Our very small town just spent about $150,000 (Federal grant) to build a community center. The building is 50 x 80, on a slab, and is quite nice inside. Several of us have some questions about exterior design issues, but no expertise to know what’s right/good, and what’s not. I’ve talked to the builder about these things and he’s said he basically did what the architect spec’d. Before talking to the architect, we’d like to know a little more. There should be a picture for each issue.
1. ALL the exterior doors in the building have good sized ‘holes’ somewhere around the bottom, where the weatherstrip doesn’t touch/seal. The picture is of the back door. From the front door, 80 feet away, you can easily see daylight streaming through this gap. The builder acknowledges rain/snow/bugs WILL come through this hole, but says if he closes the gap with the weatherstrip it will tear itself up as the door is opened and closed. Professes to not know of a good solution.
2. The sidewalk elevation appears as though it will trap any rain water and or water coming off the roof, between the building and the sidewalk. Is this not a concern?
3. The gutters look very large–too me– but the downspouts–2 on each side of the building–are 5″. Builder says they’ll handle a 7″ per hour rain on this roof. True? Big enough to keep water from the area described in #2?
4. The downspouts drain the roof OVER sidewalks people need to walk on to get into the building. Besides the water, won’t we end up with ice building up here in the winter? Options?
We’d appreciate any comments about these details, and if you have better ideas, or if something is typically done a different way, would love to hear about it.
Thanks.
Thon
Replies
Wow, where to start, is the general contractor fully paid at this point or are you still working thru a punch list? Most issues look like design/ spec. problems unless the specs were vague or not followed.
1. Doors better thresholds and sweeps are available, as well as astragal trim to better seal between the doors. There is actually a trim kit that drops a seal out of the bottom of the door when it closes, but some door modifications would be required. I would assume that the sweep and sill installed were spec'ed by the architect and ordered directly from his specs.
2. Sidewalk elevations are very difficult when entrances need to meet barrier free codes. Slope and threshold heights are limited and ponding as pictured is difficult to avoid without much forethought or previous experience. In this situation I would look to see if sub-surface drainage could be accomplished with existing slopes to drain to storm sewer or daylight.
3. Gutters and downspouts without knowing how many lineal feet of gutter per downspout, I would assume 40' of roof drainage per downspout to be borderline, and approaching overloaded.
4. I would review plans and specs to determine who actually made the decision to drain the roof across the sidewalk and DEMAND that they fix this obvious problem.
How about some overall pictures to get a feel for the grades and elevations involved.
The contractor is waiting on his final payment and has gone through his punch list. He feels like he's done--and maybe he is. <g><Slope and threshold heights are limited and ponding as pictured is difficult to avoid without much forethought or previous experience. In this situation I would look to see if sub-surface drainage could be accomplished with existing slopes to drain...>Not to be TOO glib but I would have presumed that 'forethought' was part of the deal when you hire an architect. I would have guessed this is a problem they deal with EVERY time they design a building with a sidewalk. This architect has done a few of these community center buildings. We're in central Kansas and this building is on one FLAT lot. No storm sewers in town.Thanks for your comments!Thon
<Not to be TOO glib but I would have presumed that 'forethought' was part of the deal when you hire an architect. I would have guessed this is a problem they deal with EVERY time they design a building with a sidewalk. This architect has done a few of these community center buildings.>
I agree, but what do the plans and specs say.....
Present it like you relied on the architects technical expertise, ask him for a good solution.
I do design review and this situation occurs all too often. It is easy to catch if you have dealt with it in the past, but hard to fix after the fact. You definitely need to fix the drainage across the sidewalk from downspouts. How much fall do you have from finish floor to the sidewalk around the building?
but I would have presumed that 'forethought' was part of the deal when you hire an architect.
It's supposed to be.
But, that forethought might also have wound up "on the cutting room floor," too.
I would have guessed this is a problem they deal with EVERY time they design a building with a sidewalk.
Depends, too on whether a civil engineer was required for the project. The CE's tend to concentrate on the paving draining to whatever the local requirements are, which tends to be fussing in increments of 0.025' or so--that 0.25" o n the sidewalk can get missed.
