What does it take to aquire and retain good sharp employees?
I’m tired of my truck broke, I’m stuck in traffic, my dog got loose………………..
People that acknowledge what you tell them then do something entirely different.
People that just can’t seem to grasp a few simple rules.
Are there people that………..
can figure something out for themselves once in a while?
can really wow you with what they did with out any input from management?
can fill out thier time cards daily and not once a week?
Replies
LOL.... I don't know what to say Eric. I think I've got a pretty good crew....but everything in your post still happens from time to time with them. Some days I'm blown away be what they do and how they do it.... other days I want to fire the whole clan and start over. Nature of the beast I suppose.
Like work boots.... keep trying new ones until you find some you like.... and then take care of them or find out where to buy ten more identical pair.
Like work boots.... keep trying new ones until you find some you like.... and then take care of them or find out where to buy ten more identical pair.
Perfect.
"Never pick a fight with an old man. If he can't beat you he will just kill you." Steinbeck
Ha ha, ha ha ha!
That's a good one Eric.
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
so
When ARE you moving to China?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Money.
not sure it'll work all the time ... but in most cases it'll help.
I've talked to more than one GC who said they couldn't find "good help" ... and seeing as how I'm not married to self employment I always push farther.
and so far only one guy who I know I could never work for or with for any amount of time was open to paying anything close to a decent offer.
Most GC's want a $30/hr employee for $12.50. (around here most carps top out at $20 or so hr)
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Money.
That does seam to be the thing that keeps any of us coming back!
Guy I work with used to work for another contractor, decent guy, does some pretty nice work and is decent enough to his workers(the GC).
This GC is trying to hire my co-worker back, also some other guys that have left him for greener pasture.
The GC is offering between $20-$25 an hour............as a sub!
I tell Dave(my co-worker) that the GC's problem is that he's not offering enough money. Dave keeps saying that there aren't any good guys out there because our economy is good.
I tell Dave that I don't care how good our economy is if your offering better money you'll get workers that know their shid. There is always a disgruntled worker out there looking to move on.
I tell Dave that at $20-$25 he ain't offering enough yet. Dave is probably making $18 with quite a few bennies. I ask him why he don't go back and his answer is, " with all these benefits I cant quit and go work for $20-$25!"
MY point, the guy ain't offering enough money to attract the better workers in this area.
Doug
doug... i don't know how to find them but ....<<<<<Dave is probably making $18 with quite a few bennies. I ask him why he don't go back and his answer is, " with all these benefits I cant quit and go work for $20-$25!">>>>that's the best way to keep them... it is impossible to pay enough that someone else won't match it or beat itbut when you start layering the benefits................Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike I couldn't agree with you more. This is the reason I didn't go back into business. Hard to walk when you make a reasonable amount of money combined with a good benifit package. If you have a good employee, why not give him medical, IRA, vacations etc. It is a lot cheaper in the long run to keep an employee, than continually trying to hire and train new ones!
It constantly amazes me how many contractors don't get that..any bosses for that matter...and they all came from the other side of the coin and have forgotten what it is like to have a sh!ty job....
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
"It constantly amazes me how many contractors don't get that..any bosses for that matter...and they all came from the other side of the coin and have forgotten what it is like to have a sh!ty job..."I think that might have a lot to do with it...a lot of the same people leaving a crumby job making $12.00 hr., end up paying the same...or, if they get "enlighented", they pay $13.50, thinking that's great, why would anyone leave, that's more then I ever made.."who knows?J
but when you start layering the benefits................
Mike, right on. We get progressive vacations, 7 paid holidays, simple IRA, no micro-managing, a great guy to work for(well 98% of the time) great jobs, four day work weeks...........I don't know of another company around here that gets what we do.
We don't have much turn over in employees. Shop guys have been there 14, 8 and 4 years respectively. Field guys, me being one of them, I've been there a total of 6 years(two stints) and Dave has 3 years plus we just hired another trim guy. Throw in the painter that has 2 years(how the hell you keep a painter around for more then 6 months is a mystery to me) and the draftsman/designer that has been there 16-17 years.
