He sounds like a regular DIY'er.
Nanny,
Your missing the point here. These guys are not offended that you suggest a home owner do some things themselves that they are capable of managing.
What's gotten under everyone's skin is your attitude, you came across as a know it all, you minimized the procedures to do a roof and then you became insulting.
That poop don't float here.
Sorry, but change your attitude a little and you will get better responses
My 2 cents.
"....change your attitude a little and you will get better responses"
Naw CAG
He's getting exactly the responses he wanted.
View Image
Barry E
Barry, I was thinking the same thing. I think we might have a troll here, and Im wondering if there is a connection to Piffin as there was before.
Tim Mooney
Here's how I see that connection, Tim. Two facts congeal into a theory-
I happen to be here a lot
I stand up to be counted
That makes me a sort of lightning rod for unchanneled energy in need of direction. It needs something to strike at.
So when there is general frustration or whatever with the whole body of testimony against that poster and I have joined in saying something, guess who is elected to get shot at...
It's the same way on the job. I was once at a condo project with a crew of around 40-45 guys. When paychecks were a day late, everyone was griping and complaining and muttering that they wouldn't go to work until they had the paper in hand. I was the one who made that announcement on behalf of the whole crew.
Therre's a long story here but you can guess who was the only one to be given walking papers. Only time I have ever been fired and I'm thoroughly proud of it. The owner of that project was the kind who likes to win through intimidation. I got over that weakness in tenth grade so I don't get intimidated no matter how hard they blow.
Huff,
and Puff...
but it's all hot air..
Excellence is its own reward!
I see things in a similar manner. I detest what I perceive unfairness. My perceptions are not always correct but I to believe in speaking my piece. I admire that quality also as I do you. I have two qualities (or liabilities depends on who you ask) that I warned my wife about before we married. I am a rolling stone, I do what I want and like adventure of one sort or another. I cut my own groove. And I am glad of that. DanT
Question to all;
Is it possible that the DIY horror stories you've seen - been called on to fix - heard from others here on the boards - BS about at the jobsite - are the ones that went wrong? And that the ones that didn't are the ones you don't hear about?
Do you think a cardiac surgeon who spends his days unclogging arteries thinks every Joe on the street is days away from a heart attack? Of course not.
Is it possible that the DIY jobs that went right might outnumber the ones that went wrong? Maybe 2 to 1? Maybe 10 to 1?
Yet 95%of comments on these boards (not just this thread) are full of derision toward the DIY'er.
Is it possible that this is not rational?
Yes, I've been, at worst, "testy" over the course of the last flurry of posts. Has anyone honestly asked themselves why? Does it matter? Do we have to sink to the level of "he said it first" kind of immaturity?
Obviously, there are a lot of folks who can shingle a shed. Yet to take other posters seriously, you would think that either it's beyond the abilities of a handyman with a hammer or maybe it isn't, but he'd be foolish to try - after all, it's hard work.
I don't accept that either opinion is necessarily true.
Imagine you had a sporty car you pampered & did most basic maintenance on, then you visit an internet board and discover that there is a lively discussion there about how stupid people are to change their own oil, etc. Comments like "can you believe the fool forgot to put the oil cap back on...You know, the car could come off the ramps and crush you...most of those idiots don't even know the difference between 10-30 & 10-40!" LOL LOL LOL...
They act like a bunch of playground bullies seeing fault in others while refusing to acknowledge any fault of their own or of their buddies - or of their profession.
Well, that's what we've got here. That's fine, I guess. I'll stick around because I still learn stuff here occasionally when someone asks a specific question I'm interested in. But the us vs. them mentality is dissapointing and quite unneccissary.
NannyGee
"Yet 95%of comments on these boards (not just this thread) are full of derision toward the DIY'er"
Actually, I suggest that the derision is aimed at posters who don't have a clue what they are talking about. "i'm trying to wire the addition on my house, and i can't figure out what the black and white wires are for..."
If you come in here with an attitude, you can expect someone to react to it. If you come in here honestly looking for information and advice, you will find all that you need, and more.
There are about 7000 too many words for me to read here.
Anyway, the costs look maybe a bit high. You can save yourself some money and do it yourself but you will probably not get the job a good roofer will give you. Once you start you will realize how many questions you have.
