Just curious about it. I am a trim carp with a little bit of knowledge in alot of things. Have always said that someday I will give tham some time. Of course I have been saying I would donate to PBS for 20 years and never have. I just want to know how the experience is. Do you bring your own tools. give me a run down on a typical week or day.
thanks
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Replies
I've done it with a group twice. It was fun, they only want you to bring the basics. Hammer, razor knife, stuff like that. Leave the power tools at home, the first time I asked the boss why he didn't pull out the power tools and go to town on the house and his response was that the volunteers felt better if they got out there and pounded nails and worked all day, and I could see his point. Keep in mind that the group I was with was too small to do a build, we were just used for punch list stuff.
They also have guys like yourself that have experiance who show up on their own who are given more specialized tasks, or they're left to kind of lead a group doing something. The last time I went we were tasked with loading pre built walls onto a flat bed and delivering to a sight that was going to go up the next week. They had been built by a bunch of old timers on a bench. If you go with no expectations of building things your way and showing people your version of the right way to do things you'll like it. Just go with the flow, a lot of people grumble that they would do it different, but it's like the guy told me. "We've built them all over the world in hurricane territory and tornado alley, and not one of our houses has fallen down yet." So I figure they must be doing something right.
Who Dares Wins.
Your going to get a lot of different opinions on this. My experience was good, I am a cabinetmaker/trim carpenter to and I used to oversea the building of a house each year for the local H for H.
I always took my own tools but you have to watch out for them, I never worried about theft just someone not putting things back, same results though.
We only worked Sat. but I would go on Fridays and do some stuff that I wanted to do alone, no one bothering you.
My overall experience was good, I really enjoyed it. You just have to go and see how things go, not all local groups do things the same.
Doug
Each local group is an "affiliate" of Habitat national. Almost like a franchise--for the use of name and organizational help, the local has to send some fraction of the funds raised to the national/international group.
There's a wide variety of approaches used at the different affiliates, and even by a single affiliate for different houses. One approach is to build 4 or 5 days a week with teams of "pick up" volunteers. Most work on Saturdays with large volunteer groups and one or two other days mainly with retirees (and occasionally guys in the trades). Another way is to have the building done by people in the groups sponsorig the house (a church, a club [like the Lions Club], or a business) with a general contractr in Habitat payroll doing the supervising. Sometimes volunteers do the framing, roofing, and painting and everything else is done by commercial specialty contractors at the going rate, a reduced rate, or (rarely) donated.
Some affiliates do a lot more rehab work, others mainly new construction.
The neighborhoods that these houses are in are poor and sometimes pretty tough. We've had the houses vandalized and tool/material bins (shipping containers) cleaned out. Once some volunteers cars about a block from the jobsite were broken into. Most of the neighbors are glad to see us, and some will join in the work. It's interesting, though, in areas where we've built three or four houses within a block or two, I've seen the neighborhood really improve.
Anyway, most affiliates are like a lot of volunteer organizations--not the most efficient outfits around, from the standpoint of time, schedules, and volunteer use. This to get as much mileage as possible out of the donated money. This drives lot of guys nuts--guys who are used to building for profit or to make a living, where time is money.
Give it a try. And if it's not as good an experience as you'd like, give it another chance in a while. A change of site supervisors (usually paid staff) makes a huge difference in the experience.
Cliff
Another good way to build up karma deposits is to volunteer through your church.
Stop by the church office, talk to whoever is there and mention you have some skills and some time and would like to help some folks.
I guarantee you they will have all sorts of needs you can help with -elderly or sick parishners, or local folks with various needs. The church itself can probably use some tuneups and touchups.
Talk with the youth pastor, s/he'll have some ready helpers and probably some projects as well.
Put together a work crew, or join up with teams already in place. There is debate within the Christian world whether good works will get you through the pearly gates, but even if they don't get you through the gates, they'll help get you a really good cloud {G}
_______________________
Albert Einstein said it best:
“Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”
Your mileage may vary ....
i've been involved in 5 houses in the last 5 years.i try to work on thurs and fri and stay clear on sat. on weekdays you usally have some knowledgeable craftsman [amatuer] and you get to working with them a few days a week and pretty soon you'll forget your working you'll be having such a good time! plus everbody is learning from each other so they they can learn a new skill. try it and good luck
I still holding a grudge against HFH. Last year or so I offered my time and the said no thanks, but if you have any money or materials we would take that. So I offer them a chance to kiss my ####.
WAHD
I still holding a grudge against HFH. Last year or so I offered my time and the said no thanks, but if you have any money or materials we would take that. So I offer them a chance to kiss my ####.
Any idea on why they turned down your offer?
_______________________
Albert Einstein said it best:
“Problems,” he said, “cannot be solved at the same level of consciousness that created them.”
Your mileage may vary ....
I've worked with Habitat since May. Our group is just finishing two new construction homes. There are a total of 12 homes being completed this year (6 are done) in our city.
Each group is sponsored by a church or large company. They supply the volunteers for Saturday's work. Our group is sponsored by a local Lutheran church. We have about 10 guys (mostly retired) with varying degrees of skills and specialties. We work Tuesday's and Thursday's from 9-3. We bring our own tools (power tools included) and habitat supplies some of the big stuff (job box, drywall lift etc).
It's a great way to learn new skills. I learned how to layout walls and how to install electrical service this year.
And the most amazing part is the guys I work with. I've made 15 fast friends and all have the same easy going, giving personality.
And we never turn down help!
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
you might want to check out volunteering to do handyman work through your local senior center. that would give you a little more freedom to focus on stuff you know and when you're available without being subject to how, when and where the HFH crew does things, has a project house, etc.
i'd also recommend researching the track record of your local HFH chapter. i've read that some have deplorable default rates on their units (owners unable to handle the mortgage and expense of homeownership) and other bureaucratic problems.
my personal impression is that HFH is a good idea but experiences too many difficulties that result when dealing with real people in the real world. in particular, is it necessarily a good idea to select certain people/families that are unable (perhaps to some extent, even unwilling) to afford a home under conventional circumstances? homeownership is an ENORMOUS responsibility and burden (there is no landlord to call when the inevitable happens, etc, etc, etc). income track record, credit worthiness, demonstration of the ability to save a down payment- banks have those rules for a reason. ultimately, i believe that for the relatively microscopic number of people HFH is actually able to help (how many homes do they build in even big cities in a year?) compared to the demand, those human and financial resources could be better utilized for the greater good in other ways. they are a fantastic PR machine, but i'm unimpressed with the number of actual people they help in the long run.
my $0.02
m
mitch,
An important aspect of Habitat--maybe the most important--is that it provides a chance for people to buy a house who can't qualify for conventional loans.