I think my boss understands the key to keeping employees, and the benefit of it as well.
Doug
That's pretty similar to the company I work for. It's all about the benefits, four-day work weeks being one of them.
too paraphrase Reverend Gunner:if you want someone to eat your sh!t sammich your have to garnish it with some green...A good carp can go broke working at Micky D's...
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
A couple weeks ago I started a thread about my expectations for one of my guys. Turned out I was pushing him into a position he didnt want to be in. As soon as I came to terms with that everything was ok again. I still have all of the responsibility but maybe it just wasnt time.
If you are talking more general terms, I try to create an atmosphere where they are lucky to be working for my company. Pretty much my standard punishment is "sitting" them for a week. Usually the threat alone seems to perk up the spirits.
In 11 years in the trades and 8 in a partnership or on my own Ive only been wowed by 2 guys. You just knew right away they were smart and had a good work ethic. Everyone else was either solid, decent or just plain bad. Just plain bad never lasted a whole week. Shortest ever was a guy with "5 yrs exp.". Showed up on the job with all new bags and tools, couldnt figure out how to plug the lead hose into the compressor and was in the hospital by lunch with a nail thru 2 of his fingers!
Never got a solid worker out of the newspaper, only losers. Maybe try craigslist.
Matt
Please describe how you get them thinking they are lucky to be working for you?
First off I treat them well. I accept mistakes and I dont berate them in front of anyone. I have genuine compassion for their well being. I never complain about a worker to another worker
Second, I pay them well for their skillset. They know this and they also know that because of this I expect more than they are able to give at this point. Just show me a willingness to learn and the ability to retain that info coupled with a good attitude and were good.
I pay half of their medical and all of AFLAC.
I run as much of a transparent company as possible and let them in on decisions.
I buy lunches regularly. With little bonuses (not money) if we beat our goals on each project.
Continuously talk about the future, where we plan to be and how we will get there.
I pay them. On time. Every week.
Even if the company doesnt make what it should, and they know this with the numbers talked about before the job, they know they will have a check every Wednesday no matter what.
I keep them busy. They know they can get 40 hrs per week. That leads to consistent pay. Which makes managing money a lil bit easier. And having money makes everyone happier.
But most importantly, they know that we are trying to build a company as a team and if they dont represent the company the right way they will get "sat down" wich means I just took away the most important thing in their lives, their ability to make money.
Are you now saying you have your employee troubles under control? Didnt you have a post here not too long ago about one guy who wasnt all you thought hed be?
Just wondering a lot of times we hear about problems but never really find out what people ended up doing in the end.
Where I work now is ok from an employee standpoint but probably not quite like you describe for your company. He does look to us a lot for which direction to head in with certain jobs, mostly because we are there all the time. It is benifical to use our imput and your employess probably feel the same.
I dont know if I was running a company if I would give my employees that much imput and try to make them feel so "special" because honestly most of the ones I see get such treatment really dont deserve it. Do I deserve to be treated "special"? probaly not because I get tired, can have poor attitude with my co-workers (not about my work), and complain/argue too much. But thats my honest opnion of myself and my real big flaws. Never been fired, hardly ever reprimanded from any employeer, and do seem to get special treatment too often. But not sure If I would want me or not. Ive been working on that part a lot latley.View Image
I did get that situation under control. He does not want to be a lead man so I will not force him to be one. The goofing off has subsided once we had a chat over breakfast one rainy morning and I looked to them to tell me how we could separate ourselves from Joe-blow-out-the-back-of-the-pickup. Once it became them giving ideas and not me telling them how to behave I think it started to sink in that professionalism is the root of the tree we are growing.
And on a personal note those 2 weeks I was taking and anti depressant to get rid of a whole body rash that I have had for bout 6 months. Nothing worked so finally doc prescribed a pill that would relieve stress. Turns out the dam thing cured the rash but made me more depressed than I'd ever been.
Normally Im a happy person, but on these pills I could not for the life of me get into a good mood so I believe part of the employee problem situation was me being miserable. Anti depressants made me depressed, go figure.