Their hard earned knowlege is worth something and so add that to the T & M.
For a guy thats planning on sticking around , you are doing a poor job so far. Nuff said on that.
Now on to your real point other than bashing;
Ive walked on jobs for 40 yrs. Ive known what to look for in 35 of those years. Ive worked for myself for 32 years. Ive done jobs beside DIY jobs all my working career. I see nearly everyones work[in this town] and I can identify one pro from another many times. Ive walked on a job before and knew I was looking at Davids work for example. [David is a long time builder here] Most all pros leave a signature by the way the work is done. We also leave our personality here to view on these boards. We know each other by our writing. Same thing goes for our work. I can always tell how good the work shows. DIY work stands out like a diamond in a bulls butt. It doesnt blend with the builder that built the house.
Lets take this roof you are talking about. Ive never seen Piffins work ,but I can tell you what I would expect to see on your job if he did it .
I could line the cut edge up to compare with a string line. I could look at the drip edge and see that the line plane of the metal and the exposed edge of the roof would be perfection. Same thing goes for each and every course. I could stand on the ground with my eyes on a straight plane with the whole roof and not see nary a high nail.
Thats what a pros work looks like. Period. Can I look at your work and tell a pro didnt do it ? You bet ! You asked a no brainer question. Any pro here will agree.
Should you do the job ? You bet , if you want to. Im getting a little sick of hearing from you what a pro doesnt know. You havent paid your dues to be in that conversation. You are talking about something you have no knowledge. If you had the knowledge you would be laughing at your writing. You didnt come here to learn, you came to fake knowledge and try to sell it.
Tim Mooney
Good post Tim
Man, about the only thing on this thread worth reading was the posts about Gunner sewing himself up, Gunner, you got any pics of the work, if not maybe a pic of a roof you did would be appropriate.
some of the posts were funny though.
Doug
re: DIY surgery.
Watch for a possible upcoming post from Notchman on self surgical proceedures - got an e-mail from him saying he was researching his wife's medical books implying he may have some good techniques to share.
Heaven help us all. I can only imagine his techniques.Tamara
Now dang it! Yer puttin' me on the spot. If I post actual method here, I'll have to take out malpractice insurance and the premiums would tip me over!
I do have a tip, however: With regulated pain meds and anasthetics unavailable on a jobsite, paint stir sticks work well for biting on during the painful extraction of a nail, a sliver, wound cleaning or stitching. (If a used stir stick is available, it should be scraped free of oil-based or lead-based paint. 100% Acrylic latex is probably ok unless the proceedures being done are prolonged).Jules Quaver for President 2004
Alright, I think this thread is starting to move out of the mire and become an instructional and worthwhile source of information.
Now Gunner and Notchman I still think the pics will be of some value, skip the roof stuff though, any idiot can do a garage roof.
Doug
OK. Well, I'm a little pushed for time tonight, but here's a couple items every jobsite medical kit should have:
The top device is a scalpel used on mostly large wounds or to shave callouses.
The second item is a punch that can be handy if you got your knee with a nail gun (just an example) and you're on a work deadline and you just want to set the nail flush with the skin so it doesn't keep snagging on your pants.
Caution!!! After work, you should probably 1. Go to the nearest ER or 2. Go straight home. (Do not stop at a tavern).
Jules Quaver for President 2004
I keep a set of vise grips in my kit. Pretty usefull for pulling out nails, screws, big splinters, clamping off arteries, ripping off hangnails etc.
May I respectfully submit that a stir stick may not last long before being biten in half and spat out with more splinters in the gums, requireing the sevices of Dr Mighty Mouse and his nurse, Mickey's friend Minnie Mouse for extracation with an expensive mouse to mouth procedure.
The correct method, of course, is to choose a good heavy rubber coated #12 extension cord to use as a bite stick. remember to unplug at least one end of it first..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin
Now thats some poor advice from some one like you!
Unplug one end?
I think the proper thing to have said would be to unplug the end at the source of the power, remember this is a DIYer thread going on here. A pro might assume the proper end to unplug but that isnt good enough for the DIYer.
Doug
I wanted to give Darwin his opportunity.
Excellence is its own reward!