There's a screening process to make sure that the future homeowners have a steady source of income, and the long waiting period (in my affilaite, sometimes a year or more) and requirement of 500 or so hours of work on Habitat projects (as a "sweat equity" down payment) tends to weed out those looking for easy gains. Breaking the cycle of poverty is a big goal. Habitat is one way to do it, where people in need get a hand up, but have to invest their own effort (in a big way) to better their lives.
There are defaults on the mortgages, sure. Not any in my affiliate, but we have had to be flexible in a few cases, adjusting the payments when a homeowner family hit a financial bump in the road. The default rate varies among affiliates, because each affiliate operates in a different regional economy and each has it's own criteria and selection committee. And just like in a for-profit business, some people make better decisions (like choosing partner families to be future homeowners) than others.
As far as whether the organization is having enough of a beneficial effect for the resources spent, I think it is. In my affiliate, I've seen a couple dozen families go from poverty housing--really rat holes in a few instances--to decent, simple Habitat houses. I've seen the kids and how it's given them hope of improving their lives. How could it not? The fact that the community comes together to build with a partner family makes the kids think they're something special. And they're more likely to make something of themselves if they have some sense of self worth.
It's pretty cool to work alongside the families. Kids aren't allowed on the jobsites, but many times grandma or whoever will bring them out at lunch on Saturday to see mom or dad working on the house. Usually the kids eyes pop when they see that they'll have a back yard, and they're pestering their parent to get a dog as soon as they move in.
So As Elenor Roosevelt said, you can curse the darkness, or you can light a single candle.
If you have a problem with this as a "give-away" program, it's not. If you think that everyone ought to be able to make it on their own, with no help from others, fine.
I've found it spiritually rewarding to give my time and effort to someone (and in a larger sense to the community and our country) with no expectation of getting anything back. That doesn't mean that I haven't experienced frustrations working as a volunteer, but I keep coming back to the big picture, and realize that I get more out of the effort than I put into it.
Cliff
i wouldn't argue for a second that HFH doesn't do good work and i definitely applaud any and all private charity efforts- i think the government/taxpayer based welfare system is completely out of control in virtually every sense of the word. what i'm saying is that for all the resources mustered on behalf of a relative few, both in $$ and peoples' time and energy, how many more disadvantaged folks could be helped by simpler (but far less attention getting) programs like co-signing loans, mortgage subsidies, emergency payment assistance, renovating existing housing for inner city redevelopment, etc? look at how many thousands of dollars and thousands of man hours go into building one new home to help one family. i'm asking if maybe a dozen families or more could get just the little bit of help they need to get them over the hump for the same amount of resources? is HFH really an efficient model to help as many people as possible or is it a novel, interesting program that generates great pr and community support but has a significant impact on only a tiny percentage of those in need? does it make a big difference in the lives of many people or does it mostly provide the illusion of making a big difference for the many who contribute? sure, habitat projects look great on tv and in the paper, especially with celebrity involvement upping the glamor factor, but i question the real effect it has on society for all the hoopla it generates and resources it consumes. as i said in my last post, HFH is a fantastic PR machine, but i'm just not very impressed with how relatively little it truly accomplishes with what it has to work with.
HFH has to have rigorous qualifying standards (though obviously not as high as the average bank) because so much is riding on a single roll of the dice- and i've heard they still have significantly higher default rates than typical homebuyers. could a dozen families qualify for lesser assistance of some sort without all the hoops? wouldn't that cut down on paperwork and bureaucracy, while increasing the positive effect on the community?
(and btw- i put in my time on a HFH project for community service credit in National Honor Society way back in high school. i pretty much thought the same way about it over 25 years ago.)
oh well, if that's your thing, i sure wouldn't stop anybody.
m
what I'm saying is that for all the resources mustered on behalf of a relative few, both in $$ and peoples' time and energy, how many more disadvantaged folks could be helped by simpler (but far less attention getting) programs
Those that work for HFH enjoy what they do, like helping others, give freely of their own time, etc..
To sit back and criticize what is being done is your right but I don't have to like it. What have you done to help disadvantaged people this year? Any of these ? co-signing loans, mortgage subsidies, emergency payment assistance, renovating existing housing for inner city redevelopment,You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
The HFH affiliate in my county has built over 200 homes since it was formed about 20 years ago. This year they plan to build 50. About 1/2 of the 50 will be built/donated by professional builders, although HfH supplies the land, infastructure, and foundation. Their homeowner default rate thus far is zero.
The famlies who get the houses pay for them - at cost, and they get interest free loans. They are required to work 400hrs of sweat equity per family, but some can do little more than sweep and shouvle.
Things do tend to be a bid disorganized though. Make a phone call or 2 ahead of time to help set your expectations. Some of the building techniques are selected specifically since it is the best way to worked with semi skilled people. This is ocaisionally frustrating to building professionals. If you have special skills or types of work you want to do, find out when that type of work would be available.
The affiliate in my county supplies power tools, hand tools, ladders, scaffolding, etc, but volunteers are best off to bring the basics, and the best way to be assured you will have a sharp skill saw, or a sash style paintbrush is to bring your own.
They hire professionls for the concrete work, foundations, drywall, HVAC, plumbing and electrical.
Matt
I know you're in NC, but what county? I'm in Orange and the last time I tried to hook up with HFH here, it was pretty much like WAHD's experience.
Doofusses running the office. Matt G from the Breaktime site hooked me up with the HFH Princeville blitz (12 houses 12 days). The folks in charge were twits, some officious some not. Some of the "pros" they had called in were not (we had to redo a porch and rip all the vinyl siding off of one side of a house the pros had done). HFH had all the tools, just take your apron. We came in as carps and did sheetrock, among other things. None the less, it was a great experience. The Americorps kids and a Mennonite group couldn't have worked any harder, or have been any nicer.
Maybe my county will get it together and let me know when and where they're working ( ok, ok, maybe they know who I am<G>). Anyway, I think it's a great cause, and the working conditions are more than a lot of fun. EliphIno!
Habitat for Humanity is a great organization, but there is a piece missing... HFH houses have the highest repossession rates in the country. Even though folks are pre-qualified and donate a lot of sweat equity to their houses, nobody ever helps them develop good spending habits. If HFH clients had good spending and saving habits, they probably wouldn't need HFH, but we build them a house and expect them to change overnight. Doesn't happen.
