My client tells me that these balusters and railings are about 15-17 years old. They were properly designed with self-draining lower rails and constructed with galvanised fasteners. They were originally stained with Sikkens Rubbol solid stain, and a number of years later they were painted. We do not know if end-cut preservative was used by the original builder, but the rest of the work he did on this house is of good quality so I am assuming that it was.
What kind of wood rots out that badly that quickly, you ask?
They are constructed of CCA pressure-treated lumber.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice….
Replies
Holy cow!
What's up with that?
Must have been soaking wet 24/7!
Nope.
Bottom rails of those railing sets are rabbeted, not dadoed. The balusters are nailed sideways against the shoulder of the rabbet. Self-draining.
There is a fair amount of snow accumulation on that deck and the stairs, but snow isn't wet until it melts...and then it goes away.
That's just ordinary weathering: sun, rain, snow and back around again.
Don'cha luv PT wood now? Doesn't it give ya a warm, secure feeling that you will never have to worry about that deck rotting out on ya...?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I've seen it happen quicker than that, but like rez sez, it had to be soaking up wet from somewhere.
From what I could see, I'm not sure that it had been all that well maintained.
Dino,
I would almost have to bet that there is some other factor involved, or it was not really PT wood. You mentioned that they were 15-17 years old ... thats when the PT was still pretty decent stuff. I have a couple of flower boxes that I build almost 25 years ago out of left over CCA PT lumber from a deck I built and they still have hardly no rot in them even though they have been full of dirt and pretty wet all of the time.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
Yes it seems to me also that there is something else going on there. Its seems that a lot of that was concentrated in spots??
I just wonder if maybe the paint actually made things worse by holding moisture against the wood??? I've seen this with the osb type exterior siding where there was a good paint film on the surface but was soaking wet and rotten inside.
Edited 5/25/2009 8:27 pm ET by LIVEONSAWDUST
Obviously, the end-grain on the bottoms of the balusters is the most vulnerable to rot, and once it starts there it is easy for the rot to propagate into the bottom rails. In this case, the rot is somewhat spotty; out of 130 linear feet of railing, about 40 feet is completely gone and another 30 is too bad to bother trying to save.
In that this is part of a whole-house re-painting job, I am suggesting replacing all the railing sets as much less costly than scraping and repainting those sections that can be saved. The labour to do that would just kill him. It'll be cheaper and faster--and provide a better end result, too, which is even more important--to replace them all with new cedar, painted/stained before assembly and installation.
But the point of this is that the 'guaranteed' non-rot-ability of PT wood is not much more than a figure of speech. PT is not a 'magic bullet'.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
it was not really PT wood - or something like lightly treated alder
Think you have it.
My own outer deck (uncovered wet seattle) is untreated D.Fir , except for brush on penta, and it is 35 years old. Only a couple parts that were sapwood have had any rot.
I put in some fence posts a few years ago (cca treated for ground contact .40) and
within 4 years half of the posts rotted off at ground level. Took everything down'
and discovered that the other half were as good as the day they went in the ground.
My guess is that the ones that rotted were not treated properly to the .40 level.
This was the first, and only problem I experienced with cca lumber in my 20 years
of using it.
Of course a lot has to do with the quality of the wood before treatment, and whether it was dried enough to accept treatment. Lots of variation with fence posts in particular.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Did they make CCA 2x2's?
I could easily see that happening if someone ripped a bunch of 2x2's out of a treated 2x12 or such.
k
I've seen thousands of Treated 2x2's and I don't think I ever saw one that was straight. Most had the pith in them too, man that is soooo wrong.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
I don't remember if I could get cca 2x2's local or not. The yard doesn't stock any PT 2x2 now, that's for sure.
Might be an east coast west coast thing...
k
yeh..they've always stocked em here (2x2).
I'm also thinking it's possible the paint mighta had sumpin' to do with it. Maybe no primer and the moisture just sat 'tween the paint N the wood for it to rot so high up and not just at the bottoms.
