FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In

Discussion Forum

Discussion Forum

Got Pranked on Servicemagic

MSA1 | Posted in Business on September 10, 2008 05:24am

Got a text over the weekend about a bathroom job. This was an exact match.

I tried calling the guy all weekend and got no answer, no machine. Hmmm.

Then I try to e-mail this person. the next day I get a reply that is written in broken english at best that said, “i’ll be home all Tuesday”.

I reply back i’ll be there between 9&10 a.m.

I leave my job and drive across town and find the house. Its abandoned.

I try calling again, check the address. Nothing.

Guess its getting pretty cut throat here in Michigan.

 

Family…..They’re always there when they need you.

Reply
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

Replies

  1. Jim_Allen | Sep 10, 2008 06:25am | #1

    You'll get credit but you gotta learn that lesson fast. If you can't vet them in some way on the phone, don't do the drive.

    I'd develop a script. By the time you are done with the script, you should have an opinion about whether the lead is serious.

    1. User avater
      IMERC | Sep 10, 2008 06:28am | #2

      care to post or email the script??? 

      Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

      WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      1. Jim_Allen | Sep 10, 2008 06:41am | #3

        I don't have a script but I've got material in books that explain it. I also have a buddy that used one in his roofing business and he explained that it was very powerful. He'd have his receptionists run through it, taking all the info down in order to set the appointment. He said that they could tell which leads would close just by the answers on the script. One of the most powerful questions according to him was "Were you going to be interested in using our credit services?" He said that if they said yes to that question, they had a very high closing ratio because most of the other bidders didn't offer the credit but the big reason was that the salesagent never talked about what the full price was..he'd offer each detail as a monthly figure. I don't take the sales calls and I've urged my gal to use a script but she's stubborn, won't listen and doesn't care. She said she'd rather go out there and talk to every lead. She's not busy and/or successful enough yet. When she is, she'll be running a script.

        1. User avater
          Dinosaur | Sep 10, 2008 07:10am | #5

          Jim, this is one I'm gonna disagree with you about, with all due respect.

          I think scripts dehumanise the transaction between the seller and the client, and that right there is the best way I know to lose high-quality clients. I can tell in 2 seconds when the person on the other end of the phone is using a script or a process tree and to me, that is a signal this company does not regard me as a human being, but as a wallet.

          I am not interested in doing business with companies like that, will do so only if I have no other choice...and will be the biggest PITA I can manage to be in return.

           

          Dinosaur

          How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          1. Jim_Allen | Sep 11, 2008 01:59am | #6

            Dino, I understand your objection. I also understand the "feeling" that you are talking about. Done right, you won't know a script is happening. Done wrong, you might feel abused. The receptionist (that might be you) needs to engage the client in a normal conversation as they go about getting the information to set the appointment.

          2. User avater
            Dinosaur | Sep 11, 2008 03:11am | #7

            'Done right' implies having a sales person or CS person with an abnormally high level of acting talent. I think that's rare in sales; anyone good enough to fool an intelligent homeowner could probably make a heck of a lot more money in Hollywood. ;-)

             

            The problem I see is having the needed information defined by a written script on the theory that the sales person/receptionist isn't bright enough to get that information without one. This may in fact be true--there are 'way too many no-talent jerks out there who fall back on phone sales as a job of last resort. A company which decides to use such people anyway must therefore make up for their incompetence by sticking a script or interviewer's process tree on the computer screen. But that defines a company which believes its clients are just as dumb as its sales people...not a company I'd like to work for or to buy from.

            OTOH, a company which knows its products and services are good should hire good people to sell them, and then let those people engage potential clients on a one-to-one human level. Did you ever order anything by phone from L.L. Bean? Their phone people are so good it's incredible. By the time you finish ordering a pair of slacks, you'll feel like you've been talking with an old friend the whole time.

            They don't do it with scripts. They do it with highly sophisticated computer tracking--before a rep answers your call he/she already knows your name, address, phone number, and past year's purchase/inquiry record. But more importantly, Bean's hires people who like to talk to people, and then trains them to use their native talent in conjunction with the information system Beans provides for them.

            A Bean sales person will happily talk with you on the phone for an hour to make (or not!) a $20 sale...because Bean knows it's a lifetime engagement and they'll get 'repaid' for having invested that hour many times over during the years to come. 

