Grounding an outlet to a water line
I’m a carpenter acting as a part-time electrician (uh oh, you say!) In demoing a wall for a kitchen remodel, I found that an outlet by a copper water line to the sink isn’t grounded (old Romex, not in real bad shape)
Can an outlet be grounded by running a piece of wire to fasten to the pipe? Or would that induce electrolysis in the pipe? I’ll be installing a GFCI…would it need to be grounded?
Thanks very much!
Jennifer
Replies
Can an outlet be grounded by running a piece of wire to fasten to the pipe? Or would that induce electrolysis in the pipe? I'll be installing a GFCI...would it need to be grounded?
It's legal to install a GFCI without a ground - there is another current thread on this subject.
If you are adding a ground, add a ground - don't tie it to the water pipe, tie it back to the service panel. A water pipe is not a good ground, for a lot of reasons. Best not to treat it as one.
I would rather use a GFCI with no ground than ground to a water pipe and create a false sense of safety.
Edited 2/16/2007 12:51 pm ET by woodturner9
Thanks...I installed a GFCI in the line...it will protect the outlet downstream.
Wish I knew more electrical...
I just use MC cable and metal boxes for all new work, and ground stuff to the box.Thanks again, Jen
Why would copper wire to copper pipe induce electrolysis? That is done all the time. I'd make sure there is a proper ground rod. The ground should go from the panel to the pipe (bonded around the meter) than to the ground rod. This main ground should be a continuous unbroken wire.
I figured attaching any type of electric conducter to a water pipe might do something strange! Didn't occur to me that if a device shorted out, it would electrify the pipes and any faucets attached! Gotta think these things through...
Today I looked at the water main out front of the house...there is some type of heavy duty wire coming through the wall, clamped onto the pipe.
Learn something new every day.Thanks, Jennifer
That wire attached in the meter vault is likely used as a tracer. I use them when running polyethylene service or anywhere an underground copper pipe is repaired with a section of non metalic pipe. An underground locator can clip his signal generator on the wire and locate a non metalic line pretty easily. Makes thier job easier and the guy digging a hole a little safer.
Dave
Bill will be along shortly to dispute everyone.:) But don't ground to a nearby waterline. You have potential to introduce electricity to the copper water line. That in turn lights up all your other household copper lines.
Same principal as a subpanel. That's the way I see it anyway.
I remember seeing wires attached to water pipes while demoing walls in an old house...at some point someone thought it was a good idea! (until enough folks got shocked touching a faucet that was carrying a charge from a short) They also used to think it was a good idea to put asbestos in everything, too! This is how we learn...
Take care, Jennifer
Yea everythings a good idea until someone dies. LOL Like you say. Progress.
Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?
Oh yay let's electrocute the plumber, not like ya'll would miss me anyways.
“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
I was looking out for ya buddy.
Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?
Glad some one is ;-)
I have never been zapped working on plumbing, but I did get tagged by 277 once walkin around a corner with a 20' stick of 1-1/4 & came in contact with flourescent light whip-------OUCH“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
Improperly wired subpanls is one of my big pet peeves. Especialy after watching a plumber get the crap knocked out of him one day. 277 has a unique tingle don't it. :)
Improperly wired subpanel--the big deal being to ground back to the main box, right? Take the grounding bolt, screw or whatever out of the subpanel ground/neutral busbar so your grounding goes back to the main box? For my own info..
Yep.
There are a couple of other requirements.First remove the bonding screw or strap as you mentioned.On some panels that will leave you with two separate busses. One isolated, the neutral bus. And the other one bolted to the metal case. That is the ground bus. On other panels you only end up with the isolated bus. In that case you need to add a ground bus kit.Then you need to run 4 wires back to the main panel; two hots, neutral, and ground.And your branch circuits you need to keep the grounds on the ground bus and neutral on the neutral bus..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
AllI am impressed.One minor clarificiation.In addition to either running a new grounded circuit (by far the best option if available) or using a GFCI there is 3rd way.You can run a separate ground wire (the only place that you are allowed to run wire that is not part of a cable or in raceway (conduit). And that ground wire has to a ground in a box that gets back to the ground bus in the main panel; or directly goes back to the ground bus; or conencts to someplace on the ground electrode system.A first 5ft of where a metalic water line enters the house is part of the ground electrode system if the exterior underground portion at least 10 ft long and is metallic.That is the same place that a ground electrode wiring is connected.BUT NO OTHER PLACE ON WATER PIPES.As mentioned a plumber can be lite up, other fixtures connected to the water pipes can become hot, or there just isn't a ground at all. The reason being that you never know where or when in the future some portion of the piping might be replaced with plastic..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Impressed with what?
Everybody got it right.IE, everybody agreed with me and I did not have to get out my club..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Well we wouldn't want to disagree with the final authority.
Think ya used enough dynamite there, Butch?
IIRC... in our last house, about ten years ago, my electrician grounded a couple of old ungrounded locations by running bare copper conductors to some nearby new grounded outlets he was putting in. All of it passed inspection, so I assume it was legit. I don't keep up much on NEC updates but it sounds like you're saying that could still be done.
Pipe went one way I went the other.
An electrician apprenti was demoing <sp> fixtures live----- only time in my life I hit someone on the job site.“A universal peace, it is to be feared, is in the catalogue of events, which will never exist but in the imaginations of visionary philosophers, or in the breasts of benevolent enthusiasts.” —James Madison
Oh, but we WOULD miss you!
Jen
In demoing a wall for a kitchen remodel, I found that an outlet by a copper water line to the sink isn't grounded (old Romex, not in real bad shape)
You have the wall open, so just run a new piece of romex back to wherever it is fed from, most likely another receptacle or something that has ground. If not just go up and over or down and under to take the new wire to the panel. If you can't do either, use the GFCI without the ground attached. That is safer than bonding to a copper water line that may or may not be continuos and unbroken to an earth ground.
Dave
Went up in the attic today and found some recent work that used a metal J box and flex cable. (wasn't real crowded) Ran a piece of MC and grounded it to the box, Voila...the tester said the outlet was grounded.
I'll just run the microwave, dishwasher, can lights, washer/dryer, toaster and hair dryer off that same circuit! (just kidding)
Although they do have all the kitchen lights and outlets on one circuit...even I know that's just wrong.
Thanks,
Jennifer
There was a time late 70's? when one or two code cyles of the NEC there was an exception to to the code that permitted installation of a grounding type 15 and 20 ampere receptacle in place of an existing non grounding 15/20 ampere receptacle and that the equipment grounding terminal could be connected to an existing metailic water pipe. This exception was subsequently removed. The introduction of non metalic water lines rendered this type of installation useless and dangerous. Carpenters and remodlers who enconter this type of wiring would do well to remove the bonding wire. One of the remedies in NFPA 70 406.3 D(3) a, b, or c. should be used. As others have pointed out most building permits will require that with the walls open an entirely new branch circuit with an equipment grounding conductor be installed along with the appropriate AFCI of GFCI protection as required by the occupancy. Also when connecting a GFCI receptacle to a non grounded circuit 406.3 D (3) (b) do not connect the grounding terminal of the GFCI to anything. Roger