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
That would seem to be a likely explanation.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
the home owners didn't exactly jump on that repair, did they?
I'm thinking aprt of the problem is they consider that as part of the house repaint job ... shows the level of maintenence they've been doing over said 15-17 years.
PT isn't a magic bullet ... I think most people know that. And a little maintenence goes a long way. My deck here is cheap PT. We've been here ... I think 13 yrs ... the former home owners hacked it together 2 or 3 years before they sold ... so we're looking at 15 yrs easy.
And it ain't gonna fall down tomorrow ... as a matter a fact ... we're planning on being outta here in 3 to 5 years .... and I'm planning on selling the house with that same deck attached.
and I can guarantee you the idgits that built my deck had no clue what sealing the end grain meant ....
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"CCA PT" doesn't mean anything until you tell us the level of treatment. I have seen stuff in the big box stores that wouldn't even claim .25 CCA.
.40 is about the minimum I would use for anything and if it was close to the ground I would want more like .80
The deck I have that is actually on the ground is 2.5 or 2.65 from a marine supply.
That last photo shows that the bottom rail is dadoed leaving about a 1/4" seat for water to sit until it is absorbed by the wood.
I see poor maintanance and poor design
I have railings built of PT from 20 years ago here that are still in fine fettle, but they were designed to drain, built right, and kept painted.
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Paul--
This may be a bit like the photo in the 'drip-edge' thread; the photo is fooling your eyes. I promise you that all the bottom rails are rabbetted, not dadoed. They are designed and built to drain. In that, this railing is better thought-out than many I have seen around here. I don't want to fault the original builder--even tho I don't know who he was--as by the general evidence, his work is far above average.
That said, I will concede the possibility that the bottom rails didn't drain fast enough, or that some of those rails twisted post-installation (PT is notorious for being twisty), and thus created localised holding basins against the shoulder of the rabbet. When I build the new railing sections, I will put a 15º slope on the floor of that rabbet and on the bottom of each baluster.
However, the sections on the stair are steep enough that they should have drained no matter how twisty the wood got...and those are the worst sections on the entire job.
And yes, there are lack-of-maintenance issues on this house. The owner is a poor lawyer (which is to say he's not in private practise but works for a city police department) who happens also to be the father of three university-age children--one of whom is in medical school. His maintenance and remod budget has, as a aresult, been somewhat compromised in recent years.
To others who doubt this was PT lumber, I also promise that it is. I do not have any idea of what concentration of poison those 2x2's contained, but they are indeed CCA. I had to trim a few dozen balusters two years ago when I rebuilt the railing around the new deck and flat EPDM roof I did on the other side of that house, and every crosscut clearly showed the telltale green stain of CCA penetrating the standard 3/64" into the wood. In fact, if you look at the 4x4's visible in a couple of the photos, where the paint and stain have completely disappeared, you can see the greenish hue to the wood.
Someone--I think if was Jeff Buck--mentioned that "most people know" PT isn't a magic bullet; on that point, I respectfully disagree. The great, great bulk of DIYers and 'way too many professionals have swallowed that marketing lie from the PT industry hook, line, and sinker.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 5/26/2009 12:30 pm ET by Dinosaur
"the standard 3/64" into the wood."
????????????????????????????
???????????????????????????????
??????????????????????????????
????????????????????????????What I get is penetrated 1/2" to 3/4" at least.maybe the source of your prejudice ( other than the toxic content) is just that you can't get real PT up there in Canadia for some reason
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Piffin,The SYP treated I get is green to the core, even 6x6. I have 4x4 post that are 29 years in the ground, No finish ever. Course they are in concrete. :)KK
The SYP treated I get is green to the core, even 6x6.
It is here as well. When I bought my current house it had a 10 year or so old deck on it. I tore it down and built a better deck, but re-used most of the lumber. Last summer I added to it. The "old" lumber still looks fine for the most part.http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
The green on my 6x6s grows faint at the core, about size of a2" dowel there, but is still green, just not as.