To Tim, CAG, & Piffin - I wish I could articulate myself more clearly on a keyboard as you guys have shown. I find as I'm reading your posts that I have thought what you are writing but I can't get it from my head to the keyboard. I don't think I could cut it in an office job - I wouldn't say working in front of a keyboard is easy - because as said the devil is in the details in anything.
Thanks for the compliment, Its deserved to tim and piffin, but I myself am not in the same class as them. They have far more knowlege and experience then me.
Good post Tim. DanT
But the us vs. them mentality is disappointing and quite unnecessary.
What don't you get?
There is no us vs them mentality. Most of the people here don't mind helping the diy guy with a question or two or even a bunch.
Its YOUR attitude that brought all this on. Dismissing the complications of something you think is easy. Well its not, its not just hard work, its more complicated then that. You keep saying your not afraid of hard work, that's an admirable quality, but hard work and simple work are not the same. Everyone thinks that their particular job is harder and more complicated then other people think. Its probably because if they are qualified they know all the complications you can run into, are aware of what to do in certain situations. The devil is in the details.
To dismiss the difficulties of something you are ignorant of does not show a willingness to learn, which is probably the most important thing to show if your asking for help. The quality of answers you will get is dependant on your base knowledge and your willingness to learn.
Sure any Joe with a hammer could probably roof a shed, that said, It will not have the same quality as a roofer could do. It wouldn't matter because its a shed, but a roof over a house, even a garage needs to be done properly, properly prepared, properly flashed, properly laid, properly nailed and I'm sure there are a hundred little details I don't know.
I for one have had enough. Think and do as you wish. But with your me VS the pro attitude you will learn little. Good luck. DanT
> Comments like "can you believe the fool forgot to put the oil cap back on.......
Back in the VW days, I rebuilt engines myself, rebuilt front ends, pulled transmissions and put them back in after rebuilding. Of course I always changed my own oil, too. And after all that, one time I forgot not the oil cap, but the oil drain plug. So here comes nice new honey-colored oil out from under the car as I'm trying to fill it. I still laugh about it when I remember it.....
The point is, we all screw up some times. Experienced professionals screw up far less often than those of us who are just starting to learn. The important thing is to learn from our mistakes, whether they be in changing oil, building, or carrying on a cordial discussion with other practitioners on the internet.
-- J.S.
Hey, I consider myself reasonably intelligent on basic vehicle maintenance. Yet, I drove about 250 miles one time in fairly hot weather with the radiator cap off. When I stopped a green puddle appeared under the car. I'd just flushed and refilled the cooling system the day before and forgot to put the cap back on. Really dumb.
Amazingly, the car never even got overly hot. I regularly look at the temp gauge and would have noticed.
Sure, everyone makes mistakes. No reason to label anyone an idiot. But, amatuers make mistakes because they don't realize they're not doing something, or they're doing something wrong. Pros make mistakes because they forget to do something, or get in a hurry. And, they're much less likely to make as many mistakes as us novices. A pro may forget to order drip edge. An amatuer may not even realize it's needed.
That's why this forum is so useful. It lets us learn from the pros so we are less likely to miss important things. Or, so we can realize when it's time to hire a pro.
Hey I'm all for the DIYer. I saved myself $1100 with this link:
http://mycroft.net/drb/selfroot.htm
I'm not a roofer and would never want to be one. I have helped on a few roofs,
Have you ever been on a roof? Done any roofing at all?
Its hard damn work, Its hot as hell in the summer being on top of shingles, Its not fun when its cooler either. Your hands get torn up, your back is killing you, especially on a low pitched roof, a high pitched roof and you have to worry about not slipping. And a package of singles is not what I would call light especially trying to carry them up a sloped roof.
Only eight feet you say, Ever fallen eight feet? I have onto soft soil, I broke my arm, and was bruised all to hell. I cant imagine what it would have done if it was concrete.
Theres a lot more that goes into a good roofing job then just applying the shingles and if it leaks your screwed, even in a garage, part of the protection a roof offers is not only keeping water out of the living space but keeping water off the sheeting underneath the roofing as well as the rest of structure.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it sounds like your saying something is easy before you ever try it.
Roofers deserve every dime they get
After all that, if you want to try it yourself go for it.
Its only a garage right?
"Have you ever been on a roof? Done any roofing at all?"
Roofs: I've done a 2200 sq ft house, a 900 sq ft cabin, a 200 sq ft shed, a 300 sq ft addition and a few odd repairs. That's not a lot, but it's enough.
