I just finished repairing a leaky chimney for a friend. It’s a framed chimney with Hardiplank siding. Leaked on inside ceiling corner of living room and down the corner. He’d had a guy “fix” it once before by taking off a few courses of siding and putting down flashing. Started leaking again a few years later, not every rain but everytime we have a big rain event – lots of rain, long duration.
He wanted me to just try replacing the deteriorating pressed hardboard trim with Harditrim and caulk the proverbial sh*t out of it. Well, I pull the pieces (hundreds) of mushy trim off by hand and find that the previous “repairman” had put the flashing over the housewrap and then siliconed the joint. The shingles looked pretty good. Backside of housewrap felt moist. No sheathing just studs.
I call him on the cellular from his ridgeline, tell him what’s up and that what I think should be done is to remove all the siding, at least down below the eave of the house, wrap the chimney with tar paper (over the flashing), and reinstall the siding.
Tried to be ginger with the siding, could tell right quick that was fruitless as every single course was either broken off or cracked on corners where originally installed. Just ripped it all off and decided to put on new siding.
Hate that crap. Had to pre-drill and handnail every piece. His wife and mine wondered why it was taking so long, and wasn’t this going to be expensive? Well, besides the working alone trying to wrap a chimney with a good gusty wind blowin they have a 20′ leyand cypress 3 ft from the chimney and a chainlink fence that bisected it at just the perfect place to get in the way. So, I had to work off a couple extension ladders that had to be moved around and up and down repeatedly and a stepladder.
Anyway I don’t think he’ll have a leak any more, but now I’m feeling a little guiltly about the cost run-up labor wise. He’s pleased with the quality of the job, and joked that he’d get it back when does some welding for me.
What is the moral of this story?
I think it really started bothering me when I had my first call recently complaining about an invoice that seemed too high for some repair to rotten/missing trim work. He said I told him that it was only about $200. I said, ‘Yes I did but that was only the labor amount to that point and you may not realize I worked on it for 3 more hours that day. Add in materials at $50, and it adds up to $320.’ He’s mailing a check, but he ain’t happy to say the least.
I know I have to have thicker skin if I’m going to succeed. But, what’s killing me is that I got into this because I like building and fixing houses/structures, and I insist on doing it the right way. Well, I’m starting to realize most folks would rather pay a Jack-Leg $200 for something that’s looks ok or doesn’t leak for a few months to years instead of paying me $320 to back prime, set nails, caulk, putty, sand and reprime.
They bitch about bad construction and sh*tty houses, but don’t want to pay 20-30% more for things to be done the right way. They also don’t understand why those same guys want to be paid in cash at the end of everyday, or why they never call back, or show up, or finish what they take apart. Georgia must be one of the most sorry State of affairs when it comes to construction trades. Hell, you gotta have training, exam, and a State license to cut hair or check out library books, but any dumbass can build your house.
My wife and I have decided that maybe in the end it will be better to get the rep from the beginning that I’m expensive, but of high quality, reliability, and integrity.
So, I’m going to start over-emphasizing to potential customers that I do things like I would on my own home – the right way – and as such I usually take longer and cost more than others.
I’ve told them this before, but they seem to not appreciate it when it comes time to pay the bill.
Gotta remember to get that carbonless contract printed up, cause I know it’s only a matter of time.
Any advice, constructive criticisms, or thoughts?
P.S. The guy bitching about the $320 bill had shown me where the original builder of his 3K sq ft house had installed outlets all around the sunroom which didn’t even have wiring run to them. What a sorry builder he remarked repeatedly as he showed me around to everything he wanted fixed. BTW,the guy who originally came to fix the trim just took off the old pieces and never came back. I cost more cause I actually show up and do the work.
MikeVB
Edited 9/25/2004 11:01 pm ET by MikeVB
Replies
Hey!!! Be pricey and be proud of it. Some one has to fill that niche.
-m2akita
I hate small couple of hour jobs. They always seem to turn into something a little bigger. Some times a lot bigger.
I try to avoid getting into them to begin with but when some one insists I give them a quote for a full day. Then if everything goes right and I can actually get out of there in three or four hours thats what I charge them for. Then I look like a great guy verses one who quoted 4 hours and charged for eight.
Bid high and then if you come in under the wire, tell them it will be less $$ than you expected. It is all in their heads. Tell them it will cost $350 and it winds up costing $320 and they are happy. Tell them it will cost $200 and it costs $320 and they're pissy.
I suppose there is a fine line b/w bidding high and not getting the jobs, but as you yourself said, perhaps you should foster a reputation of a higher level of craftsmanship.
Do you do the work full time, or part time? It is even easier to try and foster a certain reputation if its just a part time job. ha ha, as a full time job you're more concerned with keeping bread on the table (and in the bank).