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Out west here, it's all PT Fir, and 3/64 is about right, even with the incisions. CCA had better penetration, though.
k
You really need the CCA number to know what you are buying. Most stuff at the big box is .40 or less, a marine supply can get you 2.65.
2.65 would last 40-50 years, wet all the time out of the salt water, maybe 20-25 in sub tropical salt water.
You've laid it out right. .60 is the minimum rated for burial, not just ground contact. I have pieces of my wood foundation (treated to .60) left over that have been lying about for 8 years on the ground outdoors. No rot, even on the cut end. Same for treated ply for the underground sheathing.
I did know it's different with fir out there. Maybe that is what Dino gets.Still though, I have used fir for railings too, and it does fine without treatment. The resins in fir naturally are resistant to growth of micro-organisms.
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Yeah, especially the older fir. I think the stuff I see in the 90-year old houses here is probably more decay resistant than most of the construction grade redwood available.
As far as what Dino gets, I have no idea. He's in "La Belle Province" wherever that is. Quebec, I guess? Seems like east Canada would get a lot of SYP, but maybe they get the in-house fir from B.C.
k
Seems like east Canada would get a lot of SYP, but maybe they get the in-house fir from B.C.
Actually, there is very little fir on the 'general' lumber market here; Doug-Fir from BC is available but usually only from specialty timber mills, and that stuff isn't treated.
About all of the untreated framing lumber here is stamped SPF, but 99% of that is spruce. There is lots of white pine available, but it's sold as a premium wood and no one would dream of p-treating it or using it for framing.
The 1x, 5/4, and 2x we get as PT is generally immature jack-pine from up north, except for the larger 2x sizes which are spruce. Jack pine as small as 8" butts are harvested; I see 'em coming down the highway from James Bay on trucks headed for a big local sawmill which has a contract with one of the large PT processing plants. It's twisty, gnarly, knotty wood--most of what I see is very poor quality.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
So your PY is a different source and supplier than ours then. I wonder if Canadian enviro regs keep it from being properly treated or if the processors there are just too cheap to do it well. Certainly no reason Spruce or pine can't have it penetrate far enough to do some good! If that's the best you can get, I would be biased against it too.meanwhile, as you try to educate readers about it, be aware that well over half the market for it is the eastern side of the US which gets SYP that is well treated to resist what you show us.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Maybe decent PT lumber is just a Florida thing but we can get SYP as good as you would use to make trusses or other structural stuff. Once you get away from the big box stores guys actually talk about CCA numbers. I avoid ACQ and buy mind from a marine contractor if this is not going to be where a kid can lick it.
I don't have a 'prejudice' against PT wood; I have an informed aversion to it.
I don't like what it does to my planet; I don't like the way it looks; I don't like the low quality of the wood used to make it; and I especially don't like the dangers it presents for children forced to play on it by idiots who build play structures and decks with it.
Most damning of all, it isn't necessary.
When I point out some of its many faults and failings--as I am trying to do with this thread--I am simply trying to do some 'consciousness-raising' among those people who haven't yet come to terms with how badly the PT industry has been bamboozling them with enticing half-truths and propaganda.
Posts which refer to the different levels of poison content in PT are not off the mark, in one sense. The more poison it starts with, the longer it will take for enough of it to leach out to make the wood a safe harbour for mould spores and cellulose-munching mites. But the ordinary, 'run-of-the-mill' PT that most Big-Box lumber suppliers sell is PT to all but those few professionals who know better. 3/64" penetration PT is what I routinely run into doing remods and repairs, because that is what is sold in 95% of the market.
If I wanted (horrors!) to buy some high-poison PT, I would probably have to drive 100 miles to find a supplier who could special-order it for me. As far as the great majority of builders is concerned, that effectively means the stuff doesn't exist. They will buy what their regular suppliers stock and call it done...as the original builder of this house almost certainly did.