Life is again good.
Thanks for the reply. Glad it worked out for you guys.
I was thinking lately that maybe I would rather lead than to succumb to being led all the time, hence why I get in a bad mood, kind of the opposite of your guy. I don't know, I like many always think of having my own company and that eats at me, but I have plenty of excuses to compensate and use them when honestly I don't have the balls.
What I'm getting at is what I see in good employees is someone who is on the verge of going on their own, but doesn't want the headaches, I think that's what makes me valuable to my employers. I behave and work like I have a personal interest in what's going on. I think its commendable that you are trying to get that out of your guys.
I nitpick myself constantly and it spills out onto the other guys often, I hate to see anything that isn't done as good as it could be. All this and I really am only second or third (if you count the guy who signs the checks) in line around here. When the boss is around my "foreman" is top dog with all the ideas(don't see him more than 1/2 hr a day anyway), soon as he goes me and my "foreman" are more than equals he comes to me for all opinions, he has told me a few times if I left he would leave too. I'm not saying he shouldn't be foreman at all just that things like this can get to a guy.
I think you will get what you want out of your guys with your system, most don't put as much thought into it as you do, but you still need guys like me who care first and would probably do the same even without all the effort you are putting into it. You can't make someone into something there not and I'm sure you figured that out. I was intrigued in your other post about the way you are trying to run your company and I belive we would probably get along good, although I have seen when bosses let the wrong guys have too much input things can get out of hand quickly. I wish you the best of luck and appreciate your time.
View Image
Edited 7/3/2008 11:03 pm ET by danno7x
The main difference between guys who find good help and guys who can't (to me ) seems to be whether they treat their employees as assets or liabilities.Even a dumb carpenter likes to be appreciated...when a guy feels like he is being used to line someone else's pockets and could be replaced without a second thought and that he is only as good as the last mistake he made...well it is hard to give your all for someone who uses you cheap toilet paper...I never developed a taste for the sh!t sammich....
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion" -Neil deGrasse Tyson
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.
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
funny thing about that shlt sammich,
the more bread ya got the less shlt ya gotta eat.
I have one employee and I guess I technically 'stole' him from my former company. He was a low level punch carpenter that didn't really fit their long-term mold, but he has much more opportunity to learn and grow working side by side with me.
I didn't offer him much more money, but I did put him on salary, give him a monthly gas allowance, and give him the opportunity to be involved in company decisions, which is a big step up from where he was. He was mostly ignored by the former boss and never included in company meetings or policy, so he feels he has some ownership with his new situation.
Pay them well, challenge them, respect them, and don't expect them to be there forever. The best guys almost always go to work for themselves at some point.
Eric, are you talking about hourly W2 employees?
How often do you try out a new guy; daily, weekly, monthly?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
yes, they are called contractors.
no such person like that exists who answers to the name "employee"
it is kind of like finding a decent renter, if they had their shlt together they would buy a house, the rest of the turds rent, if you find a decent renter it will probably only be short term.
i am frequently amazed by what companies expect out of employees. how many would actually do what they expect employees to do? in particular was one young framing contractor, who is now out of business pursuing law enforcement i think, the guy was not even 25 and a contractor, complaining about his 40 something carps.
i don't get how he figures that any idiot with a pick up truck can't go and do what he did, and be the contractor. when it is that easy to just be the contractor yourself why spend more than a minute as an employee if you have anything going for you at all?
what do you offer
cell phones or allowance for using theirs?
gas allowance if they use their truck for company use? like picking up materials or hauling trash?
medical plan?
profit sharing?
matching IRA?
paid vacations?
allow them to work without micromanaging?
a work enviroment that allows them to think for themselves?
We're here, or at least I'm here. Been an owner/operator - just not strong in 'shmoozing' and wearing too many hats. Great at hands on, organization, running a crew, making sure everything needed is on site, etc, etc, etc.
