I had a very reputable roofer here today to estimate installing a new roof and gutters on my raised ranch in suburban New York. When discussing the gutters some questions came up:
1. He said that the gutters ahould go over the flange of the drip edge, i.e., the drip edge would be between the gutter and the soffit. But everything I’ve read here says that the gutter should be under the drip edge. He says that this could let the water get back under the edge and onto the roof deck. Who is right?
2. When I asked about leaf guards (lots of maples here) he suggested two systems: Waterfall ($4/foot) and gutter stuff, a foam product ($9/foot).
Anyone have expereince with these products and are they priced right?
3. Some people on the forum like 6″ gutters while the roofer proposes 5″. Is this an important difference?
Thanks for your help!!!
Replies
There is something that doesn't make sense in this story.
Nobody in their right mind would put the gutters above the drip edge. If they did, the water coming down the roof would just hit the side of the gutter and dribble through between it and the fascia.
So either this roofer is not as good as his reputation indicates...or you misunderstood something he said...or I misunderstood something you said....
The gutter should be mounted on the face of the fascia, so that its run (which must be sloped towards the downspout) lies below the drip-edge flashing at all times. The shingles should extend ¾" past the top flange of the drip edge; the water should roll off these shingles and drop straight down into the gutter. If wind-blown rain or a very low-slope roof conspire to force water back under the shingle eaves edge so it courses down the face of the drip edge, it should be able to drip off the bottom 'kicker' and fall into the gutter.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dino, at last I finally can read a proper, intelligent reply as to this drip edge set-up.
I only hope your compentent info rubs off on some of the ill-advised posters that venture forth on the forum .
keep up the good replys, they make sense.
Hube., I install gutter. Not daily, but a fair amount over the course of time in a few months.
Hube, I can agree that NO gutter , wether half round or K stlye or BOX goes ABOVE a Drip edges leading egde..cuz , gee..it don't work.
Hube..there has been a gregarious misunderstooding of the OP's post. I see it in 3d.
What his installer was contemplating was letting the DE lower lip overlap the back of a K style gutterage ( as I READ IT, your results may vary).
I have installed a zillion hangers and use an approach that MAY clear this up. Use a LEVEL with a slope / pitch line for drop per foot.
Now it gets fun....the gutter very well may have to be even w/ the DE @ the center span tween drops..then she drops an 1/8 ( or what ever the the roof calls for as far as shedding a flow) to the foot.
IF this is NOT POSSIBLE...level the last 5..6..whatever ..to the drop..if the drop is 4' from the gable, slope THAT to the drop OR make it level.
Sometimes, Hube..ya gotta make it work..a 40' run with custom cast bronze hangers, @ 20 bucks a pop...you do what water wants to do..and consider cappilarry action..thats it.
As far as "tucking " behind the DE? Ifyou be up that high with the gutter (impossible with 1/2 round)...some budy FU'd the edge.
I ain't pickin on ya HUBE, just coming back , Like youd enjoy with me. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I kidnapped the runaway bride..her eyse weren't like that in the before pics.
Sphere, i know what your saying as the slope of the length of gutter can come into play. Too much slope and you can be far below the drip edge. the alternative would be to custom fab the drip edge with a longer vertical drip edge.
But ,you don't need this so-called 1/8" to the foot slope to the foot, or for that
matter, hardly any slope at all (almost level)
For example; a gutter length of say 60 ft could actually in a sense be installed almost perfectly level. It would not overflow with even one outlet but an out- let at each end would be better.
i know there is a limitation (I forgot the code details) to the amount of linear trough you can run per outlet, and even if the trough had no apparent slope at all it would never get close to over flowing with the proper amount of outlets. (conductors)
Over the years I have installed miles of "og" type eavestrough,half round, k type, drip edge, flashings,etc, etc, and sometimes these gutters have to be installed with very little fall. And if it is a long stretch across a wide ranch style home it looks better without the large drop.(slope)
Correct..in all.
A large drop in a historic reno/rehab is sometimes unavoidable ( like a cistern feed trough).
I am blessed to be able to recreate or refabricate many systems, includeing box, "k" and half round..
I ain't trying to be a smart aze, I just do it for a living.
I apologize for wisen off at ya..but..you have a few more coming. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Viva!!! Chileo" !!!! The man with a golden heart. And a Thumbs up attitude.
> the alternative would be to custom fab the drip edge with a longer vertical drip edge.
What I did since I was custom fabbing was to make the gutter and drip edge as a single shop-built assembly. It extends about 6 or 8 inches up onto the roof deck, and from there down there's solid metal in the way of the water all the way to the outer lip of the gutter. This apron is also what attaches the gutter to the house. Below the gutter, the rest of the fascia is also wrapped in copper, also part of the shop assembly.
-- J.S.
Thanks for the compliments, but--and no offense to anyone here--I don't really think gutter placement is rocket-science, LOL. I can't imagine what that so-called roofer of Forrester's has got in mind....