As it happens, I may actually have an application for PT next week...altho I am looking hard for a better alternative. I've got a client whose cesspool cover collapsed last winter, and needs me to build her a new cover. The cesspool is built with dry-stacked concrete block and is in good shape. The old cover was made of creosoted hemlock 6x6's; it lasted 27 years that the present owner knows about; probably longer than that as the house itself was built in 1961.
I can't buy creosote anymore (the same weenies who approved CCA and ACQ have now banned it here) and I don't have enough left to do the job. So I figure I'll lay new 6x6s across the block walls, then drape a piece of EPDM scrap over it before we bury it.
That oughta outlast me....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I don't have a 'prejudice' against PT wood; I have an informed aversion to it.
Maybe you need more information. This is an article (by Taunton, of all things) on using PT wood in garden beds. The pertinent parts are how far the inorganic arsenic travels in soil, how much background arsenic you get naturally, and the relative danger of an expected amount or arsenic ingestion compared to, say, heterocyclic amines from BBQ or osteoporosis from drinking milk. (OK, those examples are from my own repertoire, but i can defend them easily against PT wood, except in the case of feeding PT sawdust to kids.)
If you want to save the planet, working at a ski resort using electricity to haul specially flown-in tourist butt up the hill so they can slide down is an unlikely contribution.
If you want to save the planet, working at a ski resort using electricity to haul specially flown-in tourist butt up the hill so they can slide down is an unlikely contribution.
Bad girl, you make me get snot on my keyboard.........
Art--I have long since given up reading or responding to her vicious and hypocritical bleating, but since you found that nasty comment of hers amusing enough to cut and paste, I couldn't help but see it.
I am not going to engage in useless argument with She Who Is Never Wrong, but I thought it might be appropriate to point out to the rest of you that she had her own 'tourist butt' flown up here a few years back.
Funny how she only objects to other people's butts.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
No intent to relate that reply with you, but as my favorite camping area (Corral Pass) when the kids were teens was 2 mi. south of Crystal Mt. ski area (near Mt Ranier). Camping area accessible only by an arduous 3 hour hike in snow, found it funny when tninking back on seeing skiers. Always got passed by BMWs on the 2 lane 410 hwy to the area by yuppies. Plus, now I got a 40 YO multimillionarie son (usoft $$) that goes skiing quite often in various places at (to my frugal outlook) extravagant expense.
Only once did I ever see anyone else hike in to Corral Pass in February, and those folks used a snowmobile most of the way.
Edit - not to offend anyone, but just to add unintentional equal insult time <G>, the only pix I saw that sg posted it looks like she may have a big one too??
EDIT2 -- I have never been on a pair of skis in my life, but have slid downhill at Snoqualmie Pass with my butt in an innertube..........
Edit 3 technical -- IMO that railing was not pressure treated correctly, or just given a 'swipe' for marketing purposes. I just got around to uncovering one of my 20 YO wood piles as the coverings were starting to rot (multiple layers of cheap plywood). One cover area had a hole in it, underneath was stacked some 20 ft 2x4s which were completly rotted thru (and eaten by ants) - the ants had to crawl past some 0.8 trated 4x4s which I found totally water logged but with no spot of decay or ant damage. I dearly hated to see those 20 ft 2x4s damaged -- told me I need to get off my lazy butt and recover stacks more often, or build a few more sheds?
Edited 5/27/2009 2:46 pm ET by junkhound
Edited 5/27/2009 2:47 pm ET by junkhound
Edited 5/27/2009 2:52 pm ET by junkhound
<<the only pix I saw that sg posted it looks like she may have a big one too??>>True. Unlike Sir Speedo, i am not a perfect åss.
Congratulations!
Splintergroupie receives the TimMooney 'Now That's Funny Right There!' Award.
Saaalute!View ImageView Image Intimidation is the sincerest form of battery
yer right.
if he wants to save the planet he should oughta sell hunks of wood at outdoor art shows and work PT at an animal clinic.
