Here’s the deal.
I had a mtg w/ Arch and Client. The usual – price too high, we have to trim the scope of work, how can you help us. The mtg went very well. Smiles everywhere, casual conversation, explaination of how and why things are done ie: construction methods and sequence, allowances, Change Orders, and Addendum To Contract (something I am just beginning to use, thanx Breaktime).
Things went kinda sour though, when the Arch stated, to confirm, that I provide the standard one yr guarrentee/ warranty on my work. I said of course, I stand by all my work. Then she, in order to further confirm, stated that if a light switch (read dimmer – electronic) burns out I will replace it, at no cost to the Client, any time during the first year. I said, No. My warranty is on my WORK and that it is done properly. If Lutron warranties the dimmer, I will pass that warranty along. Otherwise I will charge for the dimmer – at cost – and install it at no cost.
Note: I just got off the phone with Lutron and they DO warranty their dimmers for a period of one year from the date of installation for contractors and one yr from purchase date for DYI’s.
I think this is common sence. She said she has done a number of projects of varying scale and has never had this response, adding that the reason the GC purchases the fixtures is to provide the warranty. I responded that the GC provides the fixtures in order to ensure they arrive to the site at the appropriate time, without damage, are complete and are compatable with other related fixtures and installation methods.
We are probably splitting hairs but this is becoming a sticking point. I don’t think I’ll lose the job but it does cast a cloud over the trust issue.
At the risk of beating a dead horse here are a few examples of what I WILL guarrantee at no cost to the Client:
Tile(s), which I installed, crack in third month. Replace tile(s) using overage from original installation.
Crown moulding twists off wall. Replace moulding, caulk and paint. AUGH! This has never happened.
Cabinet drawer slides break. If they were undersized during fabrication, I’ll replace the slides with stronger. If the kids used the drawer as a step (and the Client is straight with me) I’ll replace it and charge for the new slide. I have bartered this type of repair ie: done it on my lunch hour and the Client/ Housekeeper makes me a great lunch.
Paint blisters/ peels. I’ll scrape/ sand, skim, prime and paint. (Sh-t happens).
Brand X, high end, range heat calibration is off. I’ll deal with the Service Co and arrange repair. Cost of repair is usually covered by manufacturer’s warranty. If not, the Client pays. My services,ie: scheduling appt(s), providing site protection, being on site while service is performed, or unit is replaced, though are at no charge.
Door twists or warps – I curse the like a MF’r and replace it, unless it’s a 1 3/8″ door. Then I say “I told you so.”
What do you all think?
Edited 1/16/2003 11:52:10 AM ET by Frankie
Replies
I do think you are splitting hairs over something as small as the light switch. Anytime I get called back on somewthing like that, the HO is always impressed with my responce and it leads to reference or estimates for other work with them or their friends or neighbors. It's cheap advertising because it makes the point obviously that they can depend on me. I also encourages me to make sure that I am using the best products.
If they buy the stuff, it is their problem. I went to a house this AM ( I rebuilt it all) where I had installed a Sears Garage Door openner that they bought against my recommendations. It was a pain to install and there have been electronics problems since then with it. They get to pay again for my time and eventually for a new unit, if my guess is right.
But here's a bigger one for you - If you built it and you recommended and choose zxy brand shingles for the roof and your people installed them and then the surface boils off fourteen months later, who is responsible? It might have to do with the insulation/ventilation design which you didn't do - the archy detailed it. It might be from poor manufacturing but you recommended that brand and your people - it may be argued - had something to do with it fromn the way they handled and stored the product. Your one year warrantee is up but do you want them speaking poorly about you in that neighborhood? The manufacturer should, in my opinion, be at bat on this but you are the one people see and talk to.
I limit my liabilities like this in the writing but will generally go the second mile in practice - have to roll with the punches. And learn each step of the way.
IMO, the reason for the one year standard is that it can take that long for a new HO to discover if there are problems with a house in going trough an entire cycle of seasonal changes.
My biggest concern with warrantees is when you have an archy specing details that you know won't work satisfactorily. You can walk away from the job if it is bad enough but more often I am already involved in demo before some details are brought up. Then it can become a wrestling match or an extended negotiation. When I don't get my way on things I have concerns about, I write a memo that requires that they sign off on it as understanding what I am recommending and that they all accept any consequences if it should fail to satisfy or fail to perform.
I could give an example of such if need be but I fear I have written too much already this post.
Excellence is its own reward!
We are splitting hairs and I WILL warranty as much as I could. You are correct. Doing a QUICK- FIX - even after the year is up is one of the best advertising a contractor can do, especially if a referal is just on the horizon.