In a perfect world, the CE would set the lowest pavement elevation, project that back to be a top-of-curb height, which could then be extended to give the elevation of the building slab (or at least the entry thresholds).
Then, too, City A will require 3' of grass space, while City B wants 5', and City C mandates 6'--if you don't do a lot of work in City C, that difference can jump up and bite a person (BTDT).
This architect has done a few of these community center buildings.
Which may be part of the problem, too. You can get a "feel" for some of these things, and of the "who" who will be building them. It can be easy to "slough off" things the customer is not paying for (or griped about back charges & CO's on previous projects). The muni comes in and says, hey we want another of those buildings you do--what can you give us for 95¢ on the $1? (Which then is occasionally compounded by fore knowledge that they may only have 80¢ on that 95¢--the muni "wanted" $1.15/$1, but will 'settle' for around 85-88¢/$1 . . . )Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You should get their catalogue. Lots of door sweep options.
http://www.pemko.com/
The door sweep doesn't look too bad. It's standard hardware and not really the builder's "fault", though it looks like it could be adjusted for a tighter fit.
I can't answer the downspout question. The architect would have access to tables which specify downspout sizing and spacing. You certainly could tell the architect they look too small and would he please show you the tables and calculations.
The two sidewalk and concrete issues are problems, and in my opinion, poorly done. To find out who dropped the ball you'd need to look at the set of plans and specifications. Did the architect specify elevations for the foundation and the sidewalk and the contractor fail to follow what was specified? Or did the architect not specify and left it to the contractor to set the building and site elevations?
It is clearly wrong and both the architect and builder should be faulted for not stopping construction as soon as it became clear there would be a problem, not just ignorantly or arrogantly go ahead and finish it like that. But I don't know what the terms of the contracts were. If, for example, it was not in the architect's contract to provide construction supervision, then it is hard to be disappointed if he did not intervene once he turned over the plans.
The architect may have been working on a tight fee, with site work not covered. He should not have to tell a contractor that the elevation of the sidewalk must be lower than the floor height. He has a right to assume that a contractor is competent.
Regardless of how much or how little detail the architect specified about the site elevations, no competent contractor should have built it that way. There is only one exception. If the contractor notified the owner that the plans called for incorrect elevation and the owner directed the builder to do it anyway, the contractor is not at fault. If the contractor failed to question the design, or the design was unclear and it was the contractor's decision to choose those elevations, then the contractor acted unprofessionally.
I have to question the owner (the town) in all of this. It appears that they did not properly supervise the project. If the elevations were not specified on the construction documents the owner should have ensured that he settled the issue with the contractor before construction. It is poor oversight to just turn the contractor loose without ensuring that all is progressing well. As soon as the foundation was staked out the owner should have stopped the contractor and questioned how the rainwater and sidewalks would be handled with the building so low, not just cover their eyes and hope for the best.
Sorry for the rambling reply. In any case the sidewalk and drainage cannot stay as is, and must be corrected.
Wayne, what is wrong with the sidewalk elevation? It appears that it is several inches lower than the grade in the picture that showed the downspout emptying.
I had the impression that they haven't filled the grade in yet to it's final level.
blue
From the splashblock pictures it appears that the siding is less than in inch from the ground, and that the sidewalk is two to three inches above the ground. That means that if the fill between the sidewalk and the building is level the siding would be buried, and if it is sloped it will direct water to the siding.
Laying aside the question of why neither the architect, contractor, or owner failed to see or act on the situation, from a building point of view the building was just plain built too low. The surface of the slab should have been a foot above finished grade. Dirt should never be placed within a fraction of an inch of siding.
Downspouts should not drain across sidewalks. When rain is underway it makes the sidewalk impassable, and snow melting off the roof on a cold sunny day will freeze to glare ice when it crosses the sidewalk. The point of hiring professionals (architect and contractor) and having competent design review and construction oversight on behalf of the owner is so that there are no problems built into the building. Handling rainwater, routing visitors, landscaping, maintenance costs -- all of these and many more are supposed to be addressed before completion. No problem should be "discovered" after the fact.
it appears that the siding is less than in inch from the ground
It does, but all it really shows is the clearance from dirt to the bottom of the metal building panels.
