Replies

1. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Jun 01, 2006 04:33pm | #1

   65' lengths are easily handled by two guys. Three or four guys would be better if your inexperienced.

   I'd have some concern about expansion and contraction on a 65' run.

   blue

    

1. 
   serviceblocks | Jun 01, 2006 04:39pm | #2

   Nice thoughts on expansion & contraction....That would explain why another contactor was bidding 6 downpipes instead of 4. I guess he was trying to break up the span and pitch the gutter in both directions.

2. 
   woodway | Jun 01, 2006 06:46pm | #3

   I have one gripe regarding gutter installation and installers: Don't, under any circumstance, nail or drive a spike through the back side of the gutter into the end of the rafter tails!! I REPEAT NEVER - EVER DO THAT!!!

   You do that on my job and your gone right then and there.

1. 
   Lansdown | Jun 01, 2006 07:45pm | #4

   It's also nice when they pitch them towards the leader, not the other way.

1. 
   woodway | Jun 01, 2006 09:50pm | #6

   pitch would be nice but then common sense sometimes escapes with how professional the installer wants, or doesn't care, to be.

2. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Jun 01, 2006 07:51pm | #5

   Why are you opposed to nailing the gutters up? Are you related to xxxpaulxxx and prefer screws?

   blue 

1. 
   woodway | Jun 01, 2006 09:54pm | #7

   Your baiting me, right? I know you know the wrong and right way to do the do! You can screw or nail all you wish, just not through the back of the gutter and into the end of the tail. ie. Don't screw the tail!!!We're drifting here and my mind is beginning to get off track.

1. 
   seeyou | Jun 01, 2006 11:35pm | #8

   What in the hell are you babbleing about? 

   Can I get that Little Debbie snack cracker out from under the heel of your pointy boot?..

   http://grantlogan.net/

2. 
   blue_eyed_devil | Jun 02, 2006 02:09am | #11

   I'm not baiting you at all.

   I've put a couple of gutters up in my days, not many, but everyone has a nail through the back of the gutter. The thing wouldn't stay up if it didn't have one.

   We don't have exposed tails here, so every nail hits either the subfascia, or just a fascia, depending on the neighborhood.

   Consider me fired.

   blue 

1. 
   woodway | Jun 02, 2006 08:12pm | #22

   There are two types of gutter hangers that don't require drilling or punching a hole in the back side of the gutter; brackets that are installed into the ends of the rafters, before the gutter is installed, and hangers straps that are installed under the roofing itself and extend out over the edge of the roof to allow for support the hanger. The worst kind of hangers to use are the spike and ferrule hanger, where the spike pierces both the front and back of the gutter, and the kind that are screwed or driven just through the back of the gutter. I've seen an equal amount of damage cause just by the use of single 8 to 10D nails driven through the back of the gutter too. Some background might be useful here too. To fill in for those times when things are slow, I work for home inspection service that identifies and looks for termite or wood destroying pests on homes that are going onto the real estate market. When they find rotten rafter tails, they call me and I repair the rotten ends at the homeowners expense, usually at the close of escrow. In the last three years I've probably repaired about a 100 rafter tails and every one of them (100%) have rotted out exactly where the nail, spike or screw pierces the back of the gutter and into the rafter tail. When there's a fascia board in place, the fascia is effected too. I should also point out that not every penetration of the gutter results in rotting of the wood behind the gutter, but... EVERY one of the rotten rafters found is caused by the method used to apply the hanger.When you mount the hidden hanger and punch that hole in the backside of the gutter, you create a small hole for water to enter the end of the rafter or fascia board. That water remains trapped immediately behind the gutter where the nail, gutter and rafter tail meet for the entire rainy season and probably for a week or two after the rains have stopped. It's a small area where there's no way for the moisture to dry out and it just sits there and gets worse as time passes. In 10 to 15 years, the end of the rafter breaks down and has to be replaced. Spikes or nails seem to be the worst offenders and I have a feeling that may be because they work their way loose as the wood dries out over the summer and then leaks even more the following winter. When I first cut the tail off and look at it, I find the nail or screw is now completely supported by the gutter itself and there's nothing left of the wood surrounding the area of the nail/screw first entered the wood. It looks just like a rotten apple core with the center of the rafter tail is completely eaten away. When it's gotten to that point, even the biggest screw or nail isn't going to support the gutter alone much less the extreme snow loads you guys see in the north east.

