We have had our lumber delivered to start our new cottage. Upon inspection, the lumber yard shipped mostly S-P-F GRN – not KD #2 or better as ordered. They say it should not be a problem, but we can return it if we want. We say they are nuts (but we are just stupid homeowners) – comments?
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Replies
I'd want the KD myself. I find it easier to work with and that, in general, it produces a better frame because there's less movement as the wood dries out. That's just my opinion though and I'm sure others will disagree.
We have read that if you use green, the walls will not be plumb, square etc. I suppose if you really know what you are doing and adjust for shrinkage, but... quite frankly, my husband was the one who noticed it and the framer said "I would never have caught that - I just build with what is delivered" We don't want to take the chance. Too much has gone wrong already.
Wood physics aside..... if you're uncomfortable with it, then you should change it. It sounds like you and your husband are at the beginning of self-GCing your own project and are probably new at this. You've got a long road ahead of you. And piece of mind will be hard to come by. Here is an opportunity to take one less worry out of the picture and it won't be hard or expensive. Get what you want.View Image
>>>That's just my opinion though and I'm sure others will disagree.I sure wouldn't disagree. SFP studs tend to 'propeller' even when they're KD. If you're working with green SPF you'd better get it nailed up right away, or send it back, because once it starts changing it'll be a beech to work with.Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
i wouldn't disagree either, and even with the KN don't let it see the light of day, keep it covered from exposure to the sun as much as possible because it too will "propeller"
diesel and scott are absolutely right.
Many houses are framed with green lumber, and I even know some carps who prefer to work with it, because it's a heck of a lot easier to sink a nail into. Too, green lumber hasn't warped yet, and if you lock your studs in tight with blocking, firestops, and whatnot, they'll dry straight...which is more than one can say for too much of the KD lumber delivered to jobsites.
But quality homebuilding is not done with green lumber for the most part, and most of the yards around here who used to look at you weird if you asked for KD now stock nothing but. If I wanted some green framing lumber for a specific reason, I'd have to go to the mill and make a special order to have some kicked outta the line before it got sent to the kilns.
The moisture in the green lumber will give you all kinds of problems with paint; and shrinkage in the framing will play havoc with your gyprock, t&g paneling, and trim. There is enough water in green 2x6 studs, for instance, to cause the paint on the other side of ½" plywood nailed to them to blister and peel off within 6 months. (Don't ask me how I know that....)
Most importantly, Brian (Diesel Pig) is right: if you're not comfortable with the green lumber, order the yard to take it back. They should have sent what you ordered in the first place, anyway.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
I once recieved wet lumber and thought it wouldn't be a problem. I used it to fram a few simple walls in a remodel. A few weeks afte the job was done I got called back because of drywall screws popping. I tightended them, added a few more screws, spackled them and painted. It never reoccured after that, but wouldn't have happened in the first place had I returned the wet wood for kild dried. Lesson learned. Feel free to learn from my mistake. Return it for dry.
Also, since you specified KD #2 or better, that's what they should have delivered.
--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.net
See some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Edited 6/28/2008 3:45 am by Ted W.
confused
I can add only one thing to what Dinosaur said and that is that green lumber often has a black mould/mildew on the surface. That mould is killed in the drying kilns (though it can bloom again if the frame is left exposed to the weather too long).
Do you want that mould in your cottage?
Was your framer aware that you had ordered KD? If he knew that and was going to go ahead and build with green, then he might be needing stronger coffee in the morning.Or something.
Ron
When I first started framing, Green Hem-Fir was the most popular material in town. KD spruce was "junk" mostly because it was hard, and crooked. I suspect that for whatever reason, as time has gone by, or maybe grading has changed, the KD quality has improved tremendously. I don't generally have to cull a ton of stuff out for floor joists, etc, now with KD.