It's a terrific program. I just wish it did more to make sure people KEEP their houses, once they build them.
before YOU sit back and criticize me, maybe you should have first asked the question about my own situation. not that it's any of your GD business, but because we believe charity begins at home and having no kids of our own, for the last few years my wife and i have been helping put her sister thru nursing school while she raises two wonderful kids as a single mom. combined with the fact she lost her home last week in the so cal fires, our support is now well into 5 figures- and we are by no stretch of the imagination rich. (also none of your business, but this was during a time we were racking up almost $100k in legal bills in a battle with an unscrupulous ex-business partner) i also taught junior achievement for a number of years but the bureaucratic disorganization finally drove me out of it.
my point, in case you missed it, was that i don't think, on average, HFH chapters get a lot of bang for the buck. i understand that some do a great deal more than just build new houses, and yes, i recognize that many folks are motivated to donate their time- if not skills- by the "fun" and interesting aspect of the work where they might not otherwise do anything at all. i've also heard a few tradesmen over the years get told the same thing that someone earlier in the thread mentioned- if you want to donate $$ or materials, great, but we don't need any more labor, skilled or otherwise. also, i'm with oregon bob- default/repo rates on HFH homes are significantly higher than for people who qualified thru conventional channels. i think that says something about whether or not the programs are having a solid long-term effect. saddling someone with a mortgage they ultimately cannot afford or a house they can't maintain properly is not doing them any favors, no matter how well intentioned. the vast majority of people who are unable to afford to buy a house are probably better off renting. missing a few months' rent is far less devastating to one's life and credit than having your home foreclosed on.
if your chapter has a 0% default/foreclosure rate, it is far and away the exception to the rule- especially if you're building that many units. also, 0% over how many years? i've heard that after a relatively short period (was it 2 yrs? 3?), HFH considers their "clients" to be on their own and if they default after that it doesn't count against the official failure rate. i can't remember where i came across that info- do you happen to know anything about it? quite frankly, i find dirishinme's statement that his chapter has built 200 house over 20 years with absolutely NO defaults in that entire time utterly implausible.
if you go back and read the original post in this thread, my comments were in the context of offering folks alternatives to working for HFH, but who still wanted to donate their time and energy to a worthy cause. i simply suggested that he may be able to find an organization where he can make a bigger difference in peoples' lives and better utilize his skills and available time.
someone also mentioned my "derogatory" comments about HFH being a very well publicized organization. that's probably a fair assessment of my opinion. i see a lot of celebrity participation- the list goes on and on- (and to be fair, i am more than a little sick of mega-rich stars lending their face and name to a cause, while doing precious little in the way of actually donating any of their precious fortunes. a pox on the houses of those who demand first class travel expenses, etc from "their" charities. i suppose some of the HFH supporters at least get their hands a little dirty), but ultimately i believe there are better ways to help people. that doesn't make me a bad, mean, unfairly critical person any more than it makes HFH's supporters suckers. once again, if HFH is your thing, fine and dandy, it's just not for me, my time or my money.
m
Edited 11/4/2003 9:02:54 PM ET by mitch
I think the Christmas in April is now called Rebuilding Together, but don't quote me on that.
I've worked on 3 Habitat sites with my local church youth group. We've been to NM, MT, and Humbolt in CA. It's a great experience, and it is fantasitic to see the emotions on the homeowners faces. They are so proud and happy of their new home and the help from our group and other volunteers. It's my favorite charity, hands down.
If anyone knows of any Habitat sites near the SF North Bay area, please email me and let me know...I'd like to get involved whenever I have some free time.
Mitch:
Volunteering for Habitat is not for everyone. Sometimes pros don't fit in well, because they want to show up, immediately be in charge, and/or do it there way. And as I said above - the lack of qualified leadership can be difficult to to deal with.
On the other hand, some builders fit in in a big way and do it their own way - they donate complete houses.
Many people, at this place in time, are just so busy running their life and family's lives day to day, they don't have the resources to help other people. Everyone though, at some time in their life, needs to give back to the community they live in. Putting away your shopping cart at the grocery store doesn't qualify. Some simply give money to nonprofit organizations. That is good too, but I guess I like to see the results of my (time) donations. The annual $50 donation to some mega-charity is a cheap way out, and personally I'm not comfortable with having 50% of what I give go to "administration".
As far as helping out your sister in law, and similar - it's called taking care of your own. It's what you do. As far as your legal problems (not sure what that has to do with this conversation) I think that could just be a symptom of the me society you choose to live in. And I think you are right, Habitat won't work in a me society. You choose!
Matt
Edited 11/8/2003 5:03:21 PM ET by DIRISHINME
of course, my point was that due to extremely pressing obligations on our time and money for the last few years, neither my wife or i have done much in the way of more public giving lately. my answer was directed at someone else who, without knowing jacksh!t about my personal situation, implied i was sitting on my a$$, criticizing HFH, and not helping anybody but myself. while you say "it's what you do", the simple fact of the matter is far too few people do look after their own families while far too many expect the government or somebody else to do it. obviously, circumstances vary from case to case. i'm always reminded of the actress sarah jessica parker- mrs. matthew broderick- b!tching a few years back that welfare cuts would hurt members of her immediate family. apparently they weren't so dear to her that she and her husband would part with any of their million$, but she's happy to lend her celebrity to the cause- so long as it doesn't actually cost her anything.
i'm not sure i get your point about my legal battle being a symptom of the me society I choose to live in? was I just supposed to let an extremely incompetent, irresponsible, lackadaisical, greedy, dishonest and unethical business partner cost us our home, ruin our finances, and completely trash our lives? sometimes "turn the other cheek" is just another way to say "bend over and spread your cheeks." sorry, not my style, but whatever works for you.
m
"if we're all here to help everybody else, what's everybody else here for?" anonymous
HFH houses have the highest repossession rates in the country
Do you have a study to back up that statement? It is not the case in my community.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Billy:
I would be the same Matt G. Changed my login name during some of the reorgs here. The Irish thing is from another deplfi form for motorcycling. Somehow, it got propagated over here.
I spent 8 days on the Princville hurricane recovery project and did everything from framing to roofing to trim work. Only lasted about 2 hrs at the sheetrock thing though. Via here and some other channels brought upwards to 20 people (at one time or another) to the site.
I'm in Wake County - Raleigh area. Yes, you are right, HfH can be pretty disorganized. The fact is that they don't have the budgets to hire qualified people and, I have found it highly frustrating myself at times.