BTW, the 'kick' on the bottom edge of the standard OTS drip edge we usually have to use (not many clients willing to pay for custom copper, sadly...) isn't pronounced enough to keep water off the fascia unless it's held off the face. And no way could a gutter slip under that kick. I don't believe it's more than an eighth off plane to the vertical face....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Hi hube,
yea, I know about the the little kick out bend, in my experience it hasnt been enoughto allow me t oget the gutter up and underneath, at least not the stuff that is being installed around here. Only once I found a nice DE with a big fat lip, it was on a tile roof job, (not many of them around here).
Dinosaur,
Custom DE? wouldnt that be nice,I'd like to get that treat once. One trick I have found that works on tight Edge,( and it still is a bear) is to not clip the hangers on the back edge of the gutter, just let them hang kinda inside, then slide the gutter up under the de, raise the hanger app. to wear it would be and shoot it in, you have to make sure though that your screw goes through the back wall of the gutter. That has worked for me a coupla times.
Have Fun
E
Whether you use 5" or 6" gutters is more a function of how much roof area is feeding into the gutter. I recently finished a home with a large steep roof, 2/3rds of which, on each side of the house, fed into a narrow section between two gable dormers. 5" gutter would have been inadequate during a heavy rain squall.
Otherwise, it might simply be a matter of visual scale.
Or, it might be that the gutter guy you're talking to only has dies for a 5" gutter.
#1: Total BS, although I see this carelessly done frequently at the high point on the gutter.
#2: There's many types of leaf guards and they are all better than what the other guy sells. I've seen major freezing problems them, but that could be in the system design and installation rather than the actual product design. All of them keep the leaves out, most of them also keep some of the water out.
#3: What Dino said. One size does not fit all. He's probably just got a 6" machine. On the other hand 5" maight be adequate for your place.
I think I'd seek out some other estimates.
REMEMBER THE BOSTON BATWANGER.
OK, I'll bite, tho I'll probably be sorry...Boston Batwanger???
If you gotta ask, you dont wanna know..................................REMEMBER THE BOSTON BATWANGER.
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A person with no sense of humor about themselves is fullashid
What those other guys said.....
Whenever I am the guy who puts the sheathing on a roof, I make absolutely certain that the dripedge can NEVER touch the face of the facia. I extend the sheathing about 1/2" past where the finished fascia will be. That way, there can be no question -- the gutters will be mounted on the fascia, and the dripedge will be about 1/2 to 3/4" out from that.
If you've met an installer who is doing it the other way, you should probably ask him for the name and adress of other customers. Go look at one. And while you're looking, think like a drop of water.
The dripedge goes further out from the gascia, so that the bottom edge of it hangs above the trough. And make sure that his installations have some slope. I've seen dozens of houses where the gutters are as perfectly level as the fascia.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
Thanks for the great answers. First Let me apologize, I used the wrong term.
I meant that he wanted to put the gutter over the bottom of the dripedge against the fascia, not the soffit.
To clarify, The way I understand the result of this discussion, the bottom of the drip edge should not even touch the fascia while the gutter should be flush against the fascia. Is this correct?
Thanks again
That is correct.
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For leaf guards we've had good luck with a product I picked up at HD. It's 4-foot sections of plastic grating that snap on to the K gutter. (You have to notch the units around ferrules.) Unlike the roll screen stuff, this stays in place. Only problem we've had so far is that maple seeds get stuck in it to a degree, but not that bad.
although I don't recommend any leave gaurd systems I have sold and installed both the products you are considering.
the best one for your situation will depend on several things
The foam product is the newest product---it does work well. It is more expensive( costs me about $3/foot just for the product)---very simple install and PERFECT if installing new gutters with hidden hangers( don't use spike and ferulles). It will work best if you are primarily trying to keep out broad tree leaves----probably less effective on pine needles, maple seedlings and those " stringy things". It will also keep your gutters more ice free. It is absolutely invisible from the ground.
The water fall----I have used similar systems( predecessors of this product). One I installed near my house has been up and working flawlessly for about 10 years.
The product is very visible from the ground, installation is simple---though tedious----and not terrible secure. It will work well on a wider variety of debris---but it's much more likely to blow off or be pulled off by critters or to have birds try to build nests UNDER it. It is VERY likely to have snow and ice collect on top of it.
Personally---I would preferr the foam product IF i was up against the "right" debris.
the material Dan T mentioned---we have used that also---it actually does work pretty well on short sections of gutter----it works less well, long term on longer gutter sections----the 4 ft. pieces start to mi-align from each other, birds nest under it and in general it suffers from all the problems the water fall system has----but it is much less expensive----some times i throw it in for free.
stephen
Stephen, what's the brand name of the foam gutter guard you've used. I've looked at that stuff and was considering trying it on my house in my new copper gutters. I need a product to sell with copper and those topper things look like hell to me and won't work with metal roofs without modification. I saw one that had a half round profile as well, but I can't find the add.OOPS, I did it again.............................
greencu,
I am sorry but I don't know the brand name. My invoice lists 'em as
5 " gutter foam inserts, 4' 30/Bx.