I think I read that's the road to sainthood ... at least the road to self righteousness.
appearantly.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I'm a 40+ year old industrial organic chemist. The worst chemical burns I've ever seen were creosote burns on the arms of a friend back in high school. He was working at a local wood window manufacturer and he was carrying some timbers around - wearing gloves, but a short sleeve shirt. Two days later he lost almost half the skin between his wrists and shoulders. Creosote may or may not be a potent carcinogen, but it's definitely a nasty irritant. Decay always wins. It's really just a matter of determining how many sacrifices you're willing to make in the fight. "And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all." - Edgar Allan Poe
Two days later he lost almost half the skin between his wrists and shoulders. Creosote may or may not be a potent carcinogen, but it's definitely a nasty irritant.
Ouch.
Direct, prolonged skin contact with any toxic substance isn't a good thing, but the severity of the irritation varies from person to person. I know there are a number of people here on BT who have suffered quite severe reactions from handling ACQ barehanded. I have gotten nasty infections in CCA splinter wounds a time or two.
But Mother Nature herself isn't harmless, either: there is no guarantee that a 'natural' or organic poison won't nail ya just as badly as some witches' brew stirred up in a chem lab.
Poison ivy and other similar plants are cases in point. I don't seem to be susceptible to those, but common naptha (a refined hydrocarbon) leaking out of my Zippo through my pants pocket can make me wish I'd been bright enough not to overfill the damned thing. But my carelessness is no reason to ban naptha.
The principal danger with PT is that it is too new for us to really know all its dangers. Creosote has been in use for over a hundred years; by now, we have a pretty good idea of how well it performs and what it can and can't do to us. OTOH, CCA was on the market for less than its initial 40-year guarantee period; and ACQ is only about 5 or so years old. What do we really know about their efficacy and health effects?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 5/27/2009 2:46 pm ET by Dinosaur
The principal danger with PT is that it is too new for us to really know all its dangers. Creosote has been in use for over a hundred hears; by now, we have a pretty good idea of how well it performs and what it can and can't do to us. OTOH, CCA was on the market for less than its initial 40-year guarantee period; and ACQ is only about 5 or so years old. What do we really know about their efficacy and health effects?----We actually have a much greater basis for understanding CCA and ACQ than something like creosote. Creosote contains hundreds of closely related organic compounds, with significant variation from batch to batch. Testing and analyzing the effects of each one would be daunting, and testing in aggregate confusing. So instead, we rely on "experience". Unfortunately, that experience is tainted by all of the environmental factors you can't control without enormous sample sizes. For example, if someone in your study group develops cancer after 20 years at the creosote factory, was it creosote? Maybe it was the smoking? Or maybe it was the stress of a miserable home life? The diesel work on the side? The list never stops... ACQ and CCA, on the other hand, at least offer a smaller playing field. And we actually have some pretty detailed understanding of individual metal exposures and even a decent understanding of additive effects. For the most part, we've been ingesting arsenic, chromium and copper since we crawled up out of the primordial soup. That's not to say it's safe, it's just that you're less likely to be surprised by some weird additive effects that only appear after years in the field. There's probably 10 times the number of exotic additives on your average glossy magazine than there is in treated lumber. And don't even start looking up the components in the averaging caulking or glue.... or you'll start building fern huts held together with rainwater...The hard part in all of this is that "safety" is determined in aggregate, yet "health" is defined by an individual. I wouldn't care if 99.999% of humanity found something safe, if it was going to make me swell up and die! No arguments about mother nature - if you're putting together a list of poisons, it's hard to beat botulism, brevetoxin and uranium. The funny thing is, if you look at the MSDS for a treated lumber product, they're now required to list a new major hazard: wood dust, a known carcinogen.Getting back to the matter at hand, I still don't understand the bottom rail construction? The next to the last picture (taken from below the bottom rail) seems to clearly show the bottom of the lower rail as an unbroken plane. In fact, you can see a knot (just under the 3rd baluster from the left) that runs more than halfway across the board. So, it sure looks to me like the balusters are sitting in little troughs of water... Even primed and painted WRC, locust, redwood, etc.. is going to decay fast under those conditions.-t
As I'm on dial-up service, I'm sure you'll pardon me for not scrolling back to the head of this thread to look at that pic again. But the bottom of the lower rails is supposed to be flat; it's the top of them that was rabbeted to hold the balusters in plane while still allowing rain water to drain away.