This is a pre-engineered metal building, so that's not really "siding" per se. Those panels are screwed to the purlins between the frames, and down to either a stepped metal section overlapping the slab, or, and angle set into a "step" in the foundation. So, the bottom of those panels ought to be 1 1/2" lower than the slab elevation. There's a sealing piece, and a manufacturer-specified weatherproofing.
Since the sidewalk probably loops around much of the building, this makes a "trap" space between the building slab and the sidewalk. The sidewalk is generally going to be the same height as the top-of-curb. This can make close-up photography deceptive.
Does not mean the sidewalks might have been sloped better, or some other arrangement made for the downleaders (tough drain with a grating, for instance). Only that such things require more thought, and more work, and therefore, more dollars--which the muni angency may not have had, or wanted to spend elsewhere, etc.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You are one of the few people on this site who spell correctly and properly use punctuation, capitalization, and italicizing. It makes reading and comprehending what you say so effortless! I wish everyone would be so considerate.
You are right that pictures can be deceiving. In this case the building should have been built a good foot higher. The door and "siding" are much too close to the ground, leading to all the problems noted -- the risk of water flow under the door, splashing mud on the siding, inability to grade soil away from the building, and so forth. It's a shame that none of the people involved were on the ball on this job.
You are one of the few people on this site who spell correctly and properly use punctuation, capitalization, and italicizing. It makes reading and comprehending what you say so effortless! I wish everyone would be so considerate.
Oh stop it, I'm blushing . . .
Besides, it's not me, it's all the result of caring parents and competent teachers and gazillions of hours of reading (and a certain amount of would-be author . . .)
You are right that pictures can be deceiving. In this case the building should have been built a good foot higher.
Yeah, but, I'll bet that the site will not allow that. Since it is a municipal-use building, it has to be barrier-free. That means the entry thresholds can only be 1/4" taller than the start of the 1:20/1:24 slope out to the entry sidewalk, which will then be exactly 6" above the highest paving elevation (or you get oddly-dimensioned ramps, which are always a problem, both in price and execution--or both).
Since this is very likely a "bare bones" budget building, the entry door probably is whatever the minimum spacing is (3' - 6') from the parking area, which generally has to have either 5' or 6' wide sidewalk--at least, at the front door.
That's the "rub" of it, I'll bet that the "problem" sidewalks are the emergency/back exits. These are less regulated (or less observed by regulators). That, however, does not necessarily mean that they will be used as secondary exits by the periodic users of the facility.
It's an insidious (<g>) thing while "doing" PEMB, you talk to the client/customer, and come up with which frame dimension to use. That sets the slab dimensions. You then start projecting sidewalk dimensions off of that to set back-of-curb (since the CEs are itching to get going, as they want this minimal-profit job out the door as fast as you do). You've been to a County Dance, or the Legion Fundraiser, or the like, and you know al lthe doors get propped open. So, you put some canopies over the "back" exits to help cover the (propped open in use) doors. You "point" the exit sidewalks accordingly, and all is dory-hunky.
Then the bids come in, and the client doesn't have the budget for what it will cost, so things get deleted. So, the canopies go--but, maybe, with three other projects blowing & going, the CAD drafter misses that the sidewalks ought not "go" the way they do with no canopies . . . (or the redmarks on the plans don't show the "follow through"). These things happen.
Then again, sometimes, low winning bidder is not quite so good, and their execution of the project does not quite reach the heights it ought to (or might have, until the door spec changed, or "gee, can we get another 5% out of the budget?").
I'm still thinking that LWB is mostly to blame for how the photos turned out (and the impressions of OP). Does not mean the designer of record is blameless, either--just that both of them were probably pushed to the very margins of the performance envelope, where more is needed, not less.
