I haven’t seen a post on hanging cabinets lately, but in all the search results, someone usually brings up these GRK trim screws for securing face frame to face frame:
http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/TRIM_0_information.htm
But no ever talks about how these should be used. The threads look almost as wide as the trim head, so what size pilot drill would you use for a #8 x 2.5″ screw? And what size c’sink would be used and who would sell the c’sink? Not much helpful installation data on the GRK web site.
Also, anybody know where to buy the GRK’s on-line? I would really like to buy the Fastcap Powerheads from the same supplier as the GRK’s but haven’t found anybody that sells both!
Would like to hear about better ideas also. I have been using colored deck screws and a countersink, which works fine for me but they don’t look so great.
Thanks.
Replies
We just did a huge kitchen install using the same screws. They worked really well and left a very small hole to fill. I think it really cleaned up the installation.
I don't remember what size drill bit I used, but it was just slightly smaller than the shank. We didn't countersink either. We were screwing into cherry and didn't have a problem with splitting.
I use an 1/8 inch pilot bit. I've found the narrow Unibit (stepped drill bit) works great to make countersinks... very helpful in harder hardwoods.
Whenever I've used the trim head screws, they tend to suck into the wood instead of pulling the face frames tight to each other, (Yes even with clamps). I've found that the need to predrill depends on the type of wood. I've most recently installed oak, alder, and hickory.
I gave up on the trim head screws and use these instead... http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/CAB_1_information.htm
I use them both for hanging and for attaching face frames to each other. They're attractive enough that I do countersink them, but I don't bother trying to cover the heads.
Please note, I've installed cabinets from two of the most popular suppliers in our area, and the face frames are rarely flat enough or smooth enough to satisfy me. Because of this, I go to great lengths to make the joints between the face frames as tight as possible. (Alpine, Tharp, Are You Listening)?
Remember that often you can hide the screws under the hinges.
SOP for me. I didn't think there was another way.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
True,
I was referring to the occasions when I've used 3 to 4 screws in one stile, just to get the gaps to close. Usually have to use a screw hi and another one low, when there is a crown in the middle of both opposing stiles.
I am open to suggestions, however.
I have gone so far as to use my Festool Saw with guide rail to "Joint" an edge of a face frame, but you can only get away with that in certain situations.
I never expect trim head screws to close any gaps... that is what clamps are for. Clamp the faceframes tight and the trim head screws have plenty of holding power to keep them from spreading apart.I don't use quick clamps to hold faceframes together. I use Pony cabinet clamps and old fashioned c-clamps to hold things tight.All the best,Bass
I Have tried it exactly as you describe. Using real clamps, not quik clamps. But still, have had issues with them pulling apart after setting the trim head screws. The screws hold tight to the frame, but the head pulls deeper into the face frame as the gap reopens when I remove the clamp.
Question, when you receive a cabinet order, do you groan and wince when you check out the quality of the wood used in the face frames?
In these situations, I am simply the cabinet installer. The client has already made the purchase, before I was chosen as the installer.
I'm usually just the installer too. I install lots of Menards cabinets (Shrock, Medallion, Truwood) and for two years I was the only cabinet installer for one of the Home Depot stores that had sales volume in the "top ten" nationally... so I've installed lots of average/poor cabinets (KraftMaid, American Woodmark, Thomasville and MillsPride). Some of the best stuff I see is Omega and the worst is Merrilatt followed by Truwood and Thomasville.Not sure why, but trimheads from GRK have worked well for me. I do use an impact driver and run them in tight.All the best,Basswood
"just to get the gaps to close. "I get them closed with clamps ( or joiner if need be) BEFORE I begin to think about screws
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That is what I am referring to.
I get the stiles tight with the clamps, hi and lo, predrill for the trim head screw, install screws hi & Lo, one in the middle if necessary, Undo the clamps, and watch the stiles separate, as the trim screw heads sink deeper into the stile. That's when I reach for the cabinet hanging screws. They will hold the stiles tight to each other.
This is only on the cabinets with really bad stiles, that should not have been allowed out of the factory.
I thought I was crazy for jointing the edge of the face frame, the few times I've done it, Glad to know that someone else is going to extremes.
Here is the Unibit I use for counter sinks (it has the perfect size and geometry) and the drill and impact setup I use for connecting faceframes together:
Thanks for posting that Unibit pic. Forgot I have a couple but only ever used them for sheet metal work.You guys have scared me off of trimheads with all this talk of gap closing and trimmers pulling itself into the wood. That isn't a problem with the large profile deck screws that I have been using. Guess maybe I'll stick with them.I have come across gaps that CAN'T close on top and bottom of the stile where too much was sanded off or didn't come through the joiner operation correctly? In that case I also pull out the planer even on cheap cabinet jobs. Also I don't consider an occasional spot of glue here and there to be illegal either.