Still, if you keep the big picture in mind it can be very rewarding. I can say that I personally have made a major positive impact on a number of people's lives. Mind you, these people aren't like you and I, but none the less, there is at least a neighborhood and maybe 2 where "everybody knows my name".
The 2 I'm referring to are in the yuppie town of Cary, and I can tell you for a fact fact that those people's kids go to school with some of "the upper crust"... Otherwise, they would have been in downtown Raleigh or Durham studying intermural knife fighting ;^)Matt
You are so right, Habitat's secret weapon is how the volunteers feel after volunteering. After getting to to know the folks who'd be living in the houses, I felt very helpful, hard to get that many other places. EliphIno!
I always thought volunteering was the MOST selfish thing you could do, 'cause you feel so good afterwards.....
well, that and playing with yourself....
m
mitch,
Well, I never thought of the alternatives to building a house for a family. You have a point about there being alternatives--to help more people by providing less help to each family. For instance, there's a group called "Christmas in April" (going by a different name now, can't remember what) that does home repairs for lower-income and seniors. They have a big effort in April each year, and re-roof, build handicapped access ramps, and do smaller jobs in the community. They help a lot of people. It's a good program, and like Habitat it's not a government funded effort. There's HARPS (home assistance repair program for seniors) where skilled volunteers do free repairs on senior's homes. The administration of this and the tools and materials are goverment funded.
You have mentioned that Habitat is good at the "PR job" of building a new house, and I sense you mean it in a derogatory way. There certainly are situations where a project is hyped in the media to attract attention. The media exposure helps make people aware of what's being done, and that attracts support. BTW, it's not all new houses--a lot of affiliates concentrate on rebuilding old houses (we do a mix of new and rehab work in my group).
Your idea of having the effort that goes into Habitat instead go to financial support for many rather than into a new house for a few is interesting. So what you'd create is a sort of private assistance or welfare system? Well, my guess is that you wouldn't get too many people who want to donate time or money to that, who don't already do it through churches or existing non-profit groups--or actually, through the government via taxes that support FANNIE MAE and other programs to promote home ownership.
The attraction of Habitat is the fact that we're building a house--something big and tangible, through a project that has a beginning and an end. And we're building something that will endure. This is a big attraction for me; it's the old pioneer "barn raising" image.
Most of the volunteers (and donors) aren't in the trades, and so rarely get to build anything with their hands, and never have a chance to be a part of something as big a building a house. To consider your idea, imagine asking someone to donate to support low income loans for home ownership, or to work as a volunteer in an office on a Saturday processing the loan assistance paperwork! Right, lots of support, big volunteer turnout! So, you'd be hiring people to do that, right? But an implicit objection of yours to Habitat is the inefficiency/overhead. Most people involved in Habitat are unpaid volunteers (is that redundant?)
I see your point, though, about there being alternatives. And I guess my response is that there are outfits out there already that work along those lines.
Is this a great country, or what? You can take your choice of how to volunteer to help your community, or you can sit back and criticize how community service organizations do their jobs!
Cliff
i think the government/taxpayer based welfare system is completely out of control in virtually every sense of the word.
You're talking about the farm support program and the various corporate assistance programs here, right?
not in this context, no. but do i think those programs need massively restructured or in many cases done away with too, yes.
m
I have done a lot of of volunteering with Habitat in 3 different local affiliates over the last couple of years, and Mitch, I think you may be overlooking this point: the one house that Habitat just built helps far more than the one family that moves in. Adding to the stock of affordable housing helps the whole community. When the family that formerly rented something moves in, the demand for rentals goes down by one and the available supply goes up by one. Hence downward pressure on rental prices - good for everyone middle class and below. Also, Habitat families are like every other new homeowner: they need drapes, and welcome mats, and lawn chairs, etc, so you get stimulus to the local economy. If you keep thinking about it, there are a lot more advantages to society as a whole by increasing single family home ownership. HFH is the best example of charitable work I know of - most are useless or counter-productive.
That said, people who jump on you are wrong. Wondering whether there might be a better way of doing things is how the world improves. And any institution that can't withstand a little questioning of its value probably is an emperor with no clothes.
while what you say about economic benefits is undeniably true, it is equally undeniable that HFH's effect on such things is virtually immeasurably insignificant. they simply don't build enough units in any one area to have any such calculable effect. take the rental market for example- do HFH projects represent even one tenth of one percent (1 in 1000) of the total number of rental units, let alone the housing market overall? i doubt it in all but a few very small areas with very active HFH chapters, but even if they did and had a direct dollar for dollar effect on rent rates, that works out to only 50 cents on a $500/mo lease. and there's no way the rental market is that sensitive to such microscopic shifts in supply and demand.
your other point about consumer spending is a tricky one that municipalities often trot out on issues like new pro sports stadiums. unfortunately, it always discounts the fact that virtually all of that kind of economic activity merely represents dollars that were previously being spent elsewhere- in other words, very little in the way of newly "created" wealth.
as i keep saying, nobody needs to justify their involvement with HFH or any other charity on an economic, or any other rational, basis. this is one area where it's pretty much ok to take the attitude "if it feels good, do it". personally, i lean towards a greater emphasis on achieving maximum efficiency of available resources. the greatest amount of good, for the greatest number of people, at the lowest per "unit of good" cost. i think private charities should be able to accomplish that in whatever their particular mission is.
on a closely related note: this morning's paper has an article on a local HFH project. it makes reference to "when the homeowners pay their payments, the money recycles and pays for the next house". that kind of implies this particular chapter is actually self-financing the mortgages and/or building costs and directly rolling the loan payments back into the next one. am i reading this right? it has always been my impression that HFH provides considerable indirect support in the loan process (guarantees? co-signs? not sure exactly how) but is not in any position to actually carry the note for any of its "clients". or is the above quote just making sort of a loose reference to the fact that every successful project enables HFH in various ways to continue their good works? anybody know more about this?
m
Yep, I agree with your points on the economic impact being small, but I would respond 2 ways: First, there are 150,000 more affordable housing units out there than there would be without Habitat, and they are well built and will be around and beneficial for a long, long time. Second, if the program does has benefits, your point is an argument for MORE Habitat volunteering, so that the impact will be more significant.
Apart from economics, how about the less tangible but vastly more important benefits ? Pride of ownership can be a very strong positive. Does it decrease the chance of a family breaking up ? Improve academic performance of the kids ? Lessen their behavioral problems ? Motivate the breadwinners to take community college classes or seek promotions at work ? I can neither prove nor quantify any of those, but I think most everyone has seen anecdotal evidence of peoples lives improving when they managed to quit renting and own a home.