That's life. 'Sposed to be the "line" where "if it were easy, e'erybody'd do it" . . . <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
im not normally a contributer--forgive my intrusion (dont even know what a tippi is). i am, though, a commercial design/build gc with extensive pemb experience. what irks me is the slamming that many of you have done on the gc/designer of this building with no real information. schoolyard crap. what we do know is that the community got a small building (4000sf= no economy of scale) for $37/sf--the gc and designer should be congratulated for pulling that off. and we should be more supportive of each other instead of feeding the frenzied know it alls what they need to litigate ridiculous concerns that most often are the result of too little budget. i tire of having my guys work literally 90 hour weeks only to get kicked in the teeth by an ungrateful client. this business once was fun. "who is john galt?" " no good deed goes unpunished"
here here!
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know" Ralph Waldo Emerson
forgive my intrusion (dont even know what a tippi is)
You stand forgiven of confusing me with a Fest host <g>.
I'm betting you meant to address this to ALL, rather than me, specifically, as I've been the one asking for some mercy & understanding of muni projects using PEMB.
(In the "To" window in a reply, there's a downarrow which opened a pop-down list with several screen names, and ALL, as an option.)
Since this is your first post, let me add a belated "Welcome to BreakTime."Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
thanks for the reply instruction. you are right, i meant to address all and i acknowledge that your notes seem to align with my sentiment. thanks.
that your notes seem to align with my sentiment. thanks
No sweat (or, "de nada" as is said around here <g>).
Been through the Midwest (& similar) wringer for details, especially those that are not-quite covered by stock details--more than enough "sweat" there <g> . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
where is john galt?
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Bullfeathers...no matter what the budget is, a door that lets daylight through is an admission that you don't give a flying fig about your work.
that is a pretty absolute statement from someone who has seen only a poor picture and read a brief description. you are either one awesome metal door installer or you have never install a metal door. no doubt this building could suffer from some workmanship issues; my point is only that we as an industry are much too quick to impune each other without the benefit of knowing all the conditions. it seems that opinions from "experts" who did not build the building carry more weight than the builder's explanations. and the client tells his side to elicit an easy lambaste from a "craftsman" eager to display his antlers. i think we can support each other without lowering our standards--there are tactful ways to suggest a better solution to a concern--many of the postings are tactful, many are not. our industry is much maligned--clients think we get rich on every project (any of you getting rich out there?), that we are opportunists looking to take advantage of any opportunity that comes our way. do your part to help build credibility, rather than snap to negative judgment when you dont have adequate information.
Hey, I didn't even look at the photos.....30 years in the trades, the last ten managing multimillion dollar hospitality renovations, I've seen enough supposed professionals on both the client, design, and trades side to fill a book....I stand by my statement; a builder who leaves a project with a door lacking proper weatherstripping is only interested in getting his paycheck...maybe this seems harsh & unsupportive of my fellow tradespeople, but I get pretty tired of having to cajole "professionals" into doing a minimally acceptable job
To vancon,
You have stated the people taking written shots at the GC are going off in effect half cocked. I respectfully disagree with you as it pertains to the reply I posted on this thread.
I don't have very many things I can brag about achieving in life, but one thing "for sure" is I am truly one H*ll of a metal door installer. I only know three men better at is than myself and they are truly the cats meow.
No way on God's Green Earth should you be seeing daylight through an exterior door opening. UNACCEPTABLE !! This situation is not just "a little short on being right" it is just flat out WRONG!!! It is BAD craftsmanship, not to spec, not to trade or industry standard and INEXCUSABLE!!!
I respectfully suggest you pick your battles more carefully. No builder I've known in the last 28 years would pick a fight over a nasty install job like the door in the picture. They would have quickly and easily fixed it, and moved on.
Vancon, I'm truly sorry about getting on a high horse and shouting but I fess up you got my goat on the doors comment.
Belly yourself up to the bar and have a cold one of whatever your drinking on me.