            That's what I think is missing today: No long-term corporate perspective.

            Dinosaur

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

          3. Jim_Allen | Sep 11, 2008 03:47am | #8

            Your version of a script is not mine. A script is a form that gets filled out which for the most part is necessary information to write a contract. Interspersed in this "must have" questionairre is a "would like to know" form. You see them all the time on websites. I must say that your version of what sales is all about is much different than mine too. I don't hire actors. We aren't trying to fool anyone. Think about it this way: you yourself will ask all the same questions at one time or another during the discovery phase of any project. You are choosing to do all the discovery yourself, in your own way. There are more than one way to skin that cat.

          4. User avater
            Dinosaur | Sep 12, 2008 06:14am | #15

            Your version of a script is not mine.

            A script is a form that gets filled out....

            Ahhhhhhh. 'That,' as the footman said to Dorothy, 'is the horse of a different colour you've heard tell about!'

             

            Forgive me, Jim; I thought 'script' meant, well, script:

            "Good morning [sir or madam as the case may be] are you the person to whom I am speaking?

            [if yes] "Excellent. I understand you would like to buy a new roof. We have Mega-brown, Tutti-Frutti, and Trailer-Park-Pink in the Architectural Line and this week only our Elegance Line is available in Black Velvet at a 20% savings over next week...."[if no] "I see. Would you like fries with that?"

             

             

             I don't hire actors. We aren't trying to fool anyone.

            I didn't imagine you were, bro. Sorry if it came across that way. Not my intention at all....

            Dinosaur

            How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....

    2. MSA1 | Sep 11, 2008 03:50am | #9

      Yeah, I already called them.

      I know, I know, I shouldnt have moved without a phone conversation, but I did. 

      Family.....They're always there when they need you.

      1. Jim_Allen | Sep 11, 2008 04:25am | #11

        We've been getting a string of bad ones lately. mabye it was a full moon.

        1. MSA1 | Sep 11, 2008 04:29am | #12

          They're running out of time with me. I havent gotten a good one yet. If one in ten is good that means i'm payin' $500 a job plus $300 in gas chasing all these dreamers.

          If I get to $1k with no job, they're gone.

          I cant imagine why somebody would send someone across town for kicks. Guess its the same mentality that writes viruses for PC's.  

          Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          1. Jim_Allen | Sep 11, 2008 05:13am | #13

            LOL. I'm doing close to 1k per month. I did get some nice savings on my GL by going with them. I'm going to expand my advertising in different ways now.

          2. MSA1 | Sep 12, 2008 03:25am | #14

            I capped myself at $200 / month to try these guys out. They cant even fill that. Last month they failed to send me four of these "wonderful listings".

              

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          3. Jim_Allen | Sep 12, 2008 06:35am | #16

            Did someone tell you they were "wonderful". That sounds so cheesy LOL! Hey, you're in MI, what do you expect?

          4. MSA1 | Sep 13, 2008 02:30am | #17

            No, I was refering to the quality of the leads i've gotten so far.

            Lets go over the list:

            1. Needs a bathroom but doesnt want contractors in her house, would never return a call so I could present the estimate.

            2. Home renovation with 12k budget

            3. Major bathroom reno, competetion came in under cost.

            4. Abandon house in the ghetto.

            5. Going to look at a bathroom job in the morning. I cant wait, the guy probably has all the change he's collected since 1994 in a bucket to pay me with. Of course all the change he's collected will amount to about $2000 from which he will expect change from the job. 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          5. Jim_Allen | Sep 13, 2008 03:06am | #18

            I warned you to pick your zip codes and classifications carefully. Make sure you request a refund on all the nonsensical ones. We get most of our requests honored. I also warned you that you might not have any luck in MI. You are looking for one good lead. We've gotten dozens so far...meaning that we are more than satisfied with our results even though the average cost for a sale is more than 300. I guess just one of our sales has paid for two years of leads.

          6. MSA1 | Sep 13, 2008 03:57am | #19

            Jim, those leads came out of West Bloomfield and Grosse Pointe.