2. 
   Sphere | Jun 02, 2006 08:29pm | #25

   You have never seen a circle hanger have you?

   On therory, they deploy a swing action to dump the contents.

   What rot or stuff you saw was reaction to Al spikes in the WOOD, excaberated by the tannins and alkyds present in the conductivity of water.

   A proper gutter don't hold volumes of water for that to occur.

   Yer outta yer Forte'

   BTW, I too am a member of the handymans club, and  Licensed Home Inspector in 3 states.

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   There is no cure for stupid. R. White.

3. 
   Sphere | Jun 02, 2006 08:43pm | #26

   Hey woody, here is the circle hanger

   The tab is for holding it while the 4 screws are driven, the line holes are for 1/8th per foot of slope...the little brass screws are for dropping when you are up 30 or 40' an yer hands are numb and cold simultaneously and you can't wear gloves.

   View Image

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   There is no cure for stupid. R. White.

   
4. 
   seeyou | Jun 03, 2006 12:59am | #28

   He's talking Ogee gutter, you're talking half round. 

   Can I get that Little Debbie snack cracker out from under the heel of your pointy boot?..

   http://grantlogan.net/

3. 
   Shep | Jun 02, 2006 03:48am | #12

   Maybe that works in Ca., but here in NJ, if we didn't nail into the rafter tails-

   well, with the first snow load, they'd be coming right off.

   But most of the gutter guys I know now use the hidden hangers with screws into the fascia.

1. 
   DaveRicheson | Jun 02, 2006 01:24pm | #14

   Hidden hangers with screws into rafter tails or sub facia here.

   Set a couple of hangers to hold a long length up , and then go to the middle of the run and set it as high as possible. Work from the middle toward each end letting the gutter fall just enough to keep the back from wrinkling.

   65' run of straight gutter. I would up it to 6", and put leads on both ends. That is a lot of roof shedding water above it.

    

   Dave

2. 
   DanH | Jun 02, 2006 06:23pm | #16

   Odd that the gutters stay on in Minnesota. Must be the quality of the nails.
   If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

3. 
   Shep | Jun 03, 2006 02:03am | #29

   I know there's regional differences in construction.

   Around here, the 1x fascia is generally nailed right into the rafter tails, without a subfascia.

   So if the gutter nails don't hit a rafter tail, all that weight is just hanging off a 3/4" piece of pine. Not a great long-term technique.

   It's not that we get a lot of snow; it's that the snow we do get tends to be very wet and heavy, and can rip a gutter right off a house.

4. 
   DanH | Jun 03, 2006 03:27am | #31

   Same here, only apparently folks know how to hit the rafter tails.I've never seen a gutter ripped off, except maybe on a house that was half falling down to begin with. Have seen gutters ballooned out from ice occasionally, and plenty of ice dams and the like.

   If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison

4. 
   Sphere | Jun 02, 2006 06:01am | #13

   Crack will mind break, often whore,lots cost,gutter find oneself...ebay camp with ahappy geisha...

   Tweem igpay and latinay, and polynesian pshyncopthathic(sic) regeneration of common used phrases...it looks like fun.

   Guys like you...just bought me a TV.

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   There is no cure for stupid. R. White.

1. 
   woodway | Jun 02, 2006 06:18pm | #15

   OK""

2. 
   Sphere | Jun 02, 2006 07:25pm | #17

   I get paid to hang gutter. Copper, Alum..what have you. 5'', 6'', Kstyle and half round.

   I'd GLADLY show you a picture of a half round hanger shank and circle with the adjustable holes and 10/32 nuts and bolts (brass) and the attendant clips that must be cinched w/ channel locks.

   If you wanted to spend a day hanging gutter on a Fascia that is not either (a) backed up with a sub, or (B) solidly nailed/screwed to a tail(s)...you will be back to do it again. Period.

   Water is heavy...a clogged drop will overflow a 6'' gutter and at guess, a foot of gutter that size carries 31.5 lbs ( 1/2 CuFt@ 62 lbs)

   So, a 20' run would be near 600lbs...yer trim nailed 1x6 fascia will fail catastrophecally and sag therefore expounding the problem.

   Cold eaves and Ice build up will double the weight I have used as an example...so lacking a sound subfascia, or a rafter tail is asking for a call back....or returning to salvage what damage you have caused.