As for the financial aspect of Habitat, here's my understanding, but I hope someone who knows for sure will correct me if I'm wrong. (And for all I know, different affiliates may do things differently). Habitat gets donations of money and materials (possibly land) to build a house (lets say $50,000). Labor is free and the finished house has an appraised value of, let's say, $100,000. There is no debt, per se, but the owner pays a low/no interest mortgage to Habitat and yes, that cash flow can be used to finance the next house. If the owner moves, any profit (sales price - initial appraised value) is split between Habitat and the homeowner. The formula I have heard is 5% to the homeowner per year of occupancy. So if my example home here is sold for $140,000 five years later, Habitat gets the remaining principal balance of the mortgage + $30,000 (75% of $40,000), and the homeowner is ahead $10,000. Obviously, this provides even more incentive for the homeowners to keep up and improve the property. (And again, it's been described to me this way, but I've never seen anything in writing).
to be fair, it's entirely possible i'm operating on old info, too. it has been quite a few years since i really paid all that much attention to what HFH was up to. i suspect that as times have changed they've been forced to become more realistic about how they structure deals, mortgages, choose from applicants, etc. nobody, and i mean nobody, no matter how well intentioned, is immune to the laws of economics and the vagaries of human nature. and like any business, i'd expect HFH to adapt or fail. you can only go so far with good public relations and giving folks a warm fuzzy feeling about playing carpenter.
don't try to ride that economic impact horse too far though- even 150,000 units built out of roughly 100 million domiciles (one for every 2.5ish US citizens) is only 15/100ths of 1%, or about 15 out of every 10,000 homes, apartments, etc. the proverbial drop in the bucket. for many people, both contributors and recipients, HFH is a wonderful thing. however from a statistical point of view, its overall economic impact on a local, regional, national or galactic level is negligible. just recognize and enjoy it for what it is- a reasonably successful, fairly well run charitable organization that unquestionably has had and does have a positive effect on the lives of many people- but it's not some far-reaching, significant player in any economic sense.
you also need to keep in mind, before you make your next argument that HFH may have "rescued" many people, that it is by no means certain those very same people would not have found some way to get by and go on to succeed without HFH. the vast majority of folks obviously do. in other words, has HFH helped a lot of people in dire circumstances? undoubtedly. would all those have been utterly lost without HFH? undoubtedly not.
m
Thanks for your input. I think that it is a good thing for the enthusiasts among us to look at what we are doing from another viewpoint.
I personally don't know the societal value of the work that I do with HFH. I don't particularly care very much. It is more than enough reward to see the benefit for my neighbors, both the homeowners and the volunteers. Does it matter statistically? Probably very little, about the same as voting. The same as being a volunteer firefighter. The same as a Little League coach. All these people and others like yourself make a community worth living in.
One solution to your criticism would be to build more houses to help even more people. Unfortunately in our area, there are not too many people who make little enough money to need HFH to help them own a house but enough to be able to afford it without defaulting. Maybe that indicates the tiny niche that HFH serves but expanding out of that niche will create more of the problems that you point out, high default rate or serving people who can already take care of themselves.
I personally like to help out any friend of mine who is working on their own place. This is even more fun if there is a large group helping out. This is in the old American tradition of the communal barnraising and is really a gas.
it makes reference to "when the homeowners pay their payments, the money recycles and pays for the next house
In our community, Habitat has an endowment (gifts from generous people). Someone donates the land, volunteers build the house for about $40,000 (two story 4 bedroom this year). Habitat sells the home to the buyer on a no interest mortgage. As the payments are made, the money is added back to the endowment.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Mitch,
I've worked on Habitat's blitz build where they build 4 houses in a couple of weeks--an annual event down here in Huntsville, AL. I too get somewhat annoyed with some of the star billing such as Jimmy Carter, BUT I have to say as cynical as I may be it IS one of those programs that actually works! I don't know all the statistics and I don't know them internationally either, but I've been working on Blitz Builds for 3 years now and have NEVER met more deserving folks of a decent home. And the homes we build are maintained inside and out very well as we often build near them in following years.
The reason I emphasize these people are so deserving is because I have worked on the south side of Chicago with people who would fall into the same category as alot of these, and there is a world of difference in attitudes. This could be a result of locality, but nonetheless I have met 12 families going into Habitat houses and have never been disappointed. For one reason or another, whether they are down on their luck such as low income single parents or just low income type of areas the program tends to be a lot of fun and brings people together to pound nails.
I also have heard the opposite as far as defaults on loans--atleast in my area where you can count the number of defaults on 1 hand. Incidentally, we just celebrated 100 houses built.
Just wanted to share with you all some of what Mitch says doesn't make a significant difference...
Most of the homeowners were at work when I swung by yesterday, so didn't get as many people in the pics as I wanted... Ricky was camera shy...
Photo "Wickham Place" - a neighborhood of 17 houses near Raleigh NC.
A few of the residents:
Photo "Betty" - Betty is a 62 year old, recently widowed woman who works part time at a drug store - where she has worked for many years. Has one grand child living with her. She is kind of unique because she was previously a tenant on the land that was purchased for the development of Wickham Place.
Photo "Emmanuel" - lives there with his wife and 3 children. Plays Christian music for a living (no comment).
Photo "Norma" - ~35 year old who has her own house cleaning business (no employees). Her 2 teenage sons live with her.
Photo "Ricky" - ~ 40 year old apartment maintenance worker. 3 kind, ages ~7 - 17. Wife was a dental hygienist, but quit work to stay home with the kids, especially since the middle boy is a special needs child. Ricky said to me: "The payment is a better deal than I thought. Now I can do something besides live paycheck to paycheck, and just paying rent for 20 years." I said "Good, now you can send Ben (his youngest, and a sharp kid) to college."
Each of the homeowners in this neighborhood has a 1050 - 1250 sq ft house. Most are 3 bedroom. A few are 4 bedroom. They each have 20 year mortgages with about $400/mo payments.
Mitch says it doesn't matter, but I think he is wrong in every sense of the word. Matt
I've helped frame and roof several HFH houses. The framing crew that I work with are pros. I supervise the roofing which is done with all volunteers. The biggest problem is volunteers wanting to do the skilled work, but not wanting to do grunt work. There is always someone who wants to run the show, but doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground. Last year, I was showing a guy how to frame a wall. I was showing him where to drive the nails and he swung his hammer at a nail I was holding. He peeled my thumb. That being said, otherwise its been mostly good experiences. I've had several people tell me they would feel comfortable roofing their own house after a day of HFH on the job training.