            What zip codes should I be working in? 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          7. Jim_Allen | Sep 13, 2008 04:23am | #20

            I don't know about the Grosse Pointe market. I'd probably pass on that one. I'd be thinking Troy and Rochester. How narrow can you zero in those zipcodes? It sounds like you are getting Pontiac call because of your West Bloomfield zip. If I was there, I might look for a single zip code with white collar money in areas where the Soccer Moms redecorate.

          8. MSA1 | Sep 13, 2008 04:59am | #21

            The two West Bloomfield calls were within a mile of my house. I'm ten miles from Pontiac at least.

            I've made alot of money Grosse Pointe. I like that area alot.

            Never thought about Troy or Rochester though. Good Call. 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          9. Jim_Allen | Sep 18, 2008 09:18pm | #22

            Today "We" just sold another design package from a SM lead. $3500.The job scope. 10 x 16 deck with "exotic" material and some minor roof alterations associated with the deck remodeling.We'll include structural engineering services as a component of the plans. Heres how the sales presentation went:Us: "Your deck will cost anywhere between 20k and 25k depending on the design and that will include the plans and design as well as the deck itself. The price could change radically depending on the actual plans.Client "Yes, I know that." Us "It makes sense to get the plans drawn first, then figure out the price. We offer a design service for only $3500." Client "That makes sense. Let's do it.".It's that simple LOL! The client has a professional background and has been involved in designs, plans etc. They understand the value and importance of the planning process. Those are the clients we are chasing. We are getting those types every once in awhile from our marketing campaign. The others will buy the complete deck from us, then we design and put it on paper. We are flexible...we'll do it either way.

          10. MSA1 | Sep 19, 2008 02:07am | #23

            Those are the clients i'm chasing too but instead I get alot of people (from SM) that just seem disinterested before I even begin to sell.

            The people I get balk at $100 drawings for permits. 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          11. Jim_Allen | Sep 19, 2008 04:26am | #24

            I don't know why it's different in MI. Jillian had more success in VA than here but were surviving.

          12. MSA1 | Sep 20, 2008 02:43am | #25

            Send her up here for a week. :>) 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          13. Jim_Allen | Sep 20, 2008 08:58pm | #26

            I wonder what would happen.Something interesting to report though about another small business guy I know. I've talked about this guy before setting up a roofing business without every laying a roof himself. He built a great roofing business but went bankrupt when he started a building business. After some devastating personal things, he got back to MI and reopened his roofing business and is having a lot of success. I last spoke to him in January and he was dead in the water in FL. Now, he's having success in MI. I don't know any of the details firsthand. I've been told that he has further refined some systems (lead generation, lead processing etc,) and that everything is hitting on all cylinders so far. It should be noted that he uses commission only sales and professional subcontract installers and ....scripts when leads call in...Horrors LOL!

          14. MSA1 | Sep 21, 2008 05:12am | #27

            Interesting, I need to get more marketing going thats for sure. 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          15. Jim_Allen | Sep 21, 2008 05:42am | #28

            Me too. I plan on substantially upping the marketing as the budget allows.

          16. MSA1 | Sep 21, 2008 07:34pm | #29

            The problem is the opposite. I/you need to up the marketing when you're slow (as you well know). I just need to find the best bang for the buck as it were. 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

  2. User avater
    JeffBuck | Sep 10, 2008 07:08am | #4

    in a real bad area ...

    sounds like it'd be a good way to get a contractor to show up with a truck fulla tooks ... kill him and steal everything.

    like the old "rob / kill the pizza guy" trick with a fake delivery.

     

    Jeff

        Buck Construction

     Artistry In Carpentry

         Pittsburgh Pa

    1. MSA1 | Sep 11, 2008 03:51am | #10

      I was half expecting someone to come out of the bushes. This was the type of neighborhood the aluminum siding was stolen half way up the house just inside Detroit city limits. The place was so over grown I passed it the first time, couldnt see half the house.

      I could almost touch my truck while standing on the porch and I still locked it.

       

      Family.....They're always there when they need you.

      Edited 9/10/2008 9:33 pm ET by MSA1

  3. yojimbo2 | Sep 30, 2008 05:07am | #30

    The issue here is that you even deal with Service Magic. I am surprised they are still in business.