What I do remember the best about the green HF is the weight, (heavy), the mildew, and the fact that when we used steel bridging, we'd go back when they were doing the finish to nail the bottom of the bridging to the joists, because a 2x12 that measures 11-3/4 when we started the frame often would measure 11-1/4 after it dried out, so the bridging wouldn't be in tension after it shrank. I also remember more than one house where they sat the baseboard on top of the oak floor, and after the joists shrank, there was a 3/8ths gap under the base. etc,etc.
In this day and age, It (green) wouldn't even be an option for me, whether building for myself, or something my name was on. Go kd, or go engineered floor system. As for the latter, depending on the size of the house, it might not cost as much as you think.
my .02
Bing
Edited 6/28/2008 9:32 am ET by Bing187
Thanks to all for the feedback. It confirms what we thought. And yes, one lift of the studs was covered in mould when delivered, which is why we started looking. The lumber yard has started redelivering but.. originally it was delivered (dumped) over a lake ice road in late March. It needed getting it up off the ice, onto the dock, off the dock up 2 full flights of stairs, then up a 30 degree incline hill to be stacked & tarped waiting for the spring build. So, now it has to go off & new stuff on by by boat. We insisted that the lumber yard put the new wood up & stacked as we already killed ourselves & paid labour to do it once. They said they would, but they are just useless at stacking. My husband has had to be onsite supervising / teaching them how to do it properly. I know labour is tough to come by... . We were trying to support the locals and none of the major yards would deliver over the ice, but we will never buy a stick of gum from that lumber yard.
We have inadvertantly become GC's - being a remote build, the locals were all booked for years, so we thought we would keep the procees moving by clearing the land ourselves. Then we discovered instead of good granite Canadian Shield we thought we had, there is a cavity in the middle with an artesian spring running right under the footprint. It has been 3 summers of digging to find footings using a small tractor loader/backhoe (not much bigger than a garden tractor) as it is the only peice of equipment we could get across the lake. We have built a natural stone retaining wall /drain /sump pit to keep the water level down. Our plans had to be redesigned, with a 32 foot concrete grade beam spanning over from one peice of bedrock to the other.(the lowest part of the pit is about 14 feet down) We had to helicopter in the cement.
It has been a challenge from the get go. If it can go wrong it will. Which I thinks is why I can't seem to make a decision on window manufacturers as I am sure whatever I decide I will be sorry. They all seem to have deficianicies.
I am tempted to walk away, on the other hand... it would be worthless, so we must keep going.
How much cheaper is the "S-P-F GRN"?
confused2
If you ordered and paid for Kiln dried that's what you should get..
However Kiln dried is not what many here seem to think it is..
If it says KD 19 that means it has been in a kiln and dried to 19% moisture plus or minus 2%
If it simply says KD and no number after it you can be sure that the wood simply rolled thru the kiln and was stamped. (it's green anyway)
Now depending on when the wood was cut it may already be below 19% moisture anyway and all a sawmill needs to do is roll it thru the kiln and the stamp is legal..
KD 19 is still not done shrinking! You need to get it to below about 12% moisture for it to not have problems and once inside a house in northern climates where heating is constant all winter it will go ahead and dry down to 5% or maybe even lower.
I built my home with all Green timbers.. (It takes decades for green hardwood to air dry especially at the size of some of my timbers).. That isn't a PROBLEM because it's part of wood movement where the art of frame work is critical. In a simple stick built home good carpenters who understand wood movement will have no problem with green wood because virtaully all framing wood is darn green anyway!
Edited 6/28/2008 12:34 pm ET by frenchy
You really do just make it up as you go along, don't you?View Image
dieselpig,
I've sold equipment to a lot of commerical sawmills.. As well as Lumberyards. I understand what really happens.
KD 19 means 19% moisture plus or minues 2%. If you doubt me grab your moisture meter and test some of it.. You do own a moisture meter don't you?
Well that's not going to be complete.. due to the effects of drying in shipping and sitting around at the lumberyards..
IN addition there are production schedules.. Mill operators understand that there is some tolerance for excess over and above the 2%, mistakes do happen. Contractors may grumble about the wood but few are willing to the lose the time involved in replacing, it probably from the same source..