Never said it was easy. It's very hard work. If I were older, I wouldn't do it. But, especially in this case IT IS SIMPLE WORK. There is a difference between easy and simple and I'm not scared of hard work.
I don't even need the work done now. I was simply speeking hypothetically.
"Ever fallen eight feet?"
No. I fell about 10 feet once without a scratch, but I was lucky. I'll never do a steep pitch roof.
Edited 2/2/2003 3:36:43 PM ET by NannyGee
IT IS SIMPLE WORK
Doing an open plane of roof may be simple, but doing valleys, cutting around vents etc is not simple, it takes practice, and experience to do it right, same as with everything else
I dont think the average home owner would be able on first attempt to single a valley and cut around vents in a manner that was correct and remained water tight. Then you get into step flashing, which isnt really hard, but something the DIY homeowner probably wouldnt give much thought too. Like I said there is a lot more that goes into a roof beyond laying single
:-)
Everything you said about more complicated roofs is true (although I'll still argue the learning curve is pretty quick).
And at no point did I ever suggest otherwise. In fact, I've just about tied myself into knots here trying to explicitly limit the discussion to the particular job in question despite others blowing up into something that was never intended.
The bottom line here is that it's mostly HARD work. And when someone steps up to the plate to do something HARD instead of throwing money at the problem to make it go away and sipping lemonage while sitting in his lounge chair, I'm inclined to slap him on the back and admire him.
One thing I'll never do is imply he's a fool.
Fair enough
"I'll never do a steep pitch roof. "
Those hold the least amount of accidents because you "know' your butt is on the line , plus it keeps you thinking . Most accidents happen when a person is not thinking. Dumb huh ohs.
Tim Mooney
"Dumb huh ohs. "
You are way right Tim.
Of all the falls I can remember seeing or hearing about, only two of them were from steep pitched roofs.
It is an attitude thing. You don't suppose the Nanny has one, do you?.
Excellence is its own reward!
I am a DIY'er. I will do electric, plumbing, minor framing (basement finish for example), trim and builtins. In fact last year I rented an excavator and put in some drainage pipe, trench drains, and fixed a stone wall.
But I AIN't putting on a new roof.
Simple work.
I wish I had a dollar for every time I fixed roofs done by people who made that assumption.
I won't contest the concept that a DIY CAN, in some situations, save himself a pretty penny, but in many of the cases I have seen, they only save half as much as they assume they might, and often end up spending more than they would to have a pro handle it. They should just be able to count the cost. You have started an interesting thread but have provided them with inaccurate information and ill-informed assumptions, doing them no good service. I've got an interest in providing truth.
Now strap your self in because this will be a nice long ride. You asked for it. Now your gonna get it, Troll face. I know I'm wasting my time on you since yuou are just here to pick fights but other people reading this need to understand the facts. You pose as someone who knows but it is obvious to everyone in the business that you are a wind bag. I'm poking a hole in your hot air balloon. Careful how you land. This will be entertaining...
"27176.24 in reply to 27176.14 I have to wonder about the personality of a poster..."
Don't wear your self out with wonderment! I have no personality.
"who goes to such great pains (an impressive drawing) to try to make me look foolish. Are you that insecure?"
There were no great pains involved. Nine clicks to draw four walls. five clicks to edit to dimensions. two clicks to create a section drawing. four more clicks to add a dimension line. Didn't take any longer than typing this paragraph. Three more clicks and I had a materials list which I then verified with the calculations I showed.
The purpose was not to make you look foolish. It was to try to educate you. You take care of the foolish appearance all by your self.
Am I insecure? Not that I ever noticed. But I'm not the one who starts threads claiming to know more than professionals at their own game. Your last one that I remember interacting with you on was where you thought that we were all too afraid to go out on a limb and try anything creative or outside the codes because we advise asking an engineeer for advice too often.
"I multiply by 18, not 20, since my little garage has no overhang on the gable ends, as I clearly stated."
You most surely did not clearly state that. Here's your statement from #6 post,
"My own 1-car is 18x12, 5/12 + 12" overhang on the shed sides = 3 square "
Now, a gable roof with ridge has two types of sides. The gable end and the eave. There is no shed end to it. A shed roof has only one plane to it so you weren't clear. While acting like you know so much, you don't even know what words to use. In any event, you were not clear about it. You did NOT say anything about no overhang on gable ends.