Edited 3/1/2009 7:03 am ET by tc5
I've done 6 Kitchen Showroom displays with just trimheads holding the faceframes together and the displays were all still tight years later.No need to use big ol' deck screws.
Basswood-
I forgot to ask, how deep are you drilling into the second stile with your pilot hole? Or are you letting the auger point of the screw do all the work?
I predrill the pilot the full depth of the bit (just over 2-1/2").
isn't it hard to walk, waddling thru a kitchen with all those Lions hung off your belt?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I keep the Lions in a cage... er, well on a cart, actually. <g>
you are taking care of it right for those bad #### stiles, but the main problem is the lumber they use, not the screw choice.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Remember that often you can hide the screws under the hinges.
Nice tip..thanx
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
Why do I keep...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7ZkQC0riwc
http://www.ramdass.org
Yeah.........I mean, ya already got the the doors off.........
Off or not...sometimes the most obvious things ya miss. They should make screws with matching brass heads as the hinge screws but stronger and longer to go into through both stiles.
Watch...now they'll read this and do it and I won't get a cut : (
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
Why do I keep...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7ZkQC0riwc
http://www.ramdass.org
No need for a countersink with the trimheads. Predrill with same size as the shank.
Don't know what a powerhead is.
I get my GRK at local yards so don't know of online suppliers. Look at them online and there should be an 800 number you can call for info re distributuion and marketing in your area.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Coutersinking the heads results in t-10 bits lasting much longer... especially in hickory and maple cabinets.
LOL, doesn't take much to snap those little buggers in hardwood!
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http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/MS-7010/Dia-Std-Point-x-14-Trim-Head-Countersink
Thanks for that link bd, I didn't know such a thing existed. Although based on some of the other comments maybe a c'sink isn't needed. I'll have to experiment.Last question for anybody on the pilot hole-
Are you drilling completely through the first faceframe stile and deeply into the second stile or do you let the auger point of the screw do it's own work in the second faceframe stile?Piffin-
These are the powerheads that I got to like. What are you preferring for hanging?
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/0830-PHW/FastCap-8-x-3quot-PowerHead-ScrewsThanks all, I guess this was a good question.
Those look pretty nice! I assume they are made to cover with their snap caps or colored peel'n'stick color caps.I use the GRK cab head screws linked earlier in the thread
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I just thought I should mention that trim screws are available from other (and cheaper) manufacturers, with a square drive. I got some at a local Ace when I was installing some trim in our basement. Certainly the GRKs are superior in several ways, but the other brand works fine for simple trim work.
When I was using GRKs upstairs to resecure some old oak trim I found it necessary to countersink slightly, to avoid splitting the dry oak. I just eyeballed the bit sizes.
I got sick and tired of those other brands of trimheads breaking off in hardwood
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Yeah, I'm never going back... to save how much?AitchKay
I actually prefer the #1 trim head screws from Ace. I tried the GRKs, kept breaking that T10 driver, also from GRK. Too frustrating, and expensive, although I liked the screw itself.
I very rarely break either a screw or a bit with the square drives, using the same procedures.
I install lots and lots of cabinets.
when you are up to yur knees in gators, make gatorade
I would add these to your collection of drills.
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Marv
Wow. That's the first negative GRK comparison I've heard. My personal experience has been that GRK removed all of the hassles and drawbacks to using trimheads.I started using trimheads about 30 years ago, USG Hi-Lows, with a #1 Phillips drive. Now, those were a pain!I soon switched to Robertson recess --as square drive was called then -- for most of my work, but I pulled out the can of USGs when I wanted the smallest possible hole to fill.The heads on the GRKs are almost as small as the USGs, but I have never broken a GRK head. Bits, yes, but no more than I'd expect.The only Ipe deck I've built was back in the 90s, though, before I discovered GRKs. That would be the true test of screw breakage. I ALWAYS carry spares of every type and size bit I use -- they're so small, why wouldn't you?I say ALWAYS, but I do remember that time in '05 when I had to come back Saturday AM, because, much to my surprise, I WASN'T carrying a spare bit. And, yes, it was #10 bit for GRK trimheads.AitchKay
I've refurbished torx bits by running it in a drill while holding perpendicular to a running ROS.
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Yeah. Square drive, too.And do it when it's just starting to look less crisp-edged, BEFORE it strips out for the first time. I generally use a fine grit on a belt sander, and a light touch. You can easily double the life of a bit.AitchKay