Had a great job, guy seemed really professional up front. Trouble was he made some business decisions that seemed quite impractical to me and he is now 'on the rocks' and I am now gainfully unemployed - taking care of the 'honey do' list. Seems he thought he would become, overnight, the next premier builder of custom MacMansions in Greenwich, with nothing more than a 2 story addition to his credit. All the power in the world for dreaming big, but more grounding in reality is needed.
What do I need as an employee. A fair wage, respect, occasional recognition for the work I do, benefits are most welcome and a sense that I'm part of the solution. I truly love construction.
I'm young enough to handle the work, old enough to be mature and confident and knowledgeable, and do not want to start my own shop again.
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
I'm tooled up (trust me), trucked up (toolbox, rack), confident and capable.
(In most instances, I can set a new door in an old hole in 30minutes)
Yet, I can't find any decent GC's to work for here.
I have responded to many craigslist ads...sent my resume, the minute they find out that I am a gal, I never hear back from them.
Oh, the horror stories I could tell you!
Good luck on your search!
"Historic preservation is an essential part of a civil society; historic buildings form the core assets of many communities, and their restoration is key to neighborhood revitalization. Preservation is an essential part of any conservation-minded approach to human settlements. Historic buildings serve as anchors in time, preserving cultural richness and providing essential lessons for contemporary work." Kevin Pierce
Simular problem, when they find out how old I am, they don't want any part of me!,g.
I told a friend the other day I didn't plan on roofing past 70. Its just to hard on an old man.
Fishrite
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GenderMale
OccupationK-12 Student"Never pick a fight with an old man. If he can't beat you he will just kill you." Steinbeck
Soryy to jump in cat. But I was wondering the same thing too about Fishrite's gender.
Eric,
I've never tried this before, but I've thought about leaving a pile of scrap wood at a project site--and an envelope with the prospective employee's name on the front door.
The envelope contains the information to build a simple pair of sawhorses including a drawing with exact dimensions. And instructions to call your cell when he/she is done.
The pile of "scrap wood" you left contains everything the "carpenter" needs to build the saw horses.
Before the scheduled meeting call his cell phone and tell him to get started with out you, all the info is on the front door for him.
See what happens.
Why would you set up an employee to fail?
Frammer,
The employee is not set up to fail.
He/she has every thing they need to succeed.
Presumably a saw, a tape measure and, the wood you left them and the plans to build the saw horses.
The idea is to find out what more do they need.
You forgot one thing, directions. Unless you have given him directions, he or she will wait. The thing is, unless you are paying him supervisor's pay, don't expect initiative.
If a decent carpenter can't figure out how to build a pair of sawhorses in less than 30 minutes out of scrap then they probably aren't worth hiring. That's a great idea and a great test in competency. I would bet that you might get 1 out of 10 to actually follow through correctly. I think there should be much more formal training for all construction trades. On the job training is fine for a lot of reasons, but it's hard on the employers that aren't good teachers(like me), and can tend to teach the newbie lots of bad habits if they learn from the wrong person. I would love to see construction become a 'respectable' career path again. That would also include teaching business competency on the part of GC's. In the meantime, I'll just do the work myself and pay for the good subs.
That is not the issue. There have been no directions given. A phone call to the boss is the most you should expect in those circumstances.
You didn't read the comment completely. Look at the second paragraph:'I've never tried this before, but I've thought about leaving a pile of scrap wood at a project site--and an envelope with the prospective employee's name on the front door.The envelope contains the information to build a simple pair of sawhorses including a drawing with exact dimensions. And instructions to call your cell when he/she is done. The pile of "scrap wood" you left contains everything the "carpenter" needs to build the saw horses.Before the scheduled meeting call his cell phone and tell him to get started with out you, all the info is on the front door for him.See what happens.'Sorry. You wouldn't be hired. It is AMAZING how few people can follow simple directions. Nothing personal.
LOL, I wouldn't hire him either!
Well then you would be missing a great hire. Like I said, each to his own.
myself ... I'd just walk away.
didn't show up to play games ... showed up to talk and interview.
probably showed up in nicer than working clothes too ...
and definitely left the 10' box van loaded with tools at home and drove the Jeep.
so I came prepared for the job at hand ... a job interview ...
not to build some guy a set of free saw horses.
