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Discussion Forum

ground wire to phone/cable lines

BarbaraD | Posted in General Discussion on December 23, 2006 08:50am

I drilled two holes in the exterior wall, about 3 inches apart. I ran the phone cable through one and the tv cable through the other and left them dangling for now.  The phone guy was here working on the equipment of my next door neighbor and I asked him if I had everything he needed to do his hookup.  He looked at it and saw the phone cable coming out the hole and said I needed to provide a ground wire.  He said just run the ground wire to the nearby elec panel, about 6 feet away.  He also said that they use #10 copper wire for grounds, but I didn’t really need to go that big. 

Here’s my problem.  I don’t want to run a wire on the outside of the house because I’d have to put it in conduit and it would be ugly.  I’d rather run a ground wire from a nearby inside outlet, through the same hole already there. There’s an inside 20-amp outlet just two feet from the hole. Then the ground wire wouldn’t show at all.  I would pigtail the incoming ground, is #12 ok?, to the other ground in that outlet bok.  What I don’t know is if this method is ok.  Does this sound ok?  The only reason I question it is that the phone guy said to run the ground to the panel.  Was that just for convenience, or was there another reason? And when the cable tv guy comes to do his hookup, will that same ground wire suffice for him? 

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Replies

  1. VAVince | Dec 23, 2006 09:18pm | #1

    A few things come to mind if I have the right picture. First you can put the ground thru the same hole as the phone wire if the hole is large enough. You can run bare wire or insulated or drive a ground rod right where you need the ground and let the phone guy attach.

    Or better yet,Tell the phone guy to find his own ground. Hey you are paying for the service it's his job! Tell him you want it done cosmetically pleasing and a proper ground.

    1. highfigh | Dec 24, 2006 01:59am | #4

      The phone company's responsibility ends at the demarcation point, usually in the service box on the outside of the house. On older houses, it's just inside but they will usually add a service box outside because they need to verify where their service works and if it's beyond a specified point, they can bill for it. This is because Ma Bell was split up and hardware ownership is up to the homeowner now. AFAIK, the ground is the homeowner's responsibility, the NEC just specifies how it needs to be done. FYI- they don't care how it looks, they just want it to meet their spec and be fairly reliable.
      "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

  2. telephoneguy | Dec 23, 2006 09:27pm | #2

    Run a #10 ground to the panel and route thru the same hole.Do not run to an outlet.It's ok to loop the ground between catv and tel.The installers are not going to drive ground rods..they will ask you to call in when you have supplied the grounds

    1. VAVince | Dec 24, 2006 12:07am | #3

      The big telephone Co. installers in this area are changing the old attitude. Things don't look so great as they did years ago. Lots of competition. Such as wireless taking most of the market, big IP providers moving in with VOIP and doing there own cable and such, cable companies in the phone business,fiber optics. The telephone employee that thinks his/her job is for a life time days are over.

           They are waking up and finding that they need to provide the best service possible without belly aching about driving a ground rod or running a little cable.

       Bring this to their attention and I will bet and double bet they will not walk away from one single customer.If they do, check the internet or local phone book for the next guy.

       

      1. cap | Dec 30, 2006 06:42am | #16

        Vince,

        When you are expected to clear 6-7 trouble tickets a day, there's not much time for a neat install.  And that's too bad. 

        The level of craft produced by Bell System installers back in the day (up until the mid-60s) was very high. Back then, a new installer worked alongside an experienced man for two years to learn the ropes. 

        Now, company policy prohibits any installer from working in an attic or crawl sapce.  So you get a lot of wire run on the exterior of buildings.

        Cliff

        1. User avater
          BillHartmann | Dec 30, 2006 07:35am | #18

          CAPWhile you are here a question came up about EGC's.I know that when grounded receptacles first came out that it was "common practice" to just run a ground wire to the nearest cold water pipe.Of course that was long before plastic pipe.Was that practice ever code approved?I know that I have seen comments here the people have said that there inspector told them to do just that..
          .
          A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          1. cap | Dec 30, 2006 08:18am | #19

            Bill,

            A telephone line pair is balanced, as the ref you provided says.  But the tip lead is at earth potential.  The ring lead is at +48VDC when the line is on-hook, and +5VDC when off hook.

