I hired a guy a few months ago. 50 ish, skilled, hard worker. He was coming back after a heart attack last fall. Good references. Capable of learning anything and enjoyed it.
As time went on we put him on his own as fast as anyone we have ever hired. But also he started missing work. A day here, a couple there. Each time he had a verifible excuse.
I soon realized that he was simply worn out from so many years of doing this stuff. Bad knee, bad hip, doesn’t see well, 3 bad discs in his back, with the heart meds and all he catches every cold or flue he is within a mile of.
A few times we had to make major schedule changes to work around him. Finally this week he came to work limping like hell. Bad knee and hip again. 2 straight days of limping around someone house installing windows. He finally had to go to the doctor again yesterday.
Today he comes in with a cane and says though he can’t lift anything he is ready to go. Another bad disc. I sat him down and explained that he is not only endangering himself but those around him. Not to mention the fact the clients wonder what is wrong with him and worry about him injuring himself further.
I let him go. Helped him load up his tools. He said it was the best place he had ever worked and he was sorry. So am I. I feel like sh#t and just needed to vent. I don’t feel I made the wrong call, just tough to do it. DanT
Replies
You made the right call Dan have you considered keeping him on as the driver/backout/punchlist guy maybe bring him up as an estimater? At a reduced Rate it may be worthwhile having someone with proven knowledge and track record around hey gets the opportunity to transition and you get all the above if the $$'s work out.
You did what you had too either way tough day all around.
No, he really isn't office material. And I don't have need for a driver/estimator etc. But it is a good suggestion. I had already considered it. He has the absolute new build mind set. That is "I am done! Ok to go home now?" Can't sit still more than 20 minutes. I couldn't even come up with a suggestion for the guy as to what to look for. And I am rarely speechless lol. DanT
Wow, that's really a tough one to deal with...for both you and him.
But you did the right thing, IMO. He's done working with his tools, for wages anyway. He should either find a supervisory position, go out to work on his own or apply for disability.
The disability route at this point would make the most sense. He really needs a few surgeries to get it all back together. Thanks. DanT
Yup. There's no shame in taking disability, when the body is just worn out before it's time.
A lot of us have worn discs in the lower back, and bum knees too. I worked with sciatic pain for many years, and lousy knees since high school football. Other stuff too.
I'm lucky to still be pretty mobile and nearly pain free. Daily slow stretching helps quite a bit.
you would benefit from the book too. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
you would benefit from the book too.
Thanks but I've had my copy for about four years.
Dan,
I was hired by a local contractor 10 yrs ago. Had a guy in his early 40's on the crew that hated me at first. I was hired as the young foreman and he had been there for many years and was passed up. Over time we became a good team and friends.
Seven years into me working there he started having pains. He eventually had a back surgery. Took months after being released by doctor before boss would let him come back, I plead his case often and got him his job back. About three months after he was back he came to work limping, smashed his toe in a seat at stadium. Three months later he is still limping and doctor says, cut the toe off and get surgery to open veins cause he had no circulation. Recover from that and I again plead for his job and we convince boss to bring him back.
As time went on he started getting slower and seemed to have a sense of entitlement about him. " I been here 17 years, I can do the easy stuff" or " if anyone gonna get the easy stand around side of things, its me" he said these things often. One day boss catches him standing around and tells me, " I cought him one to many times, he is no longer efficient, find a reason and lay him off within a week."
That friday he broke his leg when he tripped over a stool at a bar. When he healed from that, I never had an opening so he didnt get called back. As his friend I told him what was going on and he said a few choice words, told me I should battle his case and thought we were being unfair to him. He never saw the other side of the coin, only his side of not having a job. That was the last three years of his job.
When I started my own company I was sent off with well wishes from old boss and some pointers. "Don't hire your friends and family, and if they didnt work here they wont work for you." were just a few.
I hired the guy anyway. When he started limping a few months ago I would have days that I left early and give him next day off to recover. Then the limping wouldnt go away and he wouldnt go to the doctor. I layed him off a month ago, told him I couldnt afford full union scale for what I was getting, said sorry, and sent him down the road.
He called yesterday to say he had a hip replaced and would be good as new in 3 months. I dont know what to do. I have watched him fall apart, I cant hide him in hte overhead like we could at the big company. He is a good hand, not a leader or an estimator though. He is a friend and he is basiclly black listed, since during his layoffs he worked for a few contractors that noticed he did nothing to maintain his health. I want to work him but he is a danger to me, him, and all around us. Would you give this guy a try if you were in my shoes?