In one of those shots it does look like the top of the bottom rail is dead flat...but that's because the shoulder of the rabbet has all rotted away. It's like that in a few spots.
BTW, it's cool that you're getting involved in this discussion with your deeper-than-average knowledge of industrial chemistry. And you are correct that determining the actual cause of any specific person's cancer is almost impossible, despite what a lotta lawyers tell ya. It's always a guessing game.
It's also true that creosote (coal-tar oil, for those who don't know) will necessarily vary slightly in composition from batch to batch unlike synthetic poisons manufactured under factory-controlled conditions. But compiled statistics can be very indicative of trends when the sample size is great enough. And the length of time a product has been in general use has a definite impact on the amount of data available regarding it's behaviour in the real world.
One of the problems with the short-term risk analyses of products like CCA and ACQ is that there are virtually no performance data available when the product is first put on the market. Lab testing provides limited information that must be qualified by the conditions of the test...which can never fully match real-world performance. A lot of the so-called 'data' are the results of 'accelerated field tests' which comprise assumptions that may or may not prove to be valid later on. Sadly, assumption-based computer modeling has become the standard method of industrial safety testing nonetheless, because most people don't understand the potentially fatal flaws inherent in that process.
OTOH, if I had the resources available to the govt. weenies responsible for banning creosote (for example), I do not doubt for an instant I could compile enough historical data to describe its attendant hazards or lack thereof, and to do so in a pretty clear and unequivocal way. Unfortunately, those same weenies always seem to be motivated more by political considerations than scientific ones. And it's way too easy to lie with statistics, as we all know....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 5/27/2009 4:29 pm ET by Dinosaur
i'm one who has had both ACQ blisters and pitch burns from creosote.I wouldn't care to entertain either of them again. Would have a hard time choosing if I had to have one or the other, FWIW.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I must have acclimated to creosote when I was a kid--always playing on the railroad tracks. To this day, the smell of creosote brings back memories of me and my bud Georgie putting pennies and lumps of coal on the tracks and then hiding behind the freight shed at the station to watch the train run over them....
ACQ I have stayed away from entirely, except where I encounter it already in place on a job. Ever since you warned me about what it did to your skin, I won't even touch it unless I'm gloved.
I figger you're at least as tough as me....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"I figger you're at least as tough as me...."Maybe tougher.Splintie doesn't get under my skin as bad;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Jeff, I didn't realize they had Physical Therapists at pet clinics. Maybe I could do that when I retire. My dog loves the way i rub her belly.
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I like both you and Dino and both of you are about as opinionated as I am, so take thisFWIW...I love your wit, and words, but while that tidbit was somewhat amusing, it was a low blow.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I repent. Presenting science to the over-emotional was unconscionable.
You might want to deepen your information well, I've never seen that happen to CCA or ACQ... and I live in the land of pressure treatment. I'm with the folks saying there's something else going on. I've seen, and made, painted railings out of untreated syp, no end treatment, properly maintained and no rot.I'd like to see some clearer pics of that water shedding detail, if you can get some.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
I'd like to see some clearer pics of that water shedding detail, if you can get some.
I'll be starting a re-roof on that same house on Monday morning, so if I remember I'll snap a couple of close ups. But it ain't complicated; the bottom rails are 2x4s and the top surface of each has a 1/2"-deep X 2.5"-wide rabbet cut in it. The balusters are set on the floor of that rabbet, and toe-nailed in place up against that half-inch shoulder.
(The upper rails are dadod underneath, of course, but that's not where the problem is.)