            About your grounding question--yes, at one time, the NEC allowed a receptacle equipment ground to be pulled from a convenient metallic water pipe.  That provision was dropped when the use of PVC piping started to become common.  My guess is in the '83 Code cycle.  I'll dig out my Soares and see what it has to say.

            Happy New Year!

            Cliff

          2. User avater
            BillHartmann | Dec 30, 2006 07:35pm | #20

            Actually the ring is -48 OC.But while the tip is referenced to ground it is through coils and resistors.It is not directly connected to ground anyplace.Here is a rough circuit.http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/teleinterface.html#generalAnd this is a write up on FCC part 68, equipment connected to phone lines.http://www.ce-mag.com/99ARG/Gubish233.html"Transverse BalanceAnything connected to the phone lines that results in one side of the line's having a different impedance with respect to earth ground than the other will tend to cause differential voltages present in the environment to be converted to common-mode noise. This signal, which is usually in the form of 60-cycle noise, will show up as hum.
            "This does not show the ground connection, but does show how the system is balanced.http://www.ce-mag.com/99ARG/GubishFig.1-pg232.html"About your grounding question--yes, at one time, the NEC allowed a receptacle equipment ground to be pulled from a convenient metallic water pipe. That provision was dropped when the use of PVC piping started to become common. My guess is in the '83 Code cycle. I'll dig out my Soares and see what it has to say."In another forum they thought that it was later in the 80's. But list thed the required that the cold water pipe be bonded and part of the ground electrode system. But I was not as concerned about the exact date. But rather that it was legal practice at one time to use connections on the cold water pipe nearest to the receptacle..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

    2. BarbaraD | Dec 24, 2006 08:43am | #7

      Since I shouldn't run the ground wire to an outlet, I won't.  If I drop it down through the joist bay between 1st and 2nd floors, I can bring it down just a few more feet to connect up with ufer ground, which is #4 copper.  Would I just clamp the two together?  Wherever I do this work, I've got to cut into the drywall and then deal with spray-foam insulation, so it's not gonna be easy.  Still, it's better than putting an ugly conduit on the outside of the building.

      So my question: can I connect a #10 groud wire (for the phone and cable tv) to the #4 ufer ground wire, using a clamp? The ufer ground runs from the panel, bare, through the stud walls, then exits near ground level where it enters conduit and dives underground.

      1. BarbaraD | Dec 30, 2006 12:37am | #8

        bump.

        I opened the wall and found the ufer ground (see Edit below) (#4 copper wire) and now I need to attach the #10 ground wire to it.  I'm thinking just clamp it.  But how? With what type of clamp?  Please, anyone, I need to get this done and have been waiting a long time for my post to be answered.  Thanks.  Please be very specific in your reply too, because I need details if there's any tricks to it.  Like do I have to do it inside a junction box or can I just lay the #10 alongside the  #4 and clamp them to each other?

        Edit: It's a 30-foot length of #4 copper wire that starts at the electrical panel and immediately enters the exterior wall of the building, runs sideways through three stud bays, then in the third stud bay turns downward and exits the wall  at the level of the sill plate.  There, it enters a 2-ft length of gray conduit that delivers the wire into the ground where it enters concrete for about 22 feet.  So it is a ufer ground, although maybe you don't call it that until it's actually in the concrete. 

        Edited 12/29/2006 7:25 pm ET by BarbaraD

        1. gstringe | Dec 30, 2006 01:09am | #9

          You should be able to use a listed clamp in the wires but you can't put them in the clamping inside the wall.Where is the Ufer ground where it goes outside? If it were me I would just drive a ground rod at the demark location, that will serve both telco and catv systems.I like your approach....now lets see your departure

          1. BARMIL48 | Dec 30, 2006 01:28am | #10

            Just a thought. If you have CATV feeding a high fidelity signal to an audio unit, be sure not to ground the audio unit to the ground screw on an electrical receptacle, as that could cause noise from a ground loop. The audio equipment should be grounded to the CATV converter box.