    1. MSA1 | Oct 01, 2008 12:23am | #32

      Let me just say that they came highly recommended to me.

      I actually do have one person that sounds interested in doing a kitchen from them.

      If they bail, I think I will too. 

      Family.....They're always there when they need you.

      1. Jim_Allen | Oct 08, 2008 03:51am | #37

        Any news? Have you bailed yet? We are just now going to apply for subdivision approval on one of our first leads. I think we got it in February. The client has expanded his original scope from a 50k addition to a 250k renovation. We are not sure we will be the GC but we did land the design contract. I'd hate to be playing this game in MI though and I don't blame you for not being thrilled with any marketing attempt.

        1. MSA1 | Oct 08, 2008 03:54am | #38

          They're still batting zero. I probably let it go one or two more months.

          Why not, its only money, right? 

          Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          1. Jim_Allen | Oct 08, 2008 01:20pm | #39

            You got any other options? Are you doing print ads in small papers?

          2. MSA1 | Oct 09, 2008 03:32am | #40

            I have my BlueBook ad and the wife just put something in a local paper.

            We have a kitchen booked right now (waiting on cabinets) that came from a referral.

            Those are my favorite. The lady told me "i'm not shopping around. I want you to do what you did to my friends kitchen".

            Well I did her friends kitchen at the height of my sciatica so this one should go better.

            Funny story. This lady lived in a typical bungalow with four steps up from grade to enter the first floor.

            You think I instilled alot of confidence when I crawled up the steps barely able to see from pain? :>)

            She told me she didnt believe I came to work that day "you're pupils were diliated."

              

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          3. Jim_Allen | Oct 09, 2008 03:46am | #41

            I can't imagine how you did it. I literally couldn't walk more than fifty feet and that was after four hours of heating up and trying to unwind. Congrats on the job though. I remember the 80's in MI and everytime I'd be down to my last few dollars, another miracle job would come thouhg. I think I had a streak of two years worth of miracles.

          4. MSA1 | Oct 09, 2008 04:17am | #42

            Thats how the last couple of months have been. I've spent the same thousand dollars about three times so far.

            The guy we lifted the house for bought about ten more. He doesnt like my prices so I told him occasionally, if I had nothing else to do i'd give him a price cut.

            I'm doing a small trim job for him right now. It sickens me to work at a cut rate but it will cover my liability insurance this month plus a couple other small bills.

            Of course I draw line with this guy. He asked my to go back over to the house I bid as a complete reno to build the stairs from hell at a cut rate, NO WAY.

            Little stuff fills time plus I do it when I get to it so its not too bad. Totally takes me from where I want to go though.

              

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          5. Jim_Allen | Oct 09, 2008 05:20pm | #44

            Have you found the time to get over to the Oakland Real Estate Investment club yet? There will be a lot of networking opportunities going on over there.

          6. MSA1 | Oct 10, 2008 03:57am | #45

            I keep forgetting. It makes me sound like i'm not really into what i'm doing but things get so backed up that I keep forgetting to look up the schedule.

            But, since you brought it up, i'll make a note right now.

            Thanks for the prodding. 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          7. Jim_Allen | Oct 15, 2008 05:25am | #46

            Mark, I got a little more info about the guy who restarted his business in MI. He had three salespeople and they were expected to close 3 jobs a week. He said they are hitting that mark pretty regularly. He said he lost his worse sales guy recently. The guy went down to Columbus and was closing 15 roofs a week. There must be some situation there (hail, etc). The roofer that we used to use in MI is staying busy. Frank is very busy doing the bank foreclosure servicing. He could add trucks and crews if the banks paid faster but his receivables is growing.

          8. Kowboy | Nov 06, 2008 05:42am | #47

            I'm in Michigan and if it weren't for Servicemagic, I wouldn't have any work at all.

            Best bang for the buck I've ever found.

            Kowboy

          9. MSA1 | Nov 06, 2008 05:55am | #49

            You giving it away? They havent provided me with one job yet.

            Here's an example of a lead that i've gotten.

            I had a guy call me. Wanted a complete bathroom for under 3 grand.

            Another called to ask me what the thing above a tub was called (the enclosure). Of course that gem was an exclusive lead.