The whole point is that you were trying to justify your position with "precise" figures but did not account for jobsite reality and you did not give precise facts to me to work with and then criticised my conclusion. Not a very precise way of communicating.
You plan to build your own house someday, you have stated elsewhere. You need to learn to estimate and communicate clearly, or expect several disapppoinments as the work progresses on it.
"there is almost no waste involved."
Maybe, but you again display your ignorance of materials. If the roof is between 18' and 21', using 36" shingles, you will have usage amounting to the same roof as a 21' long roof will take. It is also a fact that you can find from any supplier and manufacturer as much as three percent of bad or damaged shingles in your delivery. DIY handling process can add another five percent. Don't take it personal, I'm just reporting jobsite reality. Don't like reality? You can't change it so you'll have to stay in your bunker while your wife goes out to work and picks up the vitamins. (oops, was that a personal insult, Bob?)
"the "architectual" style (faux shakes) don't require a starter strip "
ROTFLMAO
......excuse me a minute while I pick myself up.....
" you can use leftovers from a previous job for this. "
So just how many previous jobs does this DIY do that we can expect him to have leftover shingles laying around? You are giving me big laughs today. Thanks for the entertainment. I've got to say, I enjoyed watching you trip over your bootlaces. It was like an old Charlie Chaplin act. LOL
"If my calculations offended you, why didn't you get offended by the guy who threw out 7-8 sq. for the 2-car"
I don't get offended, I just set the facts straight. Bob knew what he was talking about. You were full of bull. He didn't need correction on this thread. (he get's that elsewhere) You came on asking to be corrected. That's why. .
Excellence is its own reward!
I'd be very careful about doing business with someone who offers one price for all. First, to assume tearoff is included will surely surprise you. A lot of these roofers offering specials are gypsies so you need to check them out.
My premium for my contractor's insurance would be more money if I did roofs so to say a young, healthy, homeowner could do it is oversimplification of the danger involved crawling all over a roof banging down shingles. Most healthy young homeowners today wouldn,t make it past carrying the second bundle of shingles up the ladder. My opinion.
I love homeowners with too much money on their hands. Keeps me busy!
Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
I'd be very careful about doing business with someone who offers one price for all.
There are sections of my area where you can drive down alleys and see the sme basic garage time after time, and one price can fit all.
I suspect it might be effective marketing - I suspect a lot of people are afraid of the process because of the uncertainty involved, this takes one element of uncertainty away for them._______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Yea, you're right. I forgot about areas of St. Louis, where I was raised a long time ago, that had the same garages going down the alley. Harry's Homeworks
Rhode Island
"I suspect it might be effective marketing - I suspect a lot of people are afraid of the process because of the uncertainty involved, this takes one element of uncertainty away for them."
Absolutely. There are plenty of folks that just have no interest in messing with this sort of thing. They are your customers. I have no issue whatsoever with them as customers or the pros as providers of a service.
I'm just pointing out that there are also a lot of people (maybe the majority?) who are at this very moment beating their heads against the wall wondering how they can save $1000, because that's real money to them.
They probably shouldn't save it by doing
wiring
plumbing
furnace
major structural
trimwork
flooring
cabinetry
or even the roofing their actual home
But if they tell me their garage needs reroofing and there doesn't seem to be other issues with the structure, I'm going to tell them how they can save $1000. And I'm not going to apologize to any of the hyper-sensitive here about it.
Edited 2/2/2003 11:23:03 AM ET by NannyGee
do it your self no warrenty fall off the roof no comp hurt your back loading the roof no comp when it leaks fix it your self go ahead or better yet hire a couple of unlicensed scabs to do it for cheap and then when one of them falls or get hurt they can sue you how much will you save then
i have been a contractor for 12 years i do not do roofs
have fun
Edited 2/2/2003 12:09:53 PM ET by village handyman
Roof their own house! In my neighborhood people don't even mow their own lawns! : )
I can't believe I read the whole thing.
piffen, that has to be one of the longest and best post from you that I have ever read.
Dave
don't be sayin' that now, or I'll get a big head on.
LOL
or
not to mention one of the most well deserved.
Thanks.