Jeremy
The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Jeremy,
Your "pal" sounds like several guys I worked with on union jobs. That attitude is deadly, bad for morale and kills enthusiasm in everyone who listens to it.
The reason for it is usually alcohol. Drink a six pack or more every day/night after work, then spend the next morning drinking coffee and detoxing while making life miserable and even dangerous for those around you.
Edited 7/19/2008 8:54 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
He is not a drinker, but I did find out recently what he does like. I never noticed that he smoked with both hands. I did notice he was always broke.
He called me a few mins ago and asked if he had a job when he gets released. The only answer I had was that it would depend on work and I might try him for a few days and see what I think. Told him no more drugs or being lazy, in the nicest way I could. He went off on me about friendship. I turned it to business and told him for sake of friendship he would never work for me again.
Wish him luck down the road is all I can do.
JeremyThe bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
I turned it to business and told him for sake of friendship he would never work for me again.
That's a really excellent decision, well reasoned and easy to understand. IMO, it's also the best thing you could do for him and everyone else on the crew too.
It was his choices and self serving bad attitude that got him axed, nothing else. If he tries that with anyone else he won't last eight hours.
Eventually he'll get the message and change his attitude. That'll be healthy for his entire life and everyone in it.
Was the wonderful insight of my GF that gave me that answer. His DW seems to understand, he will someday, I hope.
Thank you for the support.
I am young, I know I will break down, but I have no sense of entitlement. If I want it I have to work for it, then work to keep it. Hence the self employment.
Being your own boss is not an option for everyone, some are made to follow, or feel they are. He needs school for business then to sell himself for estimating or project management, imho.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
The only thing I'd add is to avoid further contact with him, at least until he establishes himself in another work environment.
I've been through similar situations with employee friends on several occasions and I've found that a clean break is better for both sides.
You are probably right there, hadn't thought of it.The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
Interesting update on the guy I let go.
he called me today. The local is looking for someone to be a nonworking superintendant on a scaffold job for about 3 weeks of 6-12's.
He was offered the job of foreman, which is also basically nonworking on this one. Wanted to know if I wanted to go do the superintendant side.
I think I'm gonna take it, work is slow and no real commitment to my own jobs. Good money for a few weeks.October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
That's remarkable. It would seem to indicate that he respects you and would like to re-establish a working friendship.
Best wishes to all involved.
Very good Karma .
No, which is exactly the reasons I let my guy go. I was in managment before owning my own business. I have seen the senario you describe a number of times.
It goes from co-worker
to injured guy trying
to make it back to guy who can't cut it and needs help
to guy who feels that since he is giving it a shot he deserves a break
to guy who can't cut it and thinks he deserves it to where you are now........guy who preys on his friends to hold do a little and get paid the same. I let mine go now and that is one of the reasons. Plus if he hurts himself on the job and puts in a comp claim your day will be ruined I promise. DanT
Comp claim was a thought I had. Could see him saying he was fine till something at work. Paying for a hip would suck, seeing how my comp is already 17/100The bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
In Ohio in order to keep your discount you have to pay their wages while they are off on comp. I have a guy off now for the third month for a thumb cut. 3 months, $600 a week, no work. Not a pleasant experience I can tell you coupled with a slow year. DanT
Ouch! Haven't had a claim yet here, hope to keep it that way for awhileThe bad news is you've done exactly the right things to be exactly where you are today.
"IdahoDon 1/31/07"
I feel the pain, Dan. On both sides. That guy could be most of us; I'm heading for the big 60 in a few more years and yeah I still wrassle sheets of cement board into place alone, but I like it less each time I have to do it. One of these days....
On the other side, one of my best buds used to work for me. Big, strong, smart man. Proud. Dependable. Mohawk blood; in the old days he could walk the top plates with a 16-foot 2x12 rafter in one hand and a cup of coffee in the other, all the while eyeing the pretty girls across the road.
Then he had an accident on an ATV at his (and my) winter job on the mountain. Wrecked his back in a couple of places. The Company decided to off him so they stonewalled when he tried to come back to work and kept sending him to one doctor after another. For every upcheck his own doctor gave him, their doctors gave him another downcheck. It was in grievance and arbitration for years. They refused to assign him to light duty on his regular job (patroller) and 'offered' him a temporary position as a garbage collector. He refused; they fired him. He grieved it; the