I might call the number and give a bid price to build them though.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
<I might call the number and give a bid price ......>for free? Haven't you learned anything?
Barry E-Remodeler
your not hired either, next
i'd have to agree with jeff.... and you know how i hate agreeing with jeff
i'd tell the prospective employer where he could put his pile of scraps and his "test'
now.... i think it's a good test.. but it's the wrong message
if the guy passes the interview and he looks like a good hire ...
tell him it'll be a conditional hire and tomorrow is the practical exam
he'll be hired at a minimum amount and he'll be guaranteed 4 hours show-up
newxt day.. he shows up and you give him the pile of scraps and the instructions
.... pass / fail
great job... max starting wage.... passable job... so-so starting wage
not-so good ? thanks for your trouble and you can keep the saw horses and the 4 hours pay
one of the secrets to getting and keeping good employees is treating them the way you'd like to be treatedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
dammit.
now I have to go and agree with Mike.
Hey Mikey ... did ya hear? Corey had his first official golf lesson last nite.
told Hub the kid was saying he wanted to learn that horrid game ...
so Hub emailed me info about "First Tee".
we went to the first First Tee yesterday.
looks to be a great organization aside form the golf stuff.
we were very impressed.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
watch out... Corey 'll be draggin dad along on the course and you'll be hooked !
you'll be way ahead of me.. i didn't start palying until i turned 50
Phalen already has better form ... and he's three Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
at the parents meeting the program director mentioned having some water damage repaired in their basement, a room they need finished so the kids can practice in bad weather.
I pulled him aside afterwards and we took a tour.
most of the work is an insurance job ... but now I'm on board to raise a drop ceiling so the kids can swing clubs and set the rest of the ceiling tiles.
didn't tell him yet ... but if Corey looks like he's gonna stick with it my donated work will be in exchange for a coupla tag-along lessons from someone!
One part I liked ... the older kids in the program run the club snack shop.
they make all the decisions ... from scheduling to product placement and pricing.
I told the director I was more impressed with the golf programs attention to all the other stuff than the actual teaching to play golf.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
i only had one job where they had a written test as part of the hiring process as a carpenter, i thought it was a good idea but i was not a fit for that company.
i am a firm believer in the pay being commensurate with ability, however i know there are those with great abilities whose production is sometimes not all that great. i need motivation and a sense of organization, hate to work hard at spinning my wheels because the boss/foreman is unorganized and we will have to re-do stuff as a result.
also i think that attitude and ability go hand in hand, if your a contractor who is facing a late penalty deadline i am your favorite employee, but once we reach the deadline i am not the guy kept on to the end to finish the job because of the same attitude. lots of times it seems i hear people say they aren't there to make friends, they are there to do a job, but when the job is winding down they keep their friends to the last.
most of the wage jobs as carpenters are not that good. how many of you would like your son/daughter to work for a contractor for wages? wouldn't most of you prefer that your son/daughter be the contractor?
I think I would agreee with you!
I wouldn't expect the prospective employee to show up unprepared or for no compensation. That sends the wrong message. No sneak attacks. That's just not fair. I'd show up to an interview with clean clothes and no tools, too if I wasn't informed otherwise.
I honestly don't think I'd have time to coordinate something like this, but it probably would be worth the time and money invested, and would show each persons personality and ability very clearly.
I would guess that half of the folks would just outright refuse to follow through, which would save me a couple hours and lots of headache down the road.