Find a bunch of friends and sponsor a H for H house. That way you know who you are working with. (That is important in getting the work done.)
I think it costs about $35k around here to do that. Get 10 small businesses to kick in 3.5k a piece and find a bunch of building associates to volunteer.
cutawooda,
I took some heat here a year or so ago 'cause of my post in a similar thread-----but I will try to repeat myself anyhow. ( must be a glutton for punishment)
At one time I did quite a bit of work for my local hfh chapter. I volunteered 3-4 days a week during the spring blitz and 3-4 days during the fall blitz-----plus hfh contracted with me to do some roofs on hfh re-hab houses that they couldn't allow volunteers on.( the local chapter will now only build new houses,no re-habs at all.) I did that for several years---maybe 3?,4? I can't recall exactly. also for aperiod of time I was a "property manager" for hfh---trying to keep tabs on the dozens--actually around a hundred vacant lots the chapter owned.
when I started in all of that I LOVED it. I sounded exactly like those folks here who are trying to tell you how great it is.
but the longer I stayed involved and the more I saw behind the scenes---the less enamoured I became.
1) the "sweat equity" I saw being created mostly consisted of the new homeowner leaning on a broom smiling and talking while volunteers humped shingles up a ladder,carried drywall,etc.
2)HFH turned down my offer to donate NEW materials for a roof----they preffered to use the inferior "seconds" a manufacturer had donated----leading to a lot of wasted time and labor sorting out the crap
3)If you are AT ALL professional ----the incredibly wastefull work system of hfh will drive you insane. hfh would rather use 8 volunteers for 4 hours to accomplish what you can do in 1 hour alone
4) the constant stopping for prayers drove me crazy---what a waste of time---are we here to build a house or not?
5)the "partner families" ( is that still the current buzz word?) are un-prepared for the simplest forms of dailey business.One day several years after a HFH house was built,a falling tree branch glanced off the edge of a hfh house roof. instead of contacting a roofer---or the insurance company---the "homeowner"contacted hfh! I asked the project manager why hfh was even involved and he told me " she doesn't know how to handle something like this. BTW---there were countless bags of trash in the backyard that the family was too lazy to take to the curb,plus an old couch out in the rain that had been there so long seedlings were growing out of the cushions.
6) my direct obsevation was that the local hfh was a liberal white feel good opportunity-----I never saw a white "partner family" and I never saw a black volunteer.----there may have been---I just never saw them.
BTW---many people would consider me a flaming liberal
My suggestion to you---if you do get involved? Try to keep your eyes shut. don't pay much attention to what is really going on. keep yourself willfully ignorant. Expect to waste A LOT of time.
At the time---i didn't have much money---but I had a lot of time on my hands---so I gave what I had most of---my time and effort.
now I prefer to give money to OTHER organizations---and I hope to give time this winter to our local foodbank
good luck
Everything you said!!! Plus....who can stand and watch volunteers cut EVERY piece of siding with snips, do you have any idea what a piece of vinyl siding, cut on a 4/12 by your grandmother looks like.......I do.
Our local chapter is now in hot water because all they build is crappy ranches in older neighborhoods of 2 stories....no brick band, just unpainted block, crappy vinyl siding....they don't fit....all in the name of " a hand up, not a hand out"
HFH is not for us, it's for the guys that watch to much TOH and HDTV, have a bunch of money and tools, and no work of their own to do. They can go play carpenter, and contractor, and feel good. Strut around in a tool belt for a few days a week, then go golfing. My hat is off to them.
Now let's all bow our heads for devotions.....oh heavenly father, thank you for this glorious day, and our friends who have shown up to help this family build this ............
SHAZLETT, good to see you here again...maybe it's just me but it seems you haven't been around too much lately LOL.
To everyone, I can see the merits of arguments from both sides on the HFH issue. As a professional, yes there is disorganization, blatant inefficiency, mistakes in general, and HO's who turn out to be not so good choices down the road.
That said, I just finished a full day of Blitz (framing) weekend here in Mobile, AL, and I'll be back tomorrow. I enjoy working with HFH for several reasons, despite their organizational problems. One, I just like carpentry, and somedays I'd rather volunteer my time to carpentry instead of worrying about deadlines, budgets, etc. Two, I like showing less skilled people how to use tools properly and how to perform basic carpentry tasks--stuff they would otherwise learn from HGTV. With that comes the sense of confidence and accomplishment most come away with at the end of the day, something else I like to see. Third, I get to meet many great people who I might otherwise never have the opportunity to meet.
Now, as a professional, working with HFH has benefits, too: It's a good way to find future employees and fellow pros. My business gets exposure to the volunteers (who usually have plenty of money LOL). I can trade skills and experiences with other tradesmen...
Bottom line: I like doing this, and not necessarily because it helps the less fortunate. I just like doing it! If others here don't, fine! That's your choice. But please don't down those of us who do because of our choice.Jason Pharez Construction
Mobile, Alabama
General Carpentry, Home Repairs, and Remodeling
When quality is your only consideration
Jason: I think you hit the nail on the head: “I like doing this, and not necessarily because it helps the less fortunate. I just like doing it! If others here don't, fine!” Your are the core of what makes this thing work!!!
Stephen: You make some good points and yes, the ineffiency drives one crazy; during the prayers, I always just found a quiet task to do... Also, a number of years back an old timer volunteer told me, “don't try to understand the homeowners and don’t get too involved with them. You are a different kind of person, and wouldn't ever find yourself in their position. Just do the work and enjoy it.” The point being, if they had what you have (real life skills and a way serious work ethic) they wouldn't be where they are. See my above comment "plays Christian music for a living (no comment)" I remember your posts a few years (?) back about being on the roof with corporate manager and secretaries, knowing all the while you, by yourself, could do it 3x faster than the whole lot of them... and I also know from your past posts that your are a get it done kind of guy and the premiere asphalt roofer. My hat is off to you in that regard. But let me ask you this, when was the last time since you saw a nice ar$e on the roof!! :^) You have definitely paid your HfH dues, and it's probably best you have moved on. But do you really think your time/skills/intelligence is better spent in a soup kitchen? How about playing painter :{) or trimcarpenter...
