Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 21, 2000 01:39am | #1

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   If the toilet never loosens and moves, the grout may not crack. This is, of course, very unlikely. I wonder why grout was used -- just handy at the time? The intent of sealing that area is to keep water out from under the toilet, and it doesn't seem that grout will do the trick. The guy who installed my bathroom tile floor groutted between the tile and everything -- tub, wall, etc. This isn't right, and the tub to tile grout has already cracked and been replaced with caulk. I guess some people aren't savvy to the movement variances of dissimilar materials.

2. 
   Drew_Kirk | Jan 22, 2000 09:33am | #2

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   If you bathroom is not over a concrete slab, my recommendation is to do neither...that's right, don't caulk or grout that toilet to your floor. If the wax seal fails, or if the toilet is not installed properly, you want to see the water coming out from under the toilet, so you can fix it. Caulk or grout your toilet to the floor, and any leakage stays in you floor until it rots.

   A customer of mine once called to have me fix his bathroom floor. It was getting a little soft around the toilet. When I unbolted that toilet and picked it up, the vinyl floor came right up with it, because they were silicone-caulked together, forming a water-tight seal. The masonite underlayment was so wet that it literally had worms living in it.

   The little bit of water that might get under your toilet from mopping is nothing compared to what will be trapped under there if your toilet leaks and you don't know it.

3. 
   Guest_ | Jan 23, 2000 11:57am | #3

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   If it is a remodel and everything is done right then you might get many years out of grout. Key to the success of grout against the tub is correct setting of the base materials. It is true that grout to wood is garanteed to fail at least a hairline but those joints can ususally be avoided. I would grout up against a tub every time. I know that it can last at least 10 years and that is longer than caulk will last.

   joe d

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 23, 2000 06:02pm | #4

   *Good points. But have you ever installed a toilet that didn't wobble? How do you "shim" the bowl to an uneven floor w/o grout or caulk?

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 24, 2000 03:53pm | #5

   * big H,

   I'd suggest plaster to install your toilet. There a three good reasons for doing it this way.

   It will help you level the bowl if your floor is not level.It will provide a "rock solid" connection without any wobble whatsoever.If the need should occur, you can easily remove the bowl.

   Careful tooling of the joint between the bowl and floor will allow for the application of your favorite chalk.

   Joseph Fusco View Image "Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 25, 2000 01:59am | #6

   *In order to avoid the "undetected trapped water" dilemma, I've always used caulk, but only seal the visible edges that don't face the wall. Leave the back edge/joint open, so that any leaking water should eventually run out there, alerting you to the problem.

4. 
   bigH_ | Jan 25, 2000 02:46am | #7

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   Thanks for all the good input. I'm going to leave the grout for now. The floor is stable, it's an old house and has done most of it's settling. There is a space in the back where the grout line is not connected so I'll use that as my water escape slot. Drew thanks for the visual of the worms, that's going to stay with me for a while, ha ha. Thanks again guys.

5. 
   Guest_ | Jan 25, 2000 04:40am | #8

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   big H,

   I think what's being missed by all the "floating" bowl connection recommendations is that by doing it that way you almost beg for the seal to break. If you don't provide a solid connection between the bowl, flange and floor, it will have no option but to "rock" or move when used. This will eventually break the seal. If you chose to do it this way I guess you would need this space for the water to come out. Good luck. . .

   Joseph Fusco

   View Image

   "Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth."

   Socrates

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 25, 2000 09:12pm | #9

   *Drew Kirk I'm confused. If the wax ring fails, how do you get water leaking to the floor? Unless you've got a serious pipe clog, isn't the purpose of the wax ring simply to prevent sewer gas seepage? Likewise, an improperly installed toilet is improperly installed. Period.Other than condensation or a crack in the bowl, the only water that should be seeing the underside of the base is water which enters from above the floor. In our bathroom that usually means mis-guided shower spray and splashed tub water. Both of which are highly regular events and the last place I want the water to go is under the toilet base where it will stay until the next soaking.If anything I think you should take reasonable steps to seal the base to the floor and drill a drain hole or two through the subfloor beneath. If you suddenly have a new water leakage problem you'll find out about it from the ceiling damage below, before it has a chance to sit and soak.Just my opinion.

1. 
   Guest_ | Jan 30, 2000 11:13am | #10

   *My 2 cents on toilets...Those two brass bolts will not stop a toilet from rocking if 1. the base of the bowl is not flat - a mold defect (it happens) or 2. the tilesetter left a high tile (that happens, too). You could get another bowl or pop and reset the tile or use, as Joe recommended, plaster, which will harden, stop the rock and be easily removable if necessary.Bowls are made in a mold like ceramic figures and there are holes in the bottom that are plugged (sometimes) after the excess slurry is poured out.Sometimes (personal experience here) the bowl will have a hidden internal defect and will leak into the plugged (or not) cavity and eventually out thru the hole. Be sure to check for leaks with multiple flushings or a period of usage before applying caulk.Yes, apply caulk. Have you ever looked at all that wet hair and dirt that is pushed around on a bathroom floor? It WILL gravitate to an unsealed gap under the bowl and be most unsightly and unsanitary and hard to clean.Nuff said.Comments? Ralph

6. 
   Drew_Kirk | Jan 31, 2000 09:19am | #11

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   Scott.....IMHO the wax ring is not installed to keep sewer gases out, but actually does form a seal to keep water going down the drain. Sometimes, where backerboard and tile have built the floor up higher than expected, it is necessary to use two stacked wax rings to make it water-proof.
   I have replaced probably six toilets that were leaking and rotting the floor. I have never looked closely at the wax ring to see why it failed, or whether it was poorly installed in the first place, simply because the bottom of a toilet that has been in service for ten years isn't all that appealing. I guess I need to develop a bit more detachment.
   After reading the other responses, next time I have a discriminating custimer I would like to attempt the plaster installation that Joe recommended. And I would leave weep holes at the back for water exit in case of leaks. That seems to be the ideal solution.

7. 
   Guest_ | Feb 02, 2000 07:43pm | #12

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   My professional, licensed plumber used shims to level the toilet after the floor was tiled. This should answer Joe's concern. He also recommended that I use caulk around the " splash area " of the toilet after I had re-checked the closet bolts a couple weeks after installation. He didn't caulk it himself, because he wanted any defects to be immediately noticeable during early use. He also said that some plumbers will caulk right away, presumably to avoid call backs from a leaky ring seal. He guessed that the resulting water damage wouldn't be evident soon enough to promote a call back. I guess I'm lucky to have this plumber.

1. 
   Guest_ | Feb 02, 2000 11:54pm | #14

   *Okay, I see the theoretical wisdom of leaving a gap in the caulk/plaster/grout whatever line in the back to indicate a leak, but to me, that leaves room for overflow water to enter, whether from the sink, the tub, or the toilet. I know, it's a small gap, but still possibly large enough to pass some sewer gas if there is a gap in the wax ring or otherwise. Probably a tradeoff, but to me if you're going to seal something, then seal it. Would you notice a small leak back there?

8. 
   bigH_ | Feb 02, 2000 11:54pm | #13

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   I just had a new toilet installed. The base was grouted to the tumbled marble and not caulked. Is this going to be a problem? The joint is tight for now but I can't imagine very flexible.