A feeling much better after getting that off his chest,
Cork in Chicago
i agree that the door is nothing to fight about--my guys would get a sharp reprimand for installing a door that lets daylight in. quality is, afterall, our only defense against our would be detractors.perhaps my zeal for unity among professionals got lost in the impetus of the door installation in question--you are right, there are more appropriate battles to pick to make that point; for some reason, it seemed that this was a long thread slamming the builder when the whole picture didn't seem to merit the lynching he received. indeed, the only better way to build up our industry reputation than to stop degrading each other is to ensure that we do good work ourselves and demand it of our subordinates.regarding the door--the picture doesnt jibe with the description. did i miss a set of pics other than those in the original post? the double door is shown from the outside with a gap between leaves that seems reasonable assuming there is a t-astragal on the inside. from what i read, the light is coming in from the bottom, probably at the corners which is easily fixed with weather stripping. did you note the careful scribing of the applied sweep where it meets the edge of the left door leaf? this was not done by a hack. also, regarding the downspout shown--the concrete splash block is a nice touch that i would consider to be thoughtful and craftsmanlike, assuming that the lack of leaders under the sidewalk is the result of no storm system or grade to daylight a pipe to. we simply cant make credible statements about lack of quality based on the information selectively given. but the pictures i saw do not lead me to jump to the conclusion that the builder/designer is a charlatan. the only damning information is that provided in the plaintiffs complaints and in many of the responses contained in this thread.my apologies for having offended you--and anyone who has read my comments. simply, lets do good work and try to assume the best of our colleagues. and if we make mistakes, lets help each other with suggestions garnered from our own experiences. many pros have taught me a lot by showing me a better way to remedy my mistakes, without dragging me through the mud. and now, in my current position in life, the stakes are much higher. too many people are trying to win the litigation lottery out there. you need a dog and a woman in each client interview just to add intuitive feedback to the backround and credit checks that seems to be necessary these days. and thats in small town ohio.whew. now i feel better, too. thanks for the beer.by the way, if you are curious: http://www.van-con.com
Hey, just a note...I looked at the pics and you are right, the coping on the sweep clearly shows someone cared what they were doing...
I still wonder about the astragal...looks like, from the rolled metal overlay on one of the door slab edges, it might be on the inside, which seems wrong to me...
Anyway, next time I'll try not to go off so half cocked....mea culpa!
>In any case the sidewalk and drainage cannot stay as is, and must be corrected.Interestingly, I lived in a city where this was the norm for all the row homes. I poured a new sidewalk and ran a pipe under the sidewalk and through the curb, though the city was hesitant to allow it be/c of the chances of it freezing, backing up, and cracking the s/w. Later they resurfaced the road and half covered the pipe exiting the curb, which caused water to freeze...When you bury a drain line, you need to get deep enough to get below the s/w and have slope, and that's not always easy on a flat lot. Just saw this kind of thing handled on TOH and it required 3 tanks, a pump or two, and $18k. That seemed like a lot, but what do I know...This thread could as easily have been called good, bad, or ? building by the contractor, be/c we don't know what the plans showed, and a contractor could easily question questionable things before building them. Contractors building from my prints have called and asked about stuff they wanted to clarify; don't see why this one wouldn't.
"When you bury a drain line, you need to get deep enough to get below the s/w and have slope, and that's not always easy on a flat lot. Just saw this kind of thing handled on TOH and it required 3 tanks, a pump or two, and $18k. That seemed like a lot, but what do I know..."In that case they already had a swamp in the back yard. It was not that they wanted to bury the pipe, but that wanted to get rid of the water that drained there already.
Yeah, I understood that, but the burying was necessary to accomplish the goal. In my ex-city, the only way to get water from the house to the gutter was under the s/w...burying it. In this case, the pictures he showed were so tightly cropped that we don't have a sense of the surroundings, but the only was it seems to get water beyond the s/w is under it, and we don't know if that is possible. OK, could use a grate over a trough, but they are even likelier to ice than a pipe under slab and present their own hazard.
1. ALL the exterior doors in the building have good sized 'holes' somewhere around the bottom, where the weatherstrip doesn't touch/seal ... Professes to not know of a good solution.