As far as "local hfh was a liberal white feel good opportunity" mayby I don't totally fit in but once a (future) homeowner complainted to me about how the HVAC guy put the kitchen exhast outlet right in his deck area - and he did have a bit of a good point, but since the install was complete and had siding around it, it wasn't really a discussion item. (at the time I was a paid construction super) He said "my kids will play with it (the damper) and mess it up" I simply told him that he needed to control his kids! He didn't like that at all, and let me know - my reaction: I told him that not only was the exhaust in a good place but "he was gonna like it too."! Bottom line was though, guess who his go to guy when he had quetions and/or concerns on his house...
Matt
Edited 11/9/2003 5:06:58 PM ET by DIRISHINME
Matt,
I have zero desire to play painter or trim carpenter.( Really, haven't those "partner families" been through enough of lifes' hardships without having to live in a house trimmed out by a roofer?)
Seriously---I know a lot of carpenters here think everyone wants to be a carpenter---and 20 years ago I DID. but I am not interested in that now----I know better.
I am more interested in converting my time into money as efficiently as possible----and then giving the money away that I don't need.
Painting and trim work would be a waste of my time.
working at the foodbank----I don't see that as waste of my time. BTW the foodbank is more like a warehouse or collection center that then sends staples out to various independent shelters ,soup kitchens or families. I imagine most of what I will do will be heavy lifting----I am suited to that.and I have a lot of time available between now and mid march to do it .
yea, the painter carpenter thing probably wasn't a very good thing to say. Like I said, it sounds like you did your time with HfH anyway. I do think it's admiral that you can make time to help someone who is less fortunate or less prepared to deal with everyday living than you are.Matt
MAN, MATT- what the the he!! did I do to pi$$ you off??????????
at least five other guys in this thread have expressed concern, reservations, dissatisfaction, what have you, with your sacred cow, HFH. one even said they could kiss his azz. Marv took a undeserved shot at me earlier, implying i did not contribute to my community, and while he hasn't exactly apologized, he did later have the decency to respond to one of my questions in a direct and civil tone. Others have challenged my views including several who have done so while noting a little questioning and dissent is a healthy thing, and ALL, EXCEPT YOU, have somehow managed to maintain a mature, non-personal attitude about it.
out of truly monumental ignorance, you took a directly personal shot at me, accusing me of (how did you put it?) "choosing to live in the me society"!
What is your problem? is reading comprehension not your long suit? how many times do i have to write that HFH is a perfectly fine organization for some people in some ways, without having to concede or acknowledge that it is, without a doubt, the single most f***ing perfect institution ever conceived in the history of mankind's efforts to succor and console the downtrodden?
since it would appear your panties are in such an enormous bunch over my attempt to put just a little analytical perspective on HFH's societal contributions, let me try to explain my position for the slow kids in the class ONE MORE TIME. in response to another poster who advanced the position that HFH contributes to economic activity, i wrote that HFH does not make a statistically significant impact on the economy, locally or otherwise- THAT IS NOT, REPEAT, NOT, THE SAME AS SAYING HFH HAS NO SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON INDIVIDUAL PEOPLES' LIVES!!!!!!!!!!! perhaps i can put it in simpler terms (we'll see if they're simple enough for you): let's say HFH has built 150,000 houses over the last 25(?) years or so (that seems to be the commonly accepted number in this discussion). compared to roughly 100,000,000 (100 million) inhabitable domiciles (houses, apartments, condos, townhouses, tents, yurts, tepees, caves, etc) in this country, that is about 15 out of every 10,000 homes. now, if you lived in a town of 10,000 people and over the course of 25 years, fifteen (15) people lost their jobs, would you consider that as having a significant economic impact? did it significantly affect the lives of those particular 15 people at the time? yes, yes, a thousand times, yes! but would the overall economic activity or health of the community be affected? he!!, would they even notice? NO, OF COURSE NOT.
Are you honestly too d-a-m-n dense to comprehend (grasp, understand) these utterly simple concepts? is this just too complex for you? or should i just give up and drop the discussion to your level and tell you to kiss my hairy Italian a$$?
xoxo,
mitch
I am concerned about HFH's also, but I think you are out of line here.
HFH like a lot of groups tries to change one person's life at a time. I think they accomplish that for some of their homeowners. But more importantly they change some of those who come out and work or donate materials. In addition, publicity for them and their projects give a community a good feeling and softens the community.
I know a group of women here had plans to work on a house every few years. They did one and never got to another. I suspect that is common.
There is certainly a lot of waste in their projects - a $200/hr woman accountant pounding nails is not a good use of capital. But perhaps the accountant feels good enough afterwards to do some pro bono work.
i fail to see where pointing out some basic economic realities is "out of line", unless you think that anyone who purports to do good work is not only immune to any and all criticism, but even any analytical, objective (heck, even subjective- it's a free country) view of what they do and how they do it. surely you're not arguing that HFH, or any other charity for that matter, is beyond reproach under absolutely any circumstances or for any reason? a gentleman began this thread some days ago asking if anyone had any experience volunteering for HFH, as he was considering giving it a try. is the only proper response to his inquiry to say "holy sh!t man! it's the most incredible, awesome, mind-blowing time you'll ever have in your whole %&*#&^%*# life! every time i pound a nail for them i walk around with a spiritual <erection> for days! if i was rich i'd devote my every waking second and every last cent to HFH!!!!" ?
pardon the sarcasm, but i'm more than a little sick and tired of getting flamed for trying to play even a reasonable devil's advocate here, while suggesting there are other- perhaps even better- ways for a professional tradesman to use his skills and time to help the less fortunate. if you would bother to go back and read ALL of my posts you'll see where i have acknowledged, several times, that HFH is a fine organization. excuse the he!! out of me for refusing to say it's perfect. i have also conceded that most of what i've heard or read about it is probably somewhat outdated and it would seem that a great many chapters have made great strides toward fixing most of the organization's early difficulties. i've even asked questions about how certain things are done these days in an honest attempt to bring my information (and attitude) up to date.
as far as making a strictly mathematical or statistical analysis of HFH's economic impact, i stand by every last syllable. it's simply not a persuasive argument to say that HFH projects have any significant, measurable effect on even a small local economy. they're just too few and far between in the grand scheme of things. however having said that, i don't think supporters need to bother making that argument. HFH's good works alone are unquestionably sufficiently legitimate reason to pitch in if you are so inclined. they don't have to be all that AND a financial juggernaut, too.