            Another wanted two bathrooms combined into one. Seperate soaker tub, shower complete with body jets. Complete rework of plumbing, electric, and gutted to studs.

            I came in around 15k. Two other guys were literally standing in the driveway as I left that would do it for 10k.

            You can have those jackasses. I'm having more luck with my Blue Book ad, and referrals. 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          10. MSA1 | Nov 06, 2008 05:51am | #48

            Okay, the next obvious question, where did they find 9 people to sell to?

            I may be missing something obvious, but i'd do about anything to find 9 leads a week.

            Roofing is a little different from kitchens & baths, when a roof goes you need it now.

            Would this person care to share any of his knowledge? I'm always up for an education, hell, i'd even pay for one.

            We sold Onaway yesterday. Took a little loss but at least its off the books now. Too bad the financing fell through, it was a pretty cool house. 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          11. MSA1 | Oct 09, 2008 04:18am | #43

            Honestly that day we ended up getting someone to help my helper but I stayed all day and did light work. That was a rough day though. 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

  4. darrel | Sep 30, 2008 06:43am | #31

    I'm not a contractor...just a homeowner DIYer who's 9-5 is building web sites.

    I had no idea servicemagic was legitimate. I always found it to be crappy site that got good at google spamming.

    I have a hunch servicemagic is the new "A1 Contractors"...they get all the clients that are just too lazy to go beyond the first listing in the yellow pages.



    Edited 9/29/2008 11:45 pm ET by darrel

    1. MSA1 | Oct 01, 2008 12:23am | #33

      Great slogan, "crappy site, lotsa spamming, Come on in!" 

      Family.....They're always there when they need you.

      1. HARDWOODGUY | Oct 01, 2008 01:06am | #34

        "Google spamming?"

        Please define

        1. darrel | Oct 01, 2008 01:48am | #35

          Google spamming is rigging your site so that it shows up high on search results for various terms via rather nefarious means.The point is to get people to search for a term, click on your site, and then click a Google ad on their site, whih they then get paid for. Alternatively, the site may try to get money from you via another method (sell you snake oil, register you for a marketing list, etc...)A lot of generic search words will show a 'directory' site as one of the first hits. These directory sites are usually either paid listings or just ad farms.I'm not saying service magic is that, it's just that site, at first glance, always felt like one.

          1. HARDWOODGUY | Oct 01, 2008 02:13pm | #36

            They're actually called MFA sites (made for adsense) and Google is strict at keeping them out of their index, but they pop up like weeds all the time. I agree SM does look similar on many of their entry pages. I see no trickery. If they were good at it they would be on the first page of Google for terms such as electrician or plumber(a few I selected). Oh I see what you may be looking at. They are listed, but they are paying for it through Google adwords. I'm sure their adwords bills are though the roof too.

            Looking at some numbers, that site has an enormous number of pages! 3.2 million! Some of it what they call content pages, but they're kind of hard to find for a first time visitor. That's probably the way they a get lot of search engine traffic. But let's not ignore traffic from Adwords and especially other sites that advertise for them...to receive comissions if someone fills out a form.

            Rigging (black hat is the term) a site may also go by unintentiontal. I don't see any obvious patterns with SM here. The more popular a site becomes the more it will be linked to. Linking is the cornerstone of how Google ranks sites. We've all probably done it at one time or another. You refer to a site article and place the hyperlink within the body of a message board thread.

             

            Tool I found for the stats

             

            http://siteexplorer.search.yahoo.com/advsearch;_ylt=AvJ4AADdCa5y95FFWWUvOTuk.M4F?ei=UTF-8&p=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.servicemagic.com%2F&bwm=p&searchbwm=Explore+URL

            Edited 10/1/2008 7:15 am ET by HardwoodGuy

Log in or create an account to post a comment.

Sign up Log in

Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

Video Shorts

Categories

  • Business
  • Code Questions
  • Construction Techniques
  • Energy, Heating & Insulation
  • General Discussion
  • Help/Work Wanted
  • Photo Gallery
  • Reader Classified
  • Tools for Home Building

Discussion Forum

Recent Posts and Replies

  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
  • |
View More Create Post

Up Next

Video Shorts

Featured Story

A Classic Paint Sprayer Gets a Thoughtful Refresh

The Titan Impact X 440 offers great coverage with minimal overspray.