That may explain why that contractor was the low bidder.
2. The sidewalk elevation appears as though it will trap any rain water and or water coming off the roof, between the building and the sidewalk. Is this not a concern?
Well, that depends. What do the details on the plans show? If the plans show that the sidewalks should be sloped, then, it's down to the builder to fix it. If the drawings don't show a slope, then it's built to spec.
3. The gutters look very large--too me-- but the downspouts--2 on each side of the building--are 5". Builder says they'll handle a 7" per hour rain on this roof. True? Big enough to keep water from the area described in #2?
Those are "stock" PEMB (Pre-Engineered Metal Building) sized gutters--they are just about always that size. The down-leaders look to be about "stock" as well. I'll bet that they are, in fact, 4 x 5. The capacity of those downleaders is a function of their quantity per length of gutter. Will the sidewalk "trap" water? Might, might not. Put a hose on the roof and you can check.
4. The downspouts drain the roof OVER sidewalks people need to walk on to get into the building. Besides the water, won't we end up with ice building up here in the winter? Options?
That would appear to be a detailing or budget "thing." They make "boots" that will allow the downleaders to attach to pvc drains which can be run under sidewalks. There's additional expense there, it has to be factored into the site work, and 'somebody' has to plumb it up (you need to reduce to 3" or 4" lines before cutting through curbs). That can be a budget item that was cut by the people with the purse strings. It's also a subtle detail for people used to "stock" PEMB detailing--a thing that can be missed.
There's no good cure for it now, other than a lot of expensive jackhammering already installed (and presumably paid-for) concrete. Keepign some deicer handy for winter may be easier for a muni building.
Overall, it looks about like too many municipal building projects; built on the cheap, quick, by lowest bidder. But, then again, I've done way tooo much PEMB detailing of one sort or another.
Drainage could be driven under the sidewalk instead of jackhammering it up, but if the site is indeed flat, I don't know where they'd go with it.
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Drainage could be driven under the sidewalk instead of jackhammering it up
Sure looked to be about 3' of "planting area" and either 3' or 4' of s/w, butted to a curb with paving in place. That's tough sledding for "driving" to my thinking.
I'm now thinking a person could saw-cut the s/w, then get the pipe in.
Of course, the much, much simpler answer would be to strip out the top soil entire, lay in some weed-control fabric, and overlay with decorative & polychromic gravel. In a perfect world, the area under the gravel would have been prepped like a dry well, but, it's rather late in the game for that sort of thinking.
I still like the swift "deal" I saw a landscape outfit use for a mall installation. They buried the same size pot as the programmed "landscape" item right into the planter. When the store changed "seasons," they just moved the drip irrigator out of the way, pulled the plant, plastic pot and all onto a falt-bed cart, and swung in the new item. Voilà, done.
If I had less of a midas touch on plants (well, they're briefly golden, just before going brown <g>), I'd be rotating seasonals & specimens for my own landscaping. Instead, the greenery is vacant-lot shabby-chic <g>.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Dirt is touching the steel siding + time = rust
Concrete is touching the siding + time = rust
Depending on construction of the walls if the plan called for just studs no sheathing just the wood studs the sill comes into contact with the steel siding you will get corrosions.
Now elevation what do you get for rain there do you ever got 7” 10” inches down pour from time to time. Is the elevation high enough to keep the water from running in the front door. and up behind the siding and into the insulation.
Next is the door far enough way to give the people that are leaving the place enough room to look both way so they don’t get run over by the kids on skate boards on the side walks.
Edited 8/9/2006 12:57 pm ET by fredsmart
you sound like one of the town busybodies that has nothing going on his life except be a terror to people that actually get things done....nothing is perfect you know....why didn't you look over the plans before building started until waiting till after. Anyone can correct mistakes after the fact. If your town is so small and everyone is so nice...why don't you do the work ...downspouts and weatherstripping aren't exactly big buck items....neither is crushed rock. I hate people like you.
lighten upsomeone being worried about senior citizens using walkers and slipping on ice forming from a downspout that's pouring water across a sidewalk isn't being a busybodyit was a missed detail . . . you think the client is going to catch things like this before it's built?