          2. User avater
            BillHartmann | Dec 30, 2006 02:20am | #12

            "Where is the Ufer ground where it goes outside?If it were me I would just drive a ground rod at the demark location, that will serve both telco and catv systems."A ufer ground never goes outside.It uses the rebar burried in concrete footer and it is the prefered grounding electrode.Just driving a ground rod won't do it. First, a single groud rode often has to much resistance and 2 or required.But more important the whole concept of grounding systems is that the WHOLE house be at the same ground potential. That is sub-panel have to have a separate ground wire back to the panel and the neutral bus is isolated.No equipment grounding conductor should normally carry any current. And when that is done there is no problems with ground loops..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          3. cap | Dec 30, 2006 06:36am | #15

            And if you did that, you'd be doing something wrong and dangerous.

            The communications protectors and wiring in a building MUST be bonded to the system ground.  That usually means the grounding bus in a breaker panel.

            Grounding the telephone or CATV protector (to protect against lightning/foreign voltage) to a separate ground rod sounds reasonable in theory, because it will allow an energy surge to dissipate to earth.  But it's a bad, bad idea.

            This is because one side of the telephone line (called the tip) is grounded to the utility neutral/ground (somewhere upstream of your house), as is the shield of the CATV coax.  If you don't connect (bond) the tel. protector and the coax shield to the ground at the house panel, bad things happen, as mentioned by earlier posters.

            Cliff

          4. User avater
            BillHartmann | Dec 30, 2006 06:54am | #17

            "This is because one side of the telephone line (called the tip) is grounded to the utility neutral/ground (somewhere upstream of your house),"No the phone line is a balanced circuit.Neither side is grounded.http://www.flukenetworks.com/FNet/en-us/findit?Document=2091596.
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

        2. User avater
          BillHartmann | Dec 30, 2006 02:16am | #11

          If you are at a point where you have acess to the actual rebar you can use one of these.http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/466380
          http://www.galvanizersonline.com/content/electrical/nr2005-2.asp
          http://www.aifittings.com/g_4a.htmNow they are listed for direct burial in the ground or in concrete. Don't know but I assume that you could "burry" it in the wall.Or if you only have the wire you can use a split bolt like these.http://electrical.hardwarestore.com/14-46-split-bolt-connectors.aspxSplit bolts are commonly available in hardware and home horror stores.I see no reason to have it in a box. But it should be accessible.If the hole is small emough use a one of the low voltage "rings" and a blank coverplate.If you have a larger hole you can get a plumbing access cover. The have spring loaded fingers to hold them in place and are again avaialbe in the home horror stores..
          .
          A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          1. BarbaraD | Dec 30, 2006 03:43am | #13

            Thanks for the links to the photos of these clamps.  The one that fits my situation is the split-bolt clamp.  The link shows many sizes.  Should I just go over to Home Depot and see what apprears to be the right size for the #4 and #10 copper wires to fit in the little space available in the split-bolt clamp?  And I do know what you mean about an access cover plate because I have already put in two of them for plumbing reasons.  I think I'll use one of those orange-colored low-voltage "boxes" and a cover plate. 

            Now, a question about using the split-bolt clamp:  Do I unscrew the nut from the bolt so that the clamp can slip around the #4 ufer wire, because I can't cut that wire; I must connect to it without cutting it.  From the photo, it looks like it works that way.  I'll wait to hear back from you before I go to HD.  Thanks.

          2. User avater
            BillHartmann | Dec 30, 2006 05:13am | #14

            AFAIK all of them can be completely disaembled so that you can slip them over a wire..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

  3. User avater
    Sphere | Dec 24, 2006 04:26am | #5

    Here I have a NID outside and it is on the same ground rod as my power and the Sat dish is also sharing it...I can't help much more than that.

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.

  4. LeeLamb | Dec 24, 2006 04:41am | #6

    The reason you WANT a heavy ground wire is it is for your protection. The demarcation point most likely also houses the telco's protector (lightning arrestor). This device needs a very reliable and durable ground.  If the phone line becomes energized with a foreign high voltage the protector operates and grounds that side of the line (hum on the line).  Never disconnect the ground to the protector. Grounds were used for other purposes in the past too, such as paths for ringing on party lines.  Be careful.

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