Featured Video

Builder’s Advocate: An Interview With Viewrail

Learn more about affordable, modern floating stairs, from design to manufacturing to installation.

Related Stories

  • Podcast Episode 693: Old-House Hazards, Building Larsen Trusses, AI in Construction
  • FHB Podcast Segment: Finding Hazardous Materials in a Fixer-Upper
  • A Classic Paint Sprayer Gets a Thoughtful Refresh
  • Podcast Episode 692: Introduction to Trade Work, Embodied Carbon, and Envelope Improvements

Highlights

Fine Homebuilding All Access
Fine Homebuilding Podcast
Tool Tech
Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Fine Homebuilding Magazine

  • Issue 332 - July 2025
    • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
    • Fight House Fires Through Design
    • Making the Move to Multifamily
  • Issue 331 - June 2025
    • A More Resilient Roof
    • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
    • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
  • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
    • Deck Details for Durability
    • FAQs on HPWHs
    • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
  • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
    • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
    • A Kominka Comes West
    • Making Small Kitchens Work
  • Issue 328 - Dec/Jan 2025
    • How a Pro Replaces Columns
    • Passive House 3.0
    • Tool Test: Compact Line Lasers

Fine Home Building

Newsletter Sign-up

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

  • Green Building Advisor

    Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

  • Old House Journal

    Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters

Follow

  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
  • Fine Homebuilding

    Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X
    • LinkedIn
  • GBA Prime

    Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

    Start Free Trial Now
    • Facebook
    • YouTube
  • Old House Journal

    Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

    Subscribe Now
    • Facebook
    • Instagram
    • X

Membership & Magazine

  • Online Archive
  • Start Free Trial
  • Magazine Subscription
  • Magazine Renewal
  • Gift a Subscription
  • Customer Support
  • Privacy Preferences
  • About
  • Contact
  • Advertise
  • Careers
  • Terms of Use
  • Site Map
  • Do not sell or share my information
  • Privacy Policy
  • Accessibility
  • California Privacy Rights

© 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

  • Home Group
  • Antique Trader
  • Arts & Crafts Homes
  • Bank Note Reporter
  • Cabin Life
  • Cuisine at Home
  • Fine Gardening
  • Fine Woodworking
  • Green Building Advisor
  • Garden Gate
  • Horticulture
  • Keep Craft Alive
  • Log Home Living
  • Military Trader/Vehicles
  • Numismatic News
  • Numismaster
  • Old Cars Weekly
  • Old House Journal
  • Period Homes
  • Popular Woodworking
  • Script
  • ShopNotes
  • Sports Collectors Digest
  • Threads
  • Timber Home Living
  • Traditional Building
  • Woodsmith
  • World Coin News
  • Writer's Digest
Active Interest Media logo
X
X
This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

Main Menu

  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Video
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Podcasts

  • FHB Podcast
  • ProTalk

Webinars

  • Upcoming and On-Demand

Popular Topics

  • Kitchens
  • Business
  • Bedrooms
  • Roofs
  • Architecture and Design
  • Green Building
  • Decks
  • Framing
  • Safety
  • Remodeling
  • Bathrooms
  • Windows
  • Tilework
  • Ceilings
  • HVAC

Magazine

  • Current Issue
  • Past Issues
  • Magazine Index
  • Subscribe
  • Online Archive
  • Author Guidelines

All Access

  • Member Home
  • Start Free Trial
  • Gift Membership

Online Learning

  • Courses
  • Project Guides
  • Reader Projects
  • Podcast

More

  • FHB Ambassadors
  • FHB House
  • Customer Support

Account

  • Log In
  • Join

Newsletter

Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

Signing you up...

This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
See all newsletters
See all newsletters

Follow

  • X
  • YouTube
  • instagram
  • facebook
  • pinterest
  • Tiktok

Join All Access

Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

Start Your Free Trial

Subscribe

FHB Magazine

Start your subscription today and save up to 70%

Subscribe

Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

Already a member? Log in

We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

Start your FREE trial

Already a member? Log in

Privacy Policy Update

We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

Cookies

Analytics

These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

Advertising/Social Media

These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

Essential

These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

Delete My Data

Delete all cookies and associated data