   Often overlooked, gutters can contribute to a LOT of problems, and keep me employed.

   If everyone would just keep em cleaned out yearly,...

    

   Edit to add:

   We strap the downspouts on the higher elevations well enough to be used as fire escape...if needed. See if Gutter Helmet or similar Co's do THAT.

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   There is no cure for stupid. R. White.

   Edited 6/2/2006 12:33 pm ET by Sphere

3. 
   DaveRicheson | Jun 02, 2006 07:36pm | #18

   Nice

4. 
   Sphere | Jun 02, 2006 07:42pm | #19

   Thanks.

   You hook up w/ Gman?

   Need work done, it'll probly be me.

   Rained out today..= bored. ( and tired).

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   There is no cure for stupid. R. White.

5. 
   DaveRicheson | Jun 02, 2006 08:08pm | #21

   Haven't yet.

   Don't want to bother him untill I get out of the mud.

   Tired of pumping out footers.

   I think I need gutters on this hillside!

    

   Dave

6. 
   Sphere | Jun 02, 2006 08:21pm | #24

   Same here.

   Just give a ringy dingy to him or me, we might get ya on the list for 2009.  ( ugggghhh).

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   There is no cure for stupid. R. White.

7. 
   Lansdown | Jun 02, 2006 07:56pm | #20

   Having just cleaned my 300+ feet of galv. half round, I hear you brother.
   BTW. 1.what paint would you recommend for the interior of the gutters, they are already showing early signs of rust.
   2. some of the gutters are against flat roofs which have LCC drip edges (that the roof is torched down to). Since the half rounds are set away from the drip edges due to the circlip brackets, the installers put in a strip of coil stock that undulates over the clips. Looks like shid.
   Care to bring your tools and make a side trip when on the island this summer :-)

8. 
   Sphere | Jun 02, 2006 08:18pm | #23

   I ain't gonna be there in August....sadly.

   Ok, what you have is a filler from the DE to gutter top, no biggie, but yup, it can be ugly around the shanks.

   You can get some snips by Wiss that have the center cut function ( they eat a curl) and relieve the filler at each shank, but unless it is REALLY obvious and ugly...I'd just deal with it.

   If the filler is LCC and you are so inclined, you could theroretically work the LCC witha straight peen hammer to conform around the shanks...a few rivets on either side will work to keep the newly formed ( I dont wanna say stretched) in place..rivets hold well in most wood.

   Geocel 2315 is a fibered elastomeric coating available from ABC Supply..about 35 a gallon..great stuff! That'll buy you some time cuz it works w/galv and Cu and Al.   BUT,if the gutter was soldered or fluxed ( and I mean zinc chloride fluxxed upped) recently, no joy. Seal with Lexel..foe some reason Lexel wont be repelled by flux.

   back to point..geo or lex the the rivets, or do what I do, hit a spot of solder on them. The rivet shanks are steel or at least partly so, plenty of heat and plenty of flux.

   Can you tell we are pretty anal about our stuff? LOL.

   Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

   There is no cure for stupid. R. White.

9. 
   Lansdown | Jun 02, 2006 10:36pm | #27

   Sphere, thanks for the info.My gutters were not soldered but were sealed with that proprietary gutter goop stuff. Is the Geocel for coating the inside of the gutters?I guess the bending of the filler is probably not that noticeable to most people, but I see it and you would surely notice it (maybe SeeYou too, LOL). I'll try the ball peen hammer technique first. Are the yellow handled Weiss snips the center cuts?I thought you were coming in August afterall. Well you still got 2-1/2 months to change your mind again and join the Merry Pranksters. Now that would make the Fest complete if you guys showed up in a flower power school bus.

10. 
    Sphere | Jun 03, 2006 02:23am | #30

    You can coat the inside of any gutter or other trough ( iszatta word?),,and Grant is right, I uz thinking about the wrong app. for the OP.

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    There is no cure for stupid. R. White.

3. 
   serviceblocks | Jun 02, 2006 01:38am | #9

   I was actually going to use the hidden fastners that screw into the wood fascia.  What is the issue with attaching the gutter to the fascia and rafter tails? What would be the preferred method?

4. 
   Shavey | Jun 02, 2006 01:46am | #10

   I`d like to see how many of your gutters are still hanging with that philosophy....