"I would guess that half of the folks would just outright refuse to follow through, which would save me a couple hours and lots of headache down the road"It's an idea but it's rife with problems. It's somewhat belittling too to someone that actually knows what they are doing. For instance....me. I already have my sawhorses in the truck and I don't waste anything. So, I'm not going to waste my time either. If I've showed up for an interview with you and find a piece of paper, I'm going to leave a piece of paper. Just because I'm seeking employment doesn't give you the right to "trick me". You could have been upfront so I would mentally be prepared. How do you know how I'm going to show up? Maybe I'm in my snakeskin cowboy boots and designer glasses? I've often asked framers to build a set of horses AFTER I've hired them. For me, it was a look into their ability to understand load principles. Quite often, I'd find guys that had good mechanical skills but didn't really understand how to design and engineer things strong and light. Their mentality was "bigger is the only way". The could never build a bridge because it would collapse under it's own weight. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
in my experience, building a set of sawhorses was part of a test for journeyman. it wasn't the only thing you had to be able to do, but a part.
i know for me i didn't design the sawhorses i always build, it was a copy of another design. i have come up with lots of good ideas, and really enjoy solving jobsite situations creatively, but if given the task of sawhorse building you wouldn't see any of my design capabilities, its memorized.
You didn't read my comment. I said that I wouldn't just have them show up without some preparation. I would let them know what I wanted them to do on the phone interview and tell them that I would pay for their time. My point is validated by your response that at least half of them would refuse to follow through with a simple request because they think they're to good for it. I'd be looking for a team player and someone who is able to follow directions and plans. It's really just that simple. Ego is a huge production killer.
Alpha males, alpha females are the worst employee to have, They think they know everything and will tell you they know everything. will not ask for help and will not listen if you tell them. They are great workers if they are in their zone, but always the loud mouth on the job. They make great boss if they not what they are doing but cant work for anybody. Oh the stories I could tell you of those we have
another look behind the curtain ....
<<<<Alpha males, alpha females are the worst employee to have, They think they know everything and will tell you they know everything. will not ask for help and will not listen if you tell them. They are great workers if they are in their zone, but always the loud mouth on the job. They make great boss if they not what they are doing but cant work for anybody. Oh the stories I could tell you of those we have>>>>
you really oughta come to peachfestMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"I'd be looking for a team player and someone who is able to follow directions and plans."Sorry I did miss the part where you set the expectations for the interview and offered to pay. I would not accept your test. I have a hard time with tests. I know how to build a set of sawhorses but unless I can do an in depth interview with you, I wouldn't understand your goals and criteria and test evaluation methods and therefore wouldn't want to waste my time. I'd rather invest that time in someone else's company.I failed my "sawhorse" test in carpenter school. I had a pile of "scrap" to choose from and the written instructions. I had two or three main beam chunks of wood to choose from. One was straight, true and ugly, covered with concrete residue. It obviously was left over from some formwork duties. The others were new, clean and twisted. I chose the ugly, straight and true chunk. The instructor came in to give me my last minute checkup and start my time clock. He saw my choice and swapped it with the defective piece. I was stupid and let him change my mind. After accurately laying everything out and precisely cutting it with handsaws, chisels and planes, the end result was a perfectly dimensioned sawhorse that wobbled like a guy with a pegleg. I'm still scarred from that experience. I didn't get to go to the regional and national contests LOL but if you want a good story about how many of us were entered into the sawhorse building phase, I'll tell you. It offers a different glimpse into the reason why testing new employees is sometime misleading. I've always explained to my new employees that I wanted them to just be calm and not try to impress me the first few weeks. I always explained that often, in new circumstances, every one of us tends to react un-naturally and it's not fair to judge each other on one day, one hour, or even one week. The idea of judging a man on a set of sawhorses is flawed because you end up making a judgment on too narrow of a basis. A guy that was a good tester with no soul could possibly have a good showing and you'd choose him. Another guy might know everything you need him to know, be a great team player but might choke under pressure. The idea of that test is fun, but there's too many flaws and variable in the plan. It's not the best idea for vetting a proposed addition to the crew. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Maybe not the best test, I agree, but I have tried lots of other conventional approaches that don't work either. I have plenty of sawhorses(I actually prefer the fold up steel kind). The point is to judge a persons personality and ability to follow directions, not end up with ten pairs of perfect horses.