How do you really feel?!
Forrest
whoa, remind me not to huddle around your mass
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
what crawled up your azs and died today?
I thought I was cranky
what crawled up your azs and died today?
I thought I was cranky
seemed like you were being the usual you....
carry on...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I gotta be me
and you do it so well...
KUDOS...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
lol...i was looking for a round hole in the door somewhere...by 'hole' are you referring to the gap between the doors? you're saying that there is open space between the doors for basically anything to blow in?
if so, one door should have an astragal attached so when it closes, the astragal overlaps the other door covering the hole...
Hey there tab 1.
Don't sweat cranky people.
I would assume there has to be some type of a building code in your area and those doors certainly are not to code or to industry or trade standards. Any time you see daylight like you're seeing in the pics it means to door assembly has failed in one of it's design functions which is to be a weather barrier. Doors and windows are designed to keep the outside weather OUT and the heated or cooled air in.
Door and window assemblies are also supposed to keep vermin and insects out of the building - you'rs don't.
Give your builder one and only one chance to fix these door openings properly and then (with pictures of all faulty doors) hire out someone to do it right. Then tell the builder to go and stick it some place where the sun don't shine - which by the way wouldn't have been your building if you wouldn't't have gotten somebody else to fix things up with the doors - cause the builder left the openings exposed to the elements.
Ask this builder "don't you have any pride, or shame?"
Sorry if this comes off kind of strong - but sometimes you just got to "yank" some people up short and let them know this lack of basic building practices just is not going to be acceptable.
Have a good one,
Cork in Chicago
Edited 8/9/2006 9:39 pm ET by Cork in Chicago
Was the Architect from Junction City?
did this job require a government ah mm stuperviser of some kind?
If it project did where was the person and what were s/he doing?
To get a lot government money for pojects the government has a lot of strings tied to the money. one of them would be a stupervisers to watch the contractors do the job the right way.
Thanks for all the ideas. I'll attempt to check the plans vs what's there, and get back to you next week.Thon(Not from Junction, no stuperviser per se. We were 'assisted' in getting a federal grant, and those people were very careful about watching the money spent, but as far as I know, didn't do much at the site.)
It appears to me that there may be both spec problems and craft problems. In all these cases, the builder could have prevented the problems with objections and alternate submissions to problems. If they were spec problems, a good and experienced builder should be able to catch the problems as they are implemented.
I would say it is as much of a builders problem as that of design. If he is taking care of business, has good experience and wants to produce a good end product...he would not have allowed the issues to occur without documentation that he objected but was building to specs.
Heaven and helel are in the details...a good builder will pay attention to detail....csome of which make a big diffenence but are not particularly the desingeers responsibility.
>> Our very small town just spent about $150,000 (Federal grant) to build a community center. The building is 50 x 80, on a slab, and is quite nice inside. <<
That's $37.50 a sq ft. unless you left out a zero some where... For $37.50 a sq ft you can't get much more than a shed, although admittedly it does sound like a few things on your shed might need to be tweaked, but possibly under the category of $change order$ :-)
BTW - does this shed have any plumbing, or HVAC in it?
Like someone else said - in public buildings that have to adhere to ADA, etc requirements (most all do) if the sidewalk a2' out from the building the slope going away from the door to the sidewalk can be around 1 or 2 inches depending on the layout (direction, etc) of the sidewalk. That's like nothing... So, basically you are looking at design issues, and yes, there is going to be drainage problems. A way to get around some of that would have been to had stem walls (maybe 8 or 16") with the metal building built on top of those.
Also ada compliant thresholds can only have a very minimum profile - I I forget if it is a 1/4 or 1/2"? This tends to problematic when it comes to threshold/sweep etc. The fact that the finished floor has to be very close to the same level on both sides of the threshold sux for weatherproofing too. Forget about having a rug inside the door - just a thin mat.
Edited for a typo
Edited 8/18/2006 9:08 pm ET by Matt