I’m installing some towel bars and grab rails thoughout a condo for an elderly, slightly physically challenged women. Her bath tub was converted to a shower and she wishes for a rail in there, too. Its a stick frame structure but the tile work prohibits me from locating the studs accurately with either an electronic stud locater or more conventional means if the drywall didn’t extend to the ceiling.
If I can confirm the tile was properlly installed on some brand of cement board, I’m reasonably confident I can secure the railing with molly or toggle bolts.
Any words of advice?
Pascanale
Replies
There are special anchors for such applications.
Wingits specializes in them. Order from their website.
But there are other available. Lowes has Moen grab bars and their anchors. IIRC they are rated at 300 lbs/anchor.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Great! I've found them but there's a contradiction in my mind in terms of their use (wingits). The references all cite 2 per grab rail (one each at each end) which implies the mounting holes need/should be in the center of the mounting plate provided by the grab rail. My experience is that the holes (more than one) are located around the center. So, I could use these holes but there's the chance the wingit faceplate could show beyond the trim escutcheon plate of the grab rail.
Pascanale
The Wingits will fit most standard grab bars (though on cheapies you may need to do a little surgery on the holes). The Wingit plate (which has 3 mounting holes in a circle for the bar) may show, but it's attractive stainless steel and will simply look like an extension of the escutcheon.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
DanH,
So I've discovered on a blow-up of the wingit product from a website--actually 4 holes for either three in circle or just two (vertically aligned). As I mentioned in another reply, just hoping I don't land near the studs now that I need 1 1/4" holes plus the wingit's expansion diameter clearance inside the stud bay.
Pascanale
Yeah, the wire thing is the way to do it. Check with the wire, and if you're close enough just use the stud; if you are close to a stud but not close enough, move away a little. You have roughly the radius of the flange to play with, without leaving visible holes.Only time I got fouled up was when found the studs, planned my holes centered between them, and then found a second set of studs there, about a half inch back from the board. If I had't centered but just moved off a few inches it would have been fine.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I'm with you. Thanks,
Pascanale
Bill,
Hopefully, I've caught you before you reply to the previous question. I found a website that showed a better photo of the grabbar wingit. Althought pdf instructions suggest the wingit bolt passes through the "object" being mounted, I see there are four tapped holes in the wingit faceplate to accept provided metal screws--these woudl be aligned, hopefully, with the mouting plate of the grabbar. If not, I'd just drill out the plate to match them. Either way, I have the solution.
Thx,
Pascanale
I've mounted a lot of grab bars and you can't always find a stud. But because there are three holes in each end I've never had one fail. Even the ones that I've come accross that weren't mounted well have never pulled off the wall. I suppose it's the redundancy of the three anchors on each side that is responsible.
Granted, if someone was abusive they could get it off. But for those people there isn't a whole lot you can do.
Does the tile go all the way to the cieling? Can you find the studs above the tile and drop down with your level? How about the other side of the wall.
If you can get an aproximate location of the studs one of the three anchors should hit the stud. Just catching one is a big help.
Popawheelie,
That was my point about not being able to locate studs above the tile since it extends to the ceiling and, the other side of the wall is the outdoors (veneer brick).
The answer is to use "wingits" as proposed by Billhartman. Check them out on the web. They do require a 1 1/4" hole but only one per mount. They even make a specific "wingit" for grabbars, too.
There still remains the potential to hit a stud, now unintentionally, which would complicate the installation of the wingit. I'll start with a 1/4" pilot hole, explore behind the wall with a wire to ensure there is not stud obstruction the diameter of the wingit's faceplate and the expanding device going inside the stud space. Then, I'll hope the same will be clear at the other end of the grabbar so its fixed length will fall inside a stud space.
Pascanale
The grb bar I installed recently is rated for 500 pounds if correctly installed to studs and/or blocking. Most people don't need this; however, the bar should not be just for daily support. Almost anything will work for that. If an elderly person slips and grabs (hence the name) for the bar, it should be able to hold a pretty heavy load.
Like i said, I've never seen one fail and I've seen a few. My last job was in a 45 unit appartment for the elderly and the disabled. The job before that was at a retirement home. I've seen some that were loose. But not one failure. It's not like they were all installed real well either. So I think the redundancy of having three fasteners on each side has a lot to do with that. Maybe the installers did a pretty good job.
Either anchor to the studs or use Wingits. Don't use Molly's or toggles.