"The point is to judge a persons personality and ability to follow directions"I think there are better tests to vet those talents. I don't see any shortcut from a lengthy interview process. Typically, I spend a minimum of one hour on the phone and in person before I hire anyone. Sometimes, that time factor might be four or five times that amount. I know I spent at least five hours total on my latest addition to the team, a new Project Manager. Carpenters typically can be vetted in a 15-30 minute conversation. When I interview them by phone, I take notes. An interesting candidate might end up with a full page of notes and 30-45 minute conversation. If I'm having difficulty conversing, the notes will be very brief and the conversation might last only 5-10 minutes.Guess which guy will get a face to face appointment for round two? Round two is the time I verify all the information. Sometimes I have the notes in front of me, other times I don't. If the information seems to change, it sends up a red flag. When I was out in the field, round two would be an onsite meeting. These were easy and we could walk around and I'd ask specific questions. I'd get to look at the typical tooling that the candidate brings because I'd ask that they bring them to show me. I'd explain that the compensation package was based on both the abilities and tooling of the carpenter. Basically, I'm saying that there isn't a shortcut to all of this. I would never submit to a sawhorse test and the employer would void his chance at landing me. I would be a great employee as long as you treated me like the professional I am. You don't need to tell me how to follow directions: I already know how to do that. You may not like my personality but you wouldn't know that by looking at my sawhorses. Like I said...it's a romantic idea for a test and one that I've also given thought too....but it's kind of an old fashioned idea. I'd rather ask a guy to build me a 36" queen ann return...
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
How's the employer supposed to know that you can follow directions? Because you told them??I had a months long informal interview process with my only employee, and worked with him for a short time at the company that I was with before I went out on my own. I didn't have to do any 'sawhorse' test with him, and prefer to only hire people that I know or that someone else I know has worked with, but they aren't always available when you really need someone, and I've been hosed by guys that had very impressive resumes and could talk the talk. I think it could be an interesting test to give someone, but could never match a lengthy interview process.The last time I had to hire 2 carps(at previous employer), we received over 75 calls, and I interviewed about 10 of them. After three weeks of that process consuming my daily life we hired two guys. They both were let go within three months, and they were FAR better than any of the other applicants. I'm really glad that I haven't had to go through that for my company, because I couldn't afford the time.
Had to chime in about the sawhorse test...
Think it's a fine idea for the first day of work. Even if you're a great Carpenter with a bad day and your sawhorses are less than awe-inspiring it shows you can cut, measure and work independently. The whole thing doesn't need to be high stress - just explain that everyone has their own pair of horses and his/her first task is to make a pair for use on the job... and if a guy is well equipped enough to show up with horses ahead of time then they get full marks.
As for the original question about good employees...
While it's possible I'm not the kinda guy any of you would want to hire this is what speaks to me in order:
- Opportunity to enter apprenticeship program.
- Opportunity to work independently in reasonably positive environment.
- Opportunity to build relationship to someday work for company bidding work as sub.
- Adherence to labour code.
- Wage (in-line with my productivity). The worst thing for my moral is to work side by side with people who are making more and doing poorer work.
- Interesting Nature of projects.
- Flexible Work hours (4 day work week or ability to (with notice) take days off).
- Safe work environment.
Essentially... you need to run the business like the people you wish to attract... You guys all seem to want keeners with good attitudes, honest, have tools, knowledge etc... Well we want employers who are the same way - except you don't need to have the tools (yours are all trashed anyway) just pay us enough so that we can afford our own.