Excellence is its own reward!
Aw heck, this is still going? Time to wade in maybe?
"MOST folks are NOT capable of accomplishing this task".
IMHO the 'not capable" is BS, now a statement "MOST folks are too LAZY to even consider this task" I would agree with. (Of course, this assumes MOST people are relatively healthy and not disabled, etc., whole different situation then)
Theodora's statement also makes sense -- My wife would like you Theodora, one job she won't help with anymore or do herself after doing it twice is also roofing. (another is tarring the outside of basement walls). I actually had a rental I sold re-roofed 3 years ago 'cause of time factors, sure hurt to write that check.
One thing I only know a few people to have done on a small scale DIY is surgery (simple stiches) on self, and then only when both hand can get to the part that needs work. I probably would agree that DIY dentistry on yourself is futile except for extraction - seem to recall a very old Luka post on self dental extractions <G>. Did work in the late '60's with a man who, as part of team of guys with no experience except having read about the proceedure in anatomy classes, successfully perfomed an appendectomy in Japanese prison camp with a hidden shard of pen knife blade. He was a good mentor.
"MOST folks are too LAZY to even consider this task"
Well, there you go Art, that's what I meant to say! I fear I am in fact completely capable of doing the task, just maybe in seven weeks, not one day. I know for sure I am too lazy to do it, and it would mess up my nails. I didn't work on my own roof, but I sure spent a long afternoon throwing all the garbage in the dumpster on a deadline. Yucky.
I think the auto-surgery would be a great kick, too."Her own mother lived the latter years of her life in the horrible suspicion that electricity was dripping invisibly all over the house."-????
"auto-surgery would be a great kick, too"
There is definetely a squeamy factor here. First time as a DIY on surgery was Christmas Eve, 1971. Kids and I were home from early church service and wife was playing the organ at a later service. Sllipped with ax splitting extra firewood in the dark (hey we all gotta learn not to do dumb stuff sometime, huh?) for the fire for when she got home, put 3" gash in leg. Grabbed sewing stuff an a couple of needle nose plies (neat name for them in this aspect) and sat on edge of bathtub with 6 YO and 4 YO sons watching. The 4 YO was facinated, the 6 YO couldn't take watching blood dripping, but think he's gotten over that by now. BTW, human skin is really tough, never could have pushed plain sewing needle thru without the pliers. Later was able to obtain real surgical needles, much easier that way <G>.
I watched my mother sew up a rabbit's wounded leg once. Our golden retriever got it, and the skin where its back leg attached to its underneath was torn. My Dad grabbed the rabbit and held it, and my Mom stitched it up. Only after she finished and she started crooning to the rabbit did it let out that scream scared rabbits do. They let it loose and we recognized "Limpy" around the place for many years after that. In retrospect, I am amazed and proud of her."Her own mother lived the latter years of her life in the horrible suspicion that electricity was dripping invisibly all over the house."-????
"a small scale DIY is surgery (simple stiches) on self,"
Hey me too! I did twelve on myself. Not to hard, as long as you can remain calm and keep everyone else calm. I drank a half gallon of Orange Juice to replenish myself and went back at it.
I really didn't want to participate in this thread, now you've sucked me in.
I sewed my knee up once after a chainsaw error, but as I gained more experience (with getting more wounds), I found that a good commercial grade of duct tape is quicker and easier so I always keep a roll under my truck seat where it helps keep the first aid kit from sliding around. (It's tough to get off though and a Doc upbraded me once in the ER).Jules Quaver for President 2004
I couldn't duct tape myself back together. There's something amateurish about it. If your going to invite infection you need to keep it on a proffesional looking level.
Last time I had stitches I compared notes with the doc. I noticed he used the same stitching pattern as me. I said. "Hey that's the way I do mine." He gave me that you must be kidding me look over top of his bi-focals. I said. "Seriously I was in a swamp in Virginia and did twelve on myself." He shook his head no and said 'I don't even want to know."
Never been hurt in a swamp where I had to really worry about infection, never have gotten an infection from any wound except for big cat bite (water snake bites never even infected) once 30 years ago.
I didn't get infected either. Just cleaned everything real good.
I didn't get infected either. Just cleaned everything real good
Sounds like you talking to your buds on a monday after a night in the TAV eh buddy...:>)
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I ll have it done by next Tuesday Oh yea I need another draw.........