DanH,
I just learned about the wingits. Remember, though, stud location is unknown, unless you have an answer to that question--the tile extends to the ceiling and the other side of the wall is the outside of the building.
Pascanale
I have used the Wingets before. They work very well - but are pricey.
You will definitly want to buy their carbide hole saw for drilling the tile.
The only problem I ever had with them was once I found out the wall behind the tile was studded with the 2x4's laying flat (of course, only after drilling the 1 1/4" hole). They still worked, but I had a minor amount of drywall repair to the wall on the othe side. Luckily it was the back wall of a closet.
Terry
If you can get in from the other side with reasonable ease, that's still the best way to do it. Open up the wall and install solid blocking where it's needed.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
If the condo is not to old there is a chance of backing being in the wall. We do a lot of condos lately and all baths have to be handicap adaptable. (I'm in California)
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Thx, but I'm inclined to believe they're not there. The building's old enough but the resident did mention she had the tub converted to a shower...maybe they did install blocking when/if they put up new cement board for the tile work...that would be nice to know, especially if I did decide to use the wingits to fasten the grabrail and encoutered 2-by instead.
I'll proceed with pilot holes (1/4") assuming blocking or studs. If there is a stud, I'll use. If not, then fish with a wire to make sure there is clearance for a 1-1/4" hole for the wingit and drill that.
thx,
Pascanale
As others have said, buy their carbide hole saw. Makes quick work of the boring, and is a lot neater than trying to drill multiple small holes and enlarge.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
That's a done deal...
later,
Pascanale
Please let us know how the wingit installation goes, as I need to install some grab bars in my own shower. Thanks.
I'll be happy to do so. However, I won't be doing this job until the week of 29oct-early November.
Pascanale
Moen had some new toggles that they claim can take 600# in sheetrock. I saw them at the kitchen and bath show last week. you need to drill a large hole though, and through tile is no fun.
Yeah, the Moen toggles work kinda like the Wingits, only with a large plastic toggle instead of the fingers. They also aren't self-sealing, unlike the Wingits, don't look as nice, and cost about the same.Can't really see much point in using them, unless you can't get your hands on the Wingits.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I've never had a use for either, but I had just seem them the other day. I don't know about the Wingits, but the Moen rep said that his are the only ADA approved fastening system that doesn't require mechanical fastening to a structural member. My guess is that he was trying to make a sale.
on a side note they also had a really sweet hot/cold hose spiggot. Makes me want ot wash my truck in the winter.
AFAIK, the Wingits meet ADA specs, and I'd trust them sooner than the Moen units -- stainless steel vs plastic, and bears on the entire diameter of the hole instead of just a few points. I'm not sure that anything is "ADA approved" except Crest toothpaste.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Can you find the studs from the other side of the wall? Can you find them above the shower enclosure by drilling small exploratory holes? Once you find one, the rest should be easy. You can usually install a grab bar at an angle across two or three stud bays, depending on the size of the bar.
I just read the rest of the posts, so here is what I would do with tile all the way up. I would drill a 1/4" hole up high in one of the tiles. Then you can use a wire to find the studs.
Another method would be to remove a tile, drill to find, and then reinstall the tile or replace. This would depend on how the tile is mounted and what kind of tile you have.
Edited 10/16/2007 7:31 pm ET by Sasquatch
Actually, I stated in the original posting, I can't either clear the tiles (they extend to the ceiling) nor can I come from behind (the wall is an external wall). However, you mention mounting the rail at an angle--I keep forgetting that trick, conceptually can be applied to a fixed measure across any given distance that you want to divide, like 4 evenly spaced holes across a board that's not 5" wide but a little less--just tilt your ruler until the 5" mark is on one edge...
Yes, I intend on drilling a 1/4" pilot hole and using a wire to search the stud bay and go from there. It is complicated by the large diameter holes one drillls for the wingit and other similar fasteners, though.
Pascanale
Also, if the joists come out a bit odd note that grab rails are available (from some suppliers) in lengths other than 16/32/48.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
That oddball length could come in handy--good to know. Or, I swap a drilled tile with its neighbor if my length is off, although I'm not keen on the prospects of prying out the tiles without damaging them. My Fein multi-tool with a diamond saw works great on the grout but if the lines are small, its still tricky to lift the tile off its mastic.
This question has raised an amazing amount of responses--I think its time to say, " 'nuff said", time to do some work.
Pascanale