My issue began with the dimmers - 43 in all at $45-$87 (my cost) each! I have had dimmer switches burnout/ fail within 3 mos of installation and bought new ones at my own expense. Lutron would NOT take them back under any circumstance. I tried. So, now I'm thinking if they don't why should I? Now however, they say they do warranty their dimmers for one year and I got the rep.'s name in my file. Regardless, I am now trying to create a Company Policy. What responsibity/ liabity do/ can/ should I take on?
As for your roofing question: It seems as though something else caused your installation to fail.
1) If you executed the Arch's design to a T and the Arch does not have a disclaimer stating all work must be approved by Contractor (what a wimpy cop-out) then it's the Arch liability. That's why THEY have ins. Now, trying to get them to accept (read pay) for the f-up is another job.
2) If the problem was pre-existing and there was no way for you to tell it existed, you're off the hook. I would then tell the client that I would repair the underlying problem at the standard price, and then install a new roof at some sort of a discount, maybe.
3) If you wanted to do a, b, and c, but the Client/ Arch only wanted (to pay for) a and c, then be sure to get a release letter from them to document what you recommended it and that they refused. Kinda like waiving the insurance when you rent a car.
One of the things that I am constantly reminded of in this type of work is that the paper work (pushing) is the most important part of the job.
For me that roofing scenario was a rhetorical question but I'm sure it's out there someplace. It's a big expense. Roofing compnay I worked for in Texas replaced quite a few for free when shingles failed to seal down. Most were installed in colder weather and dust storms blew dust under shingles to prevent sticking of sealdown strip. They had enough clout, being a big distributor, to get GAF to help with some of the cost.
I see your point when it comes to that many switches and electronics are the area most prone to failure nowadays. Auto manufacturers don't give as good a warrantee on electronics as on mechanical systms either. I guess your policy needs to be, "We will stand by to render assistance in replacement of items covered by manufacturers warrantees in the following manner..."
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Back to the light dimmers.
If I supply them, they get marked up 100% minimum. That always covers it, whether it's 1, 2 or 40.
If the client doesn't want the mark-up, (provide the dimmers themselves) then they don't get a product OR installation warranty. End of story.
The Architect is only trying top create a no fault product for their client. You have the option and the obligation to provide, at 100% markup, products that will protect you, the client and the "wisdom" of the Architect.
Your meetings with clients / architects sure seem to be kinda tense, huh?
TENSE - I'm NOT TENSE!!!!!#%$&*#,#$!!!! Well, sometimes, but I prefer to think of it as passionate.
You all only hear of the ones I have problems with. The ones that go smooooothly are basically boring. I use this forum not to praise Frankie but to improve him.
Most in this biz are trying to get someone else to take on their liability. I used to be quite willing to take everything on because I was very confident in my Subs and my abilities. But then I realized that a) I wasn't making any money, b) I was doing the Arch's job and c)I was the poor guy, the bad guy and the f-up. Now I don't want anyone elses responsibility but am not quite sure where to draw the line. I am always checking. Kinda like trying to build a better mouse trap. I'm always thinking "Is there a better way?"
BTW. I just got off the phone w/ the Arch and she apologized for fixating on such a small thing but was surprised at my comment, being out of character. Everything is fine. I will warranty my work and facilitate in acheiving the warranty of the manufacturers.
I wish I could command a 100% markup. Many times the Arch has spoken with a supplier and gotten a price and specified that is my price/ allowance. I can add something to my installation number but not 100% of the fixture cost. Wouldn't that be nice.
Edited 1/16/2003 5:49:08 PM ET by Frankie
I didn't mentiuon it because i assumed it from what I know of you. You absolutely have to get a reasonable markup. Let me define what I mean by that.
If three percent of shingle jobs have some failure, that is your base markup.
If fifteen percent of dimensional lumber warps, you figure that waste markup.
If half of all electrical devices fail, you add a minimum of fifty percent base markup.
BEFORE you add overhead etc and then regular 'profit' to determine your charge price. That way you are covered and tense meetings are gone into history. If the Q comes up, "why do you charge this much?" You can quantify your answer. .
Excellence is its own reward!
Well, it can be nice...........
If you put it as an "either-or".......Either we use my mark-up method to guarrantee service or you, the client, can order, pay for, deliver on time and assume all liability for YOUR product.
Try it. Assert this as policy.
You'd be surprised how many of your clients will accept YOUR terms. Most recognize it as good business. All other businesses mark-up componants for the very same reason. Cars, Defense contractors, tool makers, groceries, everything gets mark-up to allow a provider to stand behind their product. All warranty work is paid for up front, as part of the total price. And since our customers know the "wholesale" price of our components, we, unlike the grocer, have to take a second and explain economics 101.
I've found it's easier to expain economics 101 briefly and elaborate on the CHOICE I'm offering the client IF they object to a standard, everyday mark-up.
And for those who wish to provide fixtures with no warranty, this also is good business. It begets additional business for you.....you know, "While your here".........