KD 19 means 19% moisture plus or minues 2%. If you doubt me grab your moisture meter and test some of it.. You do own a moisture meter don't you?
Moisture meter! Why would he own a moisture meter? Are you really saying that framers should own a moisture meter? I'm not talking Timber framers.
Joe Carola
I was wondering the same thing, but /Frenchy has been grouchy lately, and didn't want to get into it with him<G>
Grouchy or not, his comment to Brian makes it seem like Brian should have one and checks his framing lumber for moisture, which is absurd if he was seriuos.
Joe Carola
I know. He is a bit much, even in the tavern he has been too much lately. I would tell you what he asked Bobby, but we would end up in the tavern.
It has been awhile since I used green SPF(spruce, pine, fir). It was rough cut and not S4S. I was just helping my Dad. All the problems noted came to pass.
Spent years remodeling houses built around 1900. All used full dimensioned rough cut 2X. It didn't seem to make any difference if the green stuff was used immediately or not. It twisted, turned, and warped in place. It was the lath that held them even close to usable. Gypboard can't do that as stated before.
You must be either in Canada or close. What a way to experience building. Suprised that you haven't commented on a number of questions. Primarily if there is a cost difference between the KD and green lumber, is it rough cut or surfaced (S4S) and why you haven't billed the yard for your time due to their business practices (close to fraud--bait and switch in Colorado). Tyr
I don't know the difference in price between the green & the KD. We priced out KD only at a variety of places, Menards, Lowes in the US & Home Depot / Rona in Canada. I will check it out though. Our contractor is interested, he went back to his last job to discover that green had been delivered & used - but paid for KD. It appears everyone is too trusting.
dieselpig,
I don't think frenchy is out to lunch on this.
The thing is, the free water in a piece of wood is easy to get out and getting it out will reduce a mill's shipping costs and add value, so they do it. Reducing the MC of a piece of softwood below about 19% is more difficult and costs a lot of energy while adding nothing to the sale price - so they don't do it. And, as frenchy says, the shrinkage only starts once you start getting the MC below 19 or so.
You know this.
Ron
19%KD is surface moisture and the interior of the wood might still be above that.The laughable part of frenchies claim is that it will still do a lot of shrinking or that it will end up dried to 5%
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"If it simply says KD and no number after it you can be sure that the wood simply rolled thru the kiln and was stamped. (it's green anyway)"I have corrected you on that many times with links to the references.So either you are lieing or have have alzheimers (sp?)..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann.
I kept telling you to grab a moisture meter and start testing some wood fresh out of a Kiln..
You refuse to do that perfering instead to click and paste..
"KD 19 is still not done shrinking! You need to get it to below about 12% moisture for it to not have problems and once inside a house in northern climates where heating is constant all winter it will go ahead and dry down to 5% or maybe even lower."You win the competition for comedian of the month!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Tell your lumber rep they are the professionals and the specs say KD.
You are not the professional and you dont appreciate a "professional" pulling that kind of ####.
Your role is not babysitter, you are bill payer, home owner and you demand that they conform to the spec's.
Tell them, if you did use it, that they are paying for the drywallers return trip and any extra labor for culling of twisted lumber, (meaning the framer sorting thru and not using twisted lumber) and any lumber repairs for twists.
You will set a precedent that is clear and word will get out to abide by the specs
BTW, fill in your profile so we know where u are. Click on your name and your profile will come up and then you can edit it.
And have fun building your cottage!!
That is exactly what we told them, take this ### back, deliver us what we ordered and put in exactly the same spot you found it. So far they have replaced about 25% over 2 days. The laborers they sent were a joke. Six men riding the boat back & forth, getting in each others way loading the boat. They had no clue how to stack lumber, work in teams. After 3 hours, the lumber yard called to find out why they weren't back yet - they have no clue - it took over 100 man hours to get the stuff off the ice & up the hill to stack - why they thought it would take 3 hours when now they have to load & unload the boat as well I will never know. They have now not shown up for the last 3 days.