LMFAO!
Well, the time I stitched myself, I used a sewing needle and some green thread because that's what was handy. And I used needle nosed pliers as someone else mentioned. It actually didn't hurt all that much.
But, alas, I'm a lousy seamstress and, while it held together, it was a real hack job.
I want to point out though, that if one is to use Duct tape, I recommend the commercial grade and not that $1.99 a roll stuff in the DIY bargain bin. (Using Duct tape may be amateurish, but it's quick and strong).
(In the spirit of Finehomebuilding, however, I admire your dedication to excellence...even extending it to self-suturing!)Jules Quaver for President 2004
Put a 1 inch gash in back of right hand once and tried (success!) one handed fix with isocyante (crazy glue). That worked really well, but man does that stuff burn in a cut!
Piece of steel I'd just torched once fell at odd angle and put 3 inch cut in back of left hand, totally opened the vein, so actualy went in for 'professional' treatment. After 2 hr wait in emerg. room, it had stopped bleeding, fully sure that duct tape would have done better job than the intern did that day - no vein repair, they just close'em off - heck, could of done it myself one handed if the vein was going to be blocked anyway! Will take care of any 'minor' cuts like that with duct tape 'butterflys" in the future <G>
Gunner,
Not sure if I saw it here or some one told me about it, but theres now a self stapler on the market for people to patch themshelves up until they can get to a doc
Is that the one they sell on the cable channels for 29 bucks and if you order now, you get a little hand stapler? :).Jules Quaver for President 2004
lmao, dont know, are you talking about the one where the lady sows the drapes on the wall?
Yeah, that's the one. 'Spose that would fit in a first aid kit?
Actually, I've been mulling over Gunner's methods of self-stitchery. The craftmanship aspect has a certain appeal.
Wonder if Andy Engel would entertain the idea of running an article in the magazine about Jobsite Surgery and closure methods. There's been some trolls around here of late we could mess up and then demonstrate on for a photo spread.Jules Quaver for President 2004
"Actually, I've been mulling over Gunner's methods of self-stitchery. The craftmanship aspect has a certain appeal."
Well you know notch, you always have to take pride in whatever your doing. Even if it involves stopping a leaking leg.
When I was 18 I was working in downtown San Diego, I sliced my leg open by accident. I was working for this hard arsed old guy that looked at me and said. "I don't know where the hospital is, but have the truck back by quitting time. I drove around for an hour or so before I found one. I found a group of cabbies milling around and decided to stop and ask them. I stopped in the middle of the street and got out and approached them. I had just gotten out of the truck when they all stopped chatting, they looked at me and all at the same time pointed and said. "Go back a block turn left up one, turn right and it's right there." I was still coherent enough to watch the doc stitch me up. That's when I decided I could do my own.I even made it back by quitting time.
Read a magazine article about that self stapling kit. Some magazine had purchased some crazy gifts for the person who has everything then did a review of each one.
The wound stapling kit came with no instructions at all. Cost about $30 I think.
Oh, for some reason they didn't recommend it as a gift.
WELL fella's I got DIY network at home so who needs a pro anyway!
(heard said at Home depot) LOL
There ya go.
Tim Mooney
don't be sayin' that now, or I'll get a big head on
Hey buddy, this aint that kinda buliten board keep it in your pants :)
I like the style you took, lot of guys (most likely I am included) would have become slightly irrate. Your calm and collected and still manage to get your point across...
Can I ask you something? Does this guy not know that if it were that easy that EVERYONE would be doing it? Let me say I am on clean up with roof at times. Just the picking up the crap and hauling. Most wouldn't want to do it MUCH LESS roof the thing themselves. Another thing....this makes DIY then think "Well if it is really this easy maybe I should do it" That is what I am concerned about is giving them a false sense of saftey.
I hate that hubby does roofs. I have asked that he sub this out. Would help with workmans comp. etc. By the way he fell off a tin roof two years ago. Broke the femur and tibia. I remember him calling me on the cellphone. I asked "What is wrong?" He said "Well I am laying here on the ground" I said "WHAT?" Then when I saw where he fell I was thankful he didn't fall straight off the mountain top. No kidding. By the way this was a basic tin roof job. He has done some roofs that no roofer around here will touch. The pitch is unreal.