Matt (second year apprentice)
Edited 7/5/2008 1:11 pm ET by matt in golden
heh, heh... you said "moral"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well...I was going to go back and correct it after you pointed it out...but I'll let it stand as a Freudian slip...Matt
Nice post matt. You beat me to the punch.Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
"The last time I had to hire 2 carps(at previous employer), we received over 75 calls, and I interviewed about 10 of them. After three weeks of that process consuming my daily life we hired two guys. They both were let go within three months, and they were FAR better than any of the other applicants.I'm really glad that I haven't had to go through that for my company, because I couldn't afford the time."Nobody said it would be easy to be self employed and wear all the hats. I too have received far too many calls for ads that I have run. I learned to create the type of ad that sorts out the wheat from the chaffe upfront. Now, if I get 75 responses to an ad, I know I haven't written it properly. I know this from experience.I also know from experience that even if I create the perfect ad, interview the optimum amount of people, spend the optimum time with them and hire the best people: THEY MIGHT NOT WORK OUT! My experience has shown me that there is no test, no interview or no tenchinque that will yield 100% results. Look at it like a baseball manager does. He puts someone in every position but not everyone is suited for that job. Maybe the skills are n't just right, maybe the chemistry was wrong, maybe the player leaves the team for another opportunity. The point is that a sawhorse test would eliminate some of the candidates that you really might want. When I hired Frank and the guys after him, I instructed them build a set of sawhorses and told them that I would inspect them, but the main reason was that I wanted them to have their own set so they would stop touching (and ruining) mine. It was a hilarious exercise, yet very rewarding in terms of structural lessons. I remember Ben's failing under load because he oversplayed the legs, both ways. I remember failing Franks because I couldn't store my square anywhere and had to store it on the ground and bend over to pick it up everytime I needed it. I think I graded Ben's about a D- and Frank got a C-. I declared that only horses with a B or better would be "traveling". They didn't understand what I meant till the end of the job and I cut theirs in half and tossed them in the scrap pile. We all got a big laugh. Each job, they built new ones till they got their "B" and they proudly had created a "traveling" set of horses...ones worthy of transport to the next job. The more amazing stories would be those of the journeymen I hired and insisted that they build their own. I had one journeyman who, for some unknown reason, stalled building a set. He was never allowed to "waste time" building "stupid things" like sawhorses. I finally forced the issue one day when I walked up and saw him cutting things on my horses. I asked if I could borrow his saw for a cut and he said "sure". I cut MY HORSES in half and told him..."I guess you're finally going to have to build your own horses". They were predictably weak. I guess this illustrates that there is some value in building horses but I don't think it will tell you everything you want and need to know about hiring a guy. It's an interesting thought though. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, I could have sworn you've told about a hundred stories about making guys build a set of sawhorses on your jobs as a test???
I would build you the best dam sawhorses youve ever seen fastr than anyone youve put to the test.
I agree, the mentality going into the "test" is what i'd be looking for.
Its you thats looking for a job and if your too good to show your sh*t I dont want to see it anyway.
no way man, mine are better and nobody is faster. you pick the time and place and bring your running shoes and i'll learn ya.
Wage has a lot to do with better people.
I believe in the old( you get what you pay for) especially with help.
~Mike~
"Gentle to the touch, exquisite to contemplate, tractable in creative hands, stronger by weight than iron, wood is, as William Penn had said,"a substance with a soul.'"
Eric Sloane
here's what I know about this subject after 31 years in the biz.
I know that finding good people is not a regional problem, or even a problem with our industry. Every business owner has the same problems with employees. However, it seems that in construction we see many more workers who seem to think they are a carpenter or skilled craftsman just because they possess some tools.
I have had my own business for the past 6 years, and have gone through 15 carpenters. I am actually done with hiring any more-we currently do not have any on staff and that will not change. I am tired of working for free and working backwards, or making service calls on the weekends because of something one of my guys did.
We offered a fair wage. I would start guys who had good experience and tools at $18/hr, with benefits. If someone had better exp. that would go up to $20. We would offer incentives to increase pay such as completing things correct and on time, and even gave half-yearly reviews.
We based our employees pay on my value in the marketplace. That is, with my skillset, I am capable of earning a certain amount, and I have every tool I need to perform my job. We would evaluate an employee based on these 2 criteria and offer a pay package accordingly. As an example, if an employee was performing at a rate equal to 60% of what I can perform at, and had 90% of the tools to do the job, then he would receive a proportional amount of pay in comparison to what I could make.
I actually agree with the test that Tucker W suggested, except that I would make sure that they had their tools and work clothes. It is the kind of thing that will let you know exactly what the persons attitude is going to be towards his work. Some guys will take offense and blow it off. Some guys will build the saw horses and use the rest of the wood for a bird house. That's the guy I would hire.
sully