Now we are not sure about one of the new lifts of studs - they have blue streaks through them - we think from standing dead ? Don't know about this.
Sounds like you'all have a real tough hoe to row. Might be a reason all the local builders were booked for years.
Occasionally we get a lift of KD SPF studs (or whatever) that is quite moldy - so that can happen with KD lumber too. I would not want to build with green lumber though. BTW - for whatever it's worth although I'm in the south eastern USA much of the KD SPF framing lumber we get is from Canada.
I occasionally return building materials but when picked up from site they are neatly stacked where they can be picked up with a forklift. The delivery guys from the main building supply I use are very professional but I did have one say that me having the lumber stacked in the garage to keep it out of the weather wasn't a good idea since they didn't normally pick up stuff that had to be moved in order to be picked up by the forklift. In that instance he and I moved the stuff out of the garage so he could forklift it onto his truck.
What I'm saying is that I'm not sure the lumber yard should be required to pick up materials from other from the original location (or close to) where it was delivered. It was their mistake for delivering the wrong stuff but it was your mistake for moving it to a (more) remote location and then, 3 months later, discovering it isn't what you wanted. My guess is that most any building professional would have noticed how heavy the lumber was on the first couple of green boards.
Sounds like the lumber yard you are dealing with is trying to do the right thing but I'm not sure I'd expect to see them back to get the rest of the stuff. Further, as far as your comments on the level of competence of their laborers, I'm not sure your expectations are realistic.
I know this isn't necessarily what you want to hear, but things can't always be sugar coated...
I have to agree with Matt"s good call.You moved the delivered lumber and then discovered it was green. The yard replaced 25% of the order but have not been back since. You may have to move the lumber back where it was originally delivered. This expense is called "tuition" in the trades. Your cottage sounds like it will be very nice. How about some pictures and progress pictures.live, work, build, ...better with wood
Yes, I am in Canada. The property is on the Manitoba / Ontario border near Lake of the Woods.
Well, we are prepared to put the lumber back where it was delivered. Trouble is, that would mean dumping it in the lake. It was delivered onto the ice in March, days before the ice went out. We had no choice but to move it and move it quickly before it sank.
As to expectation of labour, yes, I guess we do have higher expectations than is realistic. But as was mentioned in someone else's post, we should not have to babysit them or teach them how to stack, work as a team for efficiency, etc. That is their employers job.
If I didn't mention it before, we also hauled up the hill, stacked & tarped 40 x 20 ft I joists that were dumped at our site on a Friday. Monday the lumber yard emailed, oops sorry, not for your jobsite. We do intend to bill them for our time.
The bait & switch notion - absolutely. Several of the lifts had KD identifiers on the tarps, but the lumber underneath was not KD. Mistake? Maybe it is the lumber yard's supplier? The framers arrived this morning and we do not have what we need to start the floor. We spoke to the lumber yard today, they said they had heard the framing was not starting until July 15th. We said, who are you listening to - local gossip - we told you our build date. They will start bringing more good stuff on Wednesday.
Funny how the boss never even said "gee, now could that have happened? Are you sure? Maybe I should check this out myself?" Or even, we are sorry for causing you this trouble! Yes -they are trying to fix it - their local reputation is at stake.
As to tuition, yes, we have learned alot, but expect the lumber yard will learn alot as well about trying to fool dumb home owners.
I am glad the yard is trying to make it right. You should get what you ordered and paid for.
You are far from being "dumb home owners".
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I've done a job on a private island. Sounds like similar logistical
nightmares.
We had to sneak pallets of concrete bag by bag, down the dock, in the middle of the night, cause the Harbor Master threatened to call the Coast Guard if we overloaded the boat.
You should get what you paid for! But if the situation is as difficult
as it sounds maybe using the Green lumber is the lesser of two evils.
If as i suspect this will be a long term project, perhaps you can
plan on not closing in the interior till next year. Get it weather
proof and then let it dry out.