I had a discussion with the HO last night about replacing these railings, and there is a domestic argument between Mr. & Mrs. HO as to what the new ones should look like. She likes the existing baluster spacing 3/x/3/x pattern; he wants regular spacing. I'm staying outta that, LOL, but might offer them a third design so they can each save face with respect to the other.
Whatever they decide, I'll bevel the rabbet on the bottom rails (and the foot of each baluster) 10-15º so it can't help but drain even if the 2x stock twists somewhat over the years.
But the big news flash is from Mrs. HO: The cause of all that damage to the balusters, she says, isn't rot!
It's bluejays.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
HmmmI replaced a window last summer that had the sill and part of side frame destroyed by woodpeckers.But moisture and insects were already present, tantalizing them with promise of a meal for their efforts.And that was caused by poor maintanance.one thing I have had in mind thru this thread is wondering how they deal with snow in winter.Some people clean it off, and other just kick it aside so it piles and freezes around the railings. I've been seeing a lot of rot of all kinds in house trim where snow drifts in and piles against to keep things damp longer. I am also recalling one rail where roof runoff was a constant drip on a short 2' length at a couple steps.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That deck is shoveled every week-end when the family comes up from town to ski. There's enough space under the bottom rail to shove the snow right off the deck, but I know from experience that doesn't always happen. It's certainly possible some sections could get buried in accumulated snow.
But snow isn't wet till it melts, and in the normal course of events, that kind of accumulation doesn't take but a few days of spring temps to simply vanish.
And yes, I did point out that the birds don't eat wood but only peck at insect-infested wood. And that maintenance hadn't really been kept up with...which point they didn't argue.
In any event, I just got back from a meeting with the clients, and the decision has been taken to replace the railings completely. I am now designing new railing sets that will go with the Victorian-style gingerbread Mrs HO wants added to the house in the course of this face-lift. Whatever final form they decide on, the railing sets will be agressively self-draining; every individual element will be primed and painted on all six sides before assembly; they'll be assembled with polyurethane glue (to seal the end grain) and galvanised nails; and they won't need to be made of PT.
Photos to follow in weeks to come....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Blue jays?
The baseball team? They did that? Who'da thunk it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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Yeah, I always thought it was the Sox who were a bunch o' peckers....
Turns out to be a verrrrrry good thing the HOs decided to go for new railings. During the RTD of the shingles today, the crane truck was hoisting a skid with 50 packs of three-tabs on it up and over the deck and railing...and something let go. This job is the other side of a privately built bridge over a creek, and the yard had to send in the smaller truck, which is a 1980-something International with an even older Hajib on it. Driver said later it leaks like a piece of cheese-cloth but they hardly ever use it anymore so nobody cares....
Skid came down relatively slowly but nothing the operator did could stop it. He finally managed to traverse it while it was still sinking...so it only took out two sections of railing.
Bit scarey for a mo' there, however....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
there ya go ... a second career.
plus ... you'll be so much farther ahead in the saving the planet race ...
imagine the threads U could start and people you could chastise then!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I'll have the mutt start me on an accelerated training program then
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Splintie doesn't get under my skin as bad
She doesn't get under my skin at all. She's not that important.
If I feel like having a good argument, I'll have it with someone whose idea of a snappy rejoinder doesn't consist of childish personal insults. So, I just ignore her.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I get under your skin plenty deep, and it's ludicrous to protest you don't read my posts when "unread" no longer appears next to your name. "Childish" is when you don't have the balls to say what you want to say to me personally, but use a third party to unload what's on your mind or in your pants. In any case, the article i linked about PT wood and arsenic is good reading. Read it over a couple of cigarettes and find out why you shouldn't burn PT wood, but why it's not a significant source of groundwater contamination. (Inorganic arsenic is available in cigarette smoke at the rate of 0.8 - 2.4 micrograms per pack, btw.)
To be fair, so far as I can tell the "unread" flag goes away as soon as the referee opens the string of messages containing the flagged one, even if the poster is on ignore.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I'll check that. The rest of the post stands.