I stand corrected they are $7.80 each, they come 30 to a box, I used about $460 of 'em on a customers house. The boxes were completely devoid of any brand name---just blank cardboard boxes.
I will probably eventually put 'em on my own house----I have a hodgepodge of copper and aluminum gutters with a mix of halfround and K style. As I slowly convert everything back to copper I will install the foam as I go.
first I half to decide between half round and K style.
Stephen
Edited 6/26/2005 12:13 pm ET by Stephen_Haz
Stephen,I have had one customer (a condo assoc pres) tell me he tried the foam product for the gutters. He said it held a lot of water and in the winter that became a lot of ice and they had gutters falling down.But you are saying "It will also keep your gutters more ice free."OK. I believe you over him, but do you have any thoughts on what his problem might have been??Thanks.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I vote for de in the gutter please. Hopefully the roofer wont slam it up tight to the fascia , this way the gutter guy has a chance to get it up under there, without killing himself trying.
greencu ------------ http://www.gutterstuff.com/story.htm
I think this is what your after, A local roofer(we sub for him and do all his gutter installs) here is a distributor, he's all excitedd about it, I'm holding a wait and see . I'm just concerned with it clogging up with dirt and pollenand shingle stone. I hope it does work out cause , I think its good for copper gutter, you cant see it and lets face it copper gutter? BEEEautiful, copper screen? loooks ugly. (IMHO)
It is very easy to install on a new install, it can test your patience on an existing gutter.
have fun, Eric
It won't matter if the roofer slams it up tight against the facia because a properly made drip edge has a "slight kick out" on the lower edge 3/8" and the gutters leading edge will slip up into it with no problem.
Thanks for the link - this is not the brand I've looked at before, but I'll definately check it out.OOPS, I did it again.............................
Hi all,
I'm blown away by the assistance from all of you and I appreciate your suggestions very much. After seeing your responses, I called the roofer and asked him to explain things again. He says that he is aware that others put the gutter behind the dripedge but he has found that in the winter, ice can build up between the drip edge and the gutter and then back under the drip edge into the roof. He says he uses a drip edge with a very long vertical flange so that the lower edge of the flange will be well down behind the gutter and block ice from backing up into the roof. He allows the shingles and horizontal part of the drip edge to overlap the gutter as per standard practice.Anyway, today a truck delivered all the materials and tomorrow he starts. Any last minute opinions?
BTW, the foam he uses for the gutters is "GutterStuff" at $9/foot which sounds expensive.
I would go look at one of his previous jobs if you want to see what water does as it attempts to get off the roof. It goes over the shingle extension, under the shingle and back uphill until it hits the drip, down the face of the drip, out the little kick and then again backwards toward the fascia a bit. On low pitch roofs you will see the water actually go back as far as the finished fascia and leave debris marks.
I see someone holds the roof sheathing out past the fascia about a half inch and then applies the drip. That does keep the drip off the fascia. On the older board sheathed roofs that was standard practice. Now-a-days a snapped line and a wandering circular saw and you could end up with a negative overhang.
We, unless someone has a strong objection, add a 1x2 at the top of the fascia under the sheathing overhang, which gives a full 3/4" spacing to an otherwise tightly installed drip. This, coupled with the lip of the drip and the overhang of the shingle, effectively places a drop of water, if it were to go straight down, more than 1 1/2" inches away from the finished fascia.
Just TRY to hang a spike and ferrule gutter outboard of that arrangement.
rich, I used a small piece of it on a custermers house last fall----no problems. I used about a mile of it just 2 weeks ago on a house I was siding( I had put a new roof and gutters on it las year.)
My supplier tells me that the black color of the foam heats up fastd keeps things melted. I have seen a lot of snow and ice sitting on top of the waterfall style products.
One source of the condo associations problem could be the downspouts-------ever see a lot of split seams on downspouts?????
Gutter is fine---melted ice drips of warmish roof into gutter---travels down hill to downspout---and re-freezes inside cold downspout??????---Next thing you know gutter is filling up---and now the gutter is freezing solid??????
Is that a possibility for you?????
Best wishes, Stephen
Stephen,I've only talked to the guy once. I believe he said they tried it on only one unit (seems to be a very cautious type) and had that problem.If I correctly understand that you are only going to be at the Fest on Thursday, then....I'm sorry I won't be seeing you at the Fest. Maybe next time!Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
awwwww, cmon Rich---I am effen meetin ya halfway, and I am going there on my 21st wedding anniversary---ya know what THAT is gonna cost me??????
give a brother a break!!!
Stephen
If your roofer has told you that the drip edge should be between the gutter and the soffit, he is absolutly WRONG. The drip edge should always be in front of the rear gutter back edge., otherwise it would'n't be a drip edge. Its function is to make sure any roof rain water runs INTO the gutter and not behind it.
I hope your roofer don't do any sod lawn work (green side down or up?)