There is nothing wrong with the wood, it just doesn't lend itself
to modern building practices.
It is as you say, a logistal nightmare. For those who have asked, attached are a few pictures - starting with the shoreline prior to development, a view from atop our cliff, digging the "pit"; trees & tent downed by microburst storm (like a tornado) that happened June 07, the lumber drop, and this past May long weekend - the forest fire that encroached the property taking out 2 hectares of forest and about 30 feet of our land. We have had our challenges!
Having trouble uploading pics and have run out of time. Later.
Edited 7/8/2008 3:16 pm ET by confused2
Edited 7/8/2008 3:48 pm ET by confused2
Just to update, the lumber yard sent another crew with the senior order desk manager. What a difference in getting things moving. They are now about 98% done exchanging the lumber. He looked at the stuff going back and agreed he would never build a new home with it. So we are happier that they are taking care of it, but still believe it was not an "honest" mistake in the first place.
Edited 9/2/2008 9:57 pm ET by confused2
Edited 9/2/2008 9:58 pm ET by confused2
What a beautiful spot.
I am glad to see the lumber company making it good.
I hope you continue this thread and update it with your progress. I am sure many will follow your construction.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
So, to pick up this thread with an update... the lumber yard completed the switch out of lumber and the build has started. So far so good. A few framing errors, but nothing major (or so we think). Luckily we have our son who worked for a year as a framer, and my brother who is a local trim carpenter, come by & inspect the work each week. They tell us when things are maybe not up to snuff or that we are sweating the small stuff, (we like to build Swiss watches).
Had a thrill Saturday morning, check out the pics of the view from the dining room.
Glad you got it ironed out.
This kind of stuff is par for the course. It's what keeps construction management types in a job. In another recent thread "one sub hoses another" I describe another type of screw-up. Last Friday the building supply not only picked up my excess siding material that I had given a concise type written list of, but also another pile of material at another house that I needed to finish the house - problem was, that I wasn't even exactly sure what was in the pile. Last month I had a BIG misunderstanding with a lumber salesmen about the price of some lumber (although personally I don't think I misunderstood anything). Two weeks ago someone came and cut the copper out of one of my houses. Last month the prints were drawn wrong which caused a set of double winder steps have to torn out and framed again. A customer is pissed at me because I didn't have the electricians put an exterior outlet where he wanted it, even though I explained to him code requirements that said if he wanted one there, he would have to buy another outlet that would satisfy the code - once I saw him pissed I added an outlet, but he still hasn't committed to buying an extra outlet, nor has he told me how big he wants his deck which is the root of the outlet placement issue anyway. The list goes on and on. Wana hear another 10?
While every industry has it's own unique set of problems & issues - I would go insane if I had to deal with this on an everyday basis. We have had so much go wrong, I feel like I am always just waiting for the next bomb to drop. The kay-serrah-serrah, roll with the punches, change on the fly, close is good enough does not suit my perfectionism.
I think a good GC would be worth their weight in gold. I have been reading some of the threads on "Build by Owner". I would never do this again this way - although I suppose the first time around is always the hardest. It is a full time job, so trying to juggle our own business and this, is way too much. (maybe we are insane already). Even my husband who is "having the time of my life" with this project, I can see his nerves are getting worn.
At least with some visable progress now, gives me hope that someday we will actually be able to relax & enjoy the lake.
Like that Eagle. Is there a nest on the island?
Glad you got things sorted out. Looking forward to your updates.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
We are actually mainland, just no road. The eagles nest is on the island across from us, so they fly back & forth. In the past they used to perch on top of dead white pine stumps on the cliff next to us, which we could only see if we were down on the dock - although they flew overhead daily. This past May, a forest fire burned off their perches on the cliff, so they now sit on our trees in front. I guess some good fortune came out of the fire.
We have had some bald eagles come and visit my parents backyard in Holland Patent NY. It is very unusual as I hadn't seen any since I was a child.
Hey framer,
I tend to follow these things, so I can tell ya they
are back.