Don't ever apologize or feel guilty for the fair price that you charge. I reciently had a guy and his partner call me back on an estimate that I gave them insisting it was too expensive and they wanted me to do the job cheaper. I told them no, find somebody else. I knew they couldn't because it involved decorative plaster work. So in the same conversation he wanted me to agree that if I found that I made too high a profit I would knock off some $$ and "be fair". I said that's fine if you're willing to give me more $$ if I think I don't make a good enough profit. He stammered and blustered. I then asked him if he does this with his auto mechanic? Or the mortgage company? Or better yet if he had five bags of groceries and at the checkout does he confront the cashier and tell them that he thinks it's too much money for the five bags and he only wants to pay for three? I called the lumber yard that recommended me to him and told them the story just to clear things in case he came bitching back to them. I was supposed to call back to set up a date but never did nor am I about to, and if he calls back agreeing to pay me for the job I'll just tell him I'm not doing it...done deal. Twenty six years in the business and the gall of some people still amazes me.
I was also going to say that if it's repair work you're doing and there's any hint of damage being hidden (99% of the time it is), I always charge t&m. Just tell them you can't do it any other way.
Value is a subjective thing to most home owners. The problem is they usually can't recognize quality when it's standing right in front of them. The opposite is equally true. Somewhere in the initial meeting I always drop the phrase, "You get what you pay for."
You did well to make the quality repair to the chimney and eventually they'll recognize the improvement (no more leaks). Quality costs more regardless what form it takes. Stand by your guns the way you do your work. How many horror stories are floating around about incompetent contractors doing poor work? Just instill in your customer the idea they're paying a reasonable price for a rare commodity, quality...
Being in a somewhat similiar situation as yourself, I feel your pain. I currently work about three days a week fixing/repairing/rebuilding what the builder just seemed to ignore. Some of the homes I work on are less than 5 yoa and others in the 10-15 age group where things start to go, wear out, etc. Most of this is due to lack of proper maintenance. Some is the result of the HO going with the cheapest fix initially.
Insofar as my pricing is concerned I explain that while I am not the least expensive I do shpw up as scheduled, complete the work requested, and always return phone calls. Explanations regarding back priming, putty/caulk etc are good but have found that most HO's just don't care. As long as it satisfy's the eye!! Of course this brings up a whole 'nother conversation regarding latent defects etc., etc.
I've built up a somewhat steady list of clients and word of mouth helps (no advertising). I've also been in the position where the HO goes with the low guy, see's the crap they try to pass off as quality, and call me back, usually at a higher rate to fix others work. BTW, where in the "No License Req'd" state of GA do you live?? I'm NE of Hotlanta.
Best Regards
I'm in Leesburg, 12 miles north of Albany. Although my wife is from Albany and my family lives in Adel, we've thought about moving back up to NE GA. We both went to UGA and lived in Athens about 10 yrs.
I'm also a wildlife biologist, worked for GA DNR for almost a decade and hated every day. So, I'm also doing nuisance wildlife work on the side and occasional consulting on deer and/or pond mgt.
Where are you located?
I thought the NE corner, Dahlonega say, would be a good compromise of a good place to raise 3 kids, yet close enough for the Atlanta effect that would be good for construction and wildlife.
Lots more Bluegrass opportunities, also.
Hi Mike. Myself, I live in Forsyth Co. (Cumming) about 30 minutes SE of Dahlonega. Nice area up there and it still seems that folks are opting to move further north, trying to escape. Primary homes, get away properties, etc. Hwy 400 has turned into a major parking lot as far north as SR 369 in the mornings/evenings, as opposed to an autobahn the rest of the time. Of course, if you concentrated your efforts towards Ellijay and some of those areas you might do alright.
Hard to say, as I can stay pretty busy just in my area.
I'm not trying to scare you off, just passing along some friendly advice.
Best Regards,
Neil Wilhelm
I just spent the weekend in Atlanta, looking at potentially moving there. A friend had asked me to come down to look at the $700k, 4,500 SF house he's having built in Buckhead. I gotta tell ya- the quality, even in a house of that price and size is atrocious! His house is still in framing, and I beat it up pretty bad (his super will be busy fixing/replacing things for quite a while...lol). We walked several houses that were getting prepped for closings, and the finish work was downright awful- nail blowouts in MDF painted right over, 1/8" gaps at miters in 9" crown caulked and painted, so much dust in the painted baseboards that the finish felt like 80grit sandpaper, etc. We took a ton of digital pics and emailed them to the developer, PM, and super, telling them not to bother scheduling a closing on his house if it looked like the ones in the photos.
Aside from that, Forsyth County looks like a great place to raise the kids (check out the Vickery development in Cumming if you get the chance- gorgeous architecture, though the quality is marginal for the prices they're getting). I'm a little concerned about the salarys down there though. If I could ask, what are you able to bill out at per hour for handyman and reno work, and do you see those numbers being the low, high or middle of the range down there? That'll give me a guage relative to the current rates here in NJ.
Bob
Hi Bob,
I live in the Cumming area and yes it's a nice spot but.........still too close to ATL. Seems to get more crowded up here by the day.
Insofar as billable rates, it usually ends up at around $45/hr on the high end, excluding materials. I've found that for some work involving demolition you're better off pricing demo as lump sum (including disposal) line item.