If you are a DIY please beware it "ain't as easy as it appears"Tamara
There is an old post about 'surviving falls' you may find enlightening to read.
May have an advantage in early education in that Maternal grandfather died in a fall from a ladder (although unfortunately did inherit the 'accident prone' gene). Mother taught us early on to either stay off ladders or use safety equipment. Have to admit lazinsess on own part sometimes though, often work on up to 3/12 composition roofs without harness.
Ok, well if you have significant experience in roofing as you say. And if you don't need a roof currently. Why the post? Just wanted to learn proper terminology? Wanted to learn how to measure? Hint: the terms change regionally but the measuring is the same! Good luck on your do it yourself roof! Hope it goes better than some I have seen. DanT
The one logical part of Nanny's argument, it seems to me, is that if a DIYer's gonna do a roof, he or she should start with a garage. Then if the roof fails, only the car will get wet, whereas if a house roof fails, there goes the plaster, hardwood floors, furniture, etc.
Having done two roofs in the past two years—both small rentals—I have to say it's the hardest work I've ever done. One took a week, the other two weeks (needed sheathing). I did save money, but only if you don't count my time!
Most homeowners aren't gonna want to do this job. The price Nanny quotes seems very reasonable to me.
Do you refer to the price he quotes for how much he thinks he can save, or what he quotes as the advertised price in his newspaper?.
Excellence is its own reward!
(to all...)
It's interesting that yours and several others simply assumed I was here to ask advice. I'm not. I don't need a roof done at the moment. Nor am I - as was sarcastically suggested - here to tell you anything you don't already know. I'm here to point out a perspective, however boneheaded anyone might think it to be.
I, and many others I know have a willingness to do some things ourselves that others most often do as a service for pay. I have certain things I'm willing to try, others have other things. We do some time watching, reading, a little small time apprenticeship, and when we're ready to go it alone we give some thought to how big a bite we are willing to chew and then take our best shot. It's not always just about the money, but it's often a factor. But one thing we do have in common is a little courage and a little gumption. I admire those qualities when I see it in others. Let me restate what I wrote many posts ago...
"The bottom line here is that it's mostly HARD work. And when someone steps up to the plate to do something HARD instead of throwing money at the problem to make it go away and sipping lemonage while sitting in his lounge chair, I'm inclined to slap him on the back and admire him.
One thing I'll never do is imply he's a fool"
DIY is not a dirty word. Playing an instrument without having attended a school of music is admirable. So is being able to fix your own car or make your own clothes or cut your own firewood.
Still, there are many jobs I have no intertest in doing myself. Then I'll call a professional. And if I have to collect bids, I'll be just as likely to favor the guy who isn't an #ss as the one who is cheapest.
Some of the folks here might want to ask yourselves if their fellow posters are the best representatives for their professon.
I'm not sure how valuable it would be to try to list my "credentials" here to try to prove myself when all you have to do is simply dismiss me like a pouty child. But I could just as well switch sides and call myself a professional if I was interested in doing other people's work. I've had to turn away a lot of work because it would take away from my real job, which is being a stay-home parent to our three young children (teaching teenagers before that). I've designed, built and sold two homes and other smaller projects for very happy buyers. I've had dozens of people look at me funny when I tell them I have no interest in trying to get our current home in a magazine.
But hey, I'm just bloin' smoke. I'm just a DIY taking money out of the hands of better folk with better tools and a bigger truck.
Edited 2/2/2003 11:04:10 PM ET by NannyGee
I also live in one of those neighborhoods where most people don't mow their own lawns. That said, I'd probably be one of those DIYers reshingling the garage. Not that I couldn't or wouldn't pay the prices charged, which don't seem out of line in a high-cost area of the country. I've used roll roofing on sheds in the past, and put up corrugated metal and fiberglass. It just seems like a doable job, and one I'd get some satisfaction from, even realizing the risk.
On the other hand, the chances that I'd try the whole house are zero. I know that my speed, tools, and endurance would be insufficient. Of course, the only outbuilding at my house is an 8X8 shed (full to capacity with 3 bikes and a lawnmower), so it's easy for me to say.
If homeowners were just that, "homeowners", instead of DIY'ers playing contractor,think of how much more work we would have and how the majority of it would be done right. JMO