It's been about ten years since the DEC announced there
numbers had rebounded. Not sure of the current population,
but it is significant enough that you can observe a few
a year from most highways.
LOOK UP! Like all science these day, it's open to interpretation but
it seams that campaign to stop PCB's has made a huge difference.
Bald Eagles have been taken off the endangered species in Canada, although they are a "protected species. In our area they are abundant. In fact, my husband was driving behind a convoy of semi trailors and saw eagle eating a dead deer at the side of the road. It flew up as the first semi past, got caught in the wind draft and got hit by the next semi. My husband stopped to look at it. It was in perfect shape, so he threw it into the trunk. We were able to obtain a permit to keep it and it is in the taxidermists freezer waiting to be mounted in the cottage.
Now that is COOL
Didn't they upgrade them to threatened in the U.S. also?
That's cool you got the permit, I've heard it can be tough.
They have been delisted, under the Endagered Species Act, and are no longer threatened, in any of the historical ranges in the lower 48 states. The delisting occured about a year ago.
They are not fully recovered yet, in most areas of the US.
I know it was a big thing with the biologists at work that the local poplation is now listed as "recovered".
Edited 7/28/2008 10:37 pm ET by Jigs-n-fixtures
Wow I hadn't heard they were delisted completely.
That truly is amazing. Right now I'm rooting for the fisher cats.
They are coming back slowly, and I need some porcupine
control.
The non-game biologist at work is thrilled that she found fishers in the mountains outside of town, and also found a wolverine den with kits this spring.
They seem to be maikng somewhat of a comeback, but are still isolated in high mountain "islands" geographically.
Having read about them since I was small, it's
been a strange hope that someday I'd run across
one in the wild.
No idea why, they just seem to be missing to me.
Given there reputation as hunters I bet they rebound
nicely.
I'm not sure what 'de-listed' means, but they still have some protections here. Part of my land is encumbered by their protection zones
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In some provinces in Canada it is impossible to get a permit if you are not of native heritage. We were lucky it happened in Ontario, they have a more liberal policy. It still was a bit tough with lots of research on the rules & lots of paperwork, inspection of the bird etc..
Not to mention you had to scoop it
off the side of the road!
They do seem to make such a simple thing complicated.
I had some trouble over a sea otter skull I found once. Blamed it on the dog of course.
yes
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More than likely that is a blue-stain fungus. Blue-stain follows the grain but stops at the heartwood. It is harmless and quite common in any stack of lumber. It attacks the tree before the tree is chopped down and milled into lumber. I'd say as much as 30% in any stack will have blue-stain. If it is just on the surface, it is a mold. Although molds can be washed of with dishsoap and warm water, it isn't your responsibility to hand wash every board that just arrived from the lumberyard. Sounds like thery are just trying to unload some slow inventory on the unsuspecting homeowner, don't stand for it. Assuming it is blue-stain fungus, if it bothers you, return the affected boards. Blue stain does not produce spores and will not affect the structural integrity of the lumber. It does, however, look terrible so dont use it for finish work.
Also, a moisture meter is not a bad thing to own, I will most likely be buying one this weekend. KD-HT is supposed to be under 18% (I think), but that was after just leaving the saw mill. Humidity, storage, weather, exposure, and handling all negatively affect the moisture content of your lumber the moment it leaves the mill.
Some of our trusses have gotten a bit of mold on them. We have heard there is a chemical that can be sprayed on them to get rid of it. Does anyone know about this?
Once everything is dried in, you can use Lysol to kill surface mold and prevent it from recurring. There is a chemical in Lysol (dimethyl-something) that is the same ingredient used in expensive mold "remediation" kits you can buy at HD and Lowes by me. Lysol is obviously far less expensive. There are other regular cleaning products that contain the same ingredient, but Lysol has the highest concentration of it. Others will probably tell you to use bleach - bleach will kill mold, but it will not prevent it from recurring, should things get wet again. Lysol will provide a bit better mold protection in this case.
Thank you so much!
Boracare
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