even you concede the inefficiency of a $200/hr accountant doing this sort of work- it's called the law of comparative advantage. how much more good could an accountant, attorney, financial adviser/counselor or some other professional do for some of these poor folks by using their highly paid skills and knowledge doing pro bono work instead of trying to play carp or painter? geez, do the math- if say a $200/hr attorney (which is cheap these days) simply donated a day's pay in cash (8 hrs, or $1600- in other words, spent an extra day at the office on their behalf) he could buy 53.33 hrs of a skilled tradesman's time @ $30/hr. not to mention, the pro wouldn't have some suit in his way so he could actually get 53 hours of work accomplished instead of wasting it babysitting the weekend warriors. you're right, the warm fuzzy fun factor is undeniably a big draw for HFH contributors, but it is anything but an efficient way to put a roof over someone's head.
how many friggin' times do i have to say it? it's a fine charity for some purposes and for some people, both as contributors and recipients of their largesse. sorry, i just can't go along with some of you folks who would like me to concede it is utterly and completely flawless in all respects. how can i possibly be any more fair minded about this?
m
Edited 11/12/2003 3:23:47 PM ET by mitch
OK, 41 opinions have now been expressed, some pro, some con. The bottom line: there are still 150,000 more well built, affordable houses in existence than there would be without Habitat.
150,000 lovingly built, I REALLY, REALLY don't think I would say "well built" by any stretch. It keeps them warm and dry, and that's what they need, right?
"Well built". OK, I'll elaborate. In the Habitat homes I've worked on, here's how I'd rate things: Electrical and plumbing: every bit as good as the vast majority of homes. In some cases better: for example, I do part of the electrical, so we'll do things like run a spare 12 AWG circuit to a junction box in the attic for future use. Find a lot of those in spec houses ? Insulation : better than most homes: frequently the homeowner is helping and, knowing it will be his/her future fuel oil bills, they spray foam into air gaps and stuff fiberglass around windows much more contentiously than a pro contractor would do. Roofing: average, I guess. We use drip edge, ice and water shield, standard 3 tab shingles, ridge vent, etc. Foundation and framing: standard. Vinyl siding: ok, you undoubtedly hate it, but it is installed reasonably well - yes, a pro does a prettier job. Finish carpentry: yep, below average here. Just picture frame around windows and miters aren't perfect, but after caulk and paint they look fine to most people. Drywall taping and paint: less than average again. our corners aren't as crisp as a pro, etc. And when a crew of retired guys (with 20/20 eyesight but a dim memory) paints on a day with poor lighting, well you don't want to take a 500 watt halogen light and shine it an a very low angle to the wall, that's for sure. So, yes, if these were $400,000 homes we'd get a lot of callbacks for aesthetics. But I still think they qualify as "well built".
That's my honest opinion, and of course, other Habitat chapters might do things totally differently. I'd be interested if you disagree with my assessment. (And remember, we get the same footing inspection, electrical inspection, framing inspection, etc, etc, as everybody else - yes, I know that doesn't guarantee anything)
150,000 lovingly built, I REALLY, REALLY don't think I would say "well built" by any stretch. It keeps them warm and dry, and that's what they need, right?
1992 - Hurricane Andrew hits Dade county, all 27 Habitat homes survive with out structural damage.
http://www.miamihabitat.org/about_us/history.html
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Getting back to the first post:
If you like helping others, if you like to learn new things, if you like teaching your skills to others, if you don't need to be in control all the time, and you would like to donate some time, you'll love Habitat!
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
congratulations Marv, on your boosterism. unfortuneately it's not true---just wishfull thinking.
I meet all of the qualities you listed but I DON"T love Habitat.
A better line might be---"you might try habitat"
Cutawood-
Shazlett's superior logic has made me change my mind. Do not volunteer for HFH! The people who do are a bunch of arrogant no-nothings. Its a waste of time. I'm sure you could find much better things to do with your time.
And Mitch. I apologize for my original posting. It is now clear to me that the government/individual welfare system is out of control in this country. No more freebies from me!
Thanks to all for helping me to make better use of my time!
You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
wow!...I was just looking into the idea. Maybe i should just slop beans at the local mission.
cutawooda,
Maybe I am reading something in your message that wasn't really intended. I don't know.
I would encourage you to go right ahead and give it a try. Maybe you will involve yourself in it heavily for a few years----and 3 years from now you will be just as enthusiastic. Or maybe you will feel like I do.Or maybe it will remain like your admitted commitment to PBS---all talk and no action.
I simply assumed from your original post that you would be interested in the perspective of someone who had actually done what you are contemplating. Maybe I am wrong---but it now seems like you really only wanted someone to pat you on the back and tell you what a great thing you were gonna do. If that's what you want----marv can certainly handle that for you....
good luck and best wishes to you----let us know in about 3 years how it all works out.
BTW you must be in a warm state---hfh doesn't do much here in November.
I was interested in a perspective. I DONT want a pat on the back..I wanted insight because I was THINKING ABOUT IT. I did not realize how cynical people were. SOme of you shun others for merely thinking morally. Like the kid who offers to pass out the homework assignments for the teach. The other kids despise him for it.
cutawooda,
I really do wish you the best of luck with this.
It never occured to me that sharing a different perspective on an experience I have already had---and that you are contemplating embarking on ---would be construed as cynical.Frankly,when I start a new activity---I like to find out in advance what might go wrong from someone who has already done what I am starting.
And---I don't see that volunteering for HFH is any more or less moral than trying to feed the hungry, or working in adult literacy programs or volunteering for the cancer society.
good luck to you.
You guys seem to be running around in circles on this debate and not really getting anywhere.
I think H4H is like most national organizations - Things vary a great deal from one area to the next. One city could have a poor organization and a city 20 miles away could have a great one. So I think saying the organization is all good or all bad isn't possible, based on one perspective.
On the other hand - I also think we've only failed in doing good when we stop trying altogether. So even if you don't like H4H, cut them a bit of slack. At least they're out there trying. Don't help them if you don't want to, but let 'em alone.
The H4H debate has raged on this board several times without producing anything but some bruised egos. I doubt this thread will produce anything helpful either.Committee - a group that keeps minutes and wastes hours.
Wow, marv----you are one angry dude. that's the spirit!
silly me, I made the mistake of assuming that since you were free to give yourself over to naked boosterism and an obvious agenda to promote HFH---------that others were also free to share THEIR relevant experiences.
and silly me---since I pointed out that I was once as enthusiastic as you RE: HFH---that it might be usefull to discuss WHY i don't participate anymore.
BTW----that smug ,patronizing attitude you are displaying now????It was one of the common reasons I am not involved anymore.
Have fun.