Insofar as quality of construction goes I refer you to the 'Curiously Concerned' thread that was here at BT a few weeks ago. In a nutshell, I declined to provide further assistance as the HO stated there builder friend was going to 'fix it'. Details of the fix were/are cloudy but you can't force people to accept your advice. My first trip was gratis, detailed field investigation w/follow up report of findings, recommended solution and associated price were going to cost money.
As an aside, a new customer just picked up Saturday has asked me for a detailed inspection of there bay window leak. They just had it fixed Thursday, looks like some ripped down 90# felt use as flashing from the brick to the top of the cap. Looked at the receipt given this HO and buisness name is...........wait for it............Carpet Creations!!! So in closing, should you decide to move to Hotlanta please remember that your competition is everywhere and no matter what trade they happen to be an 'expert' at they, apparently, are also good at selling snake oil as well.
BTW, if you do decide to move, look me up here at BT and I'll buy you a cup.
Best Regards,
Neil Wilhelm
I just thought of something...on a job like the one described, where the majority of the work will be hidden when it's completed (particularly when it's up on top of the roof where it's hard to see anyway), would it be worthwhile to keep a small digital camera in your toolbelt and take pictures as you work? It would only add a few seconds to the job, and when the customer complains about the bill you could show them documentation of all the hidden damage and all you had to do to fix it.
I think photos are a great idea. I take them for my own purposes... document what I did or what I was up against if it gets ugly, keep a record of details I might want to use again later, etc. I shoot film and get 2x prints, edit them and give a handful to the owner. It still can't make people appreciate the friggin' amount of work that can go into being 'meticulous' and 'detail-oriented' and protecting them from future problems with their house, etc... the people who think that caulk equals roof-to-wall flashing or that trim equals waterproofing.
I havent read the rest of the thread , it doesnt matter.
Skake this sh#tt off and now ! You are beating your self up . Based on what you said, and that alone you are justified. You called the dude on the cell phone and told him what was up . He could have came home and up the ladders , but evidently he TRUSTED you ! That was his call and its came to an end. Hold your head high and blow it off. All customers are not like that . Sounded like you were very honest of the situation.
If this continues , you may want to think about a no pressure to public job, because dealing with the public in construction isnt that type of job.
Hang in there ,
Tim Mooney
just out of curiosity...what exactly was the extra yard..??? I useually go the whole 9 yards..if you billed for ten, mebbe he knows it's non-existant? {G}
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
You, and the HO, can look at it this way--HO can pay some "repairman" a couple hundred and have to have it "re-fixed" annually for another couple hundred each time, or have it done right and once for the same price as a bunch of repairs that didn't work (while risking damage to the interior of the house and contents from the bandaid jobs). I think you did well and the guy should thank you. And you should stop second guessing yourself (though I often do the same thing). :-)
To clarify what was apparently pretty muddy in my original post:
The guy questioning the invoice was bitching about $320 vs what he said I told him was only $200 for replacing/stabilizing rotten basetrim, basecap, etc. around the front porch posts. I charged him for 9 hrs labor and $50 materials. I made it clear to him on my initial site visit that for repairs I was totally T&M, and he said ok. I told him I was higher than some who would just slap something up, and if he didn't want to pay for someone who took his time and did it right, then he didn't want me. He basically said right on, that's what I want. The last guy I called to fix it came and took the trim off and hasn't come back in 4 months.
The guy with the chimney job is a friend of mine that asked me to help stop the leak. When I looked at it I told him I was uncomfortable working for friends and relatives cause everybody wants a good deal, but if I was there working for him I couldn't be charging someone somewhere else. He said don't worry about it. I feel kinda guilty cause I grossly underestimated that it would only take two days to do it, but it wound up taking four. When I raised my concerns with him on the last morning he seemed to shrug it off.
I know I'll get better at estimating my time and costs, but I don't like working for friends, especially ones that don't know much about construction.
I've also decided that I don't care much for working with Hardiboard - DUSTY SH*T! And, can't put it up with a gun, at least not w/o risk of cracking it, overdriving, etc.
I've been keeping a digital camera in the truck to take photos of jobs. I took pics of the exterior door I wound up putting in twice a few weeks ago. Slab house, took photos of the front sole plate hanging halfway - no sh*t here now - halfway of the slab. Took that in case ever needed it in a courtroom.
I need to get a few carbonless contract documents printed up to get folks to sign onto. What are the basics, and are there any examples on-line of good templates to follow?
It would also be nice to be able to print them myself, does anyone know if that's possible?
MikeVB
Your "friend" sounds like the guy who always tries to buy the 'first' round.
Never feel bad about doing good work for a fair price.
Good News Guys!
I called my friend this evening and the chimney leak has not returned through 24 hrs of hard and blowing rain from Hurricance Jeane here in South Georgia.
I told him I guaranteed that the fix would work assuming the leak wasn't from higher up the roof and running down the underside. But, given the location I figured it was what it was.
Was glad to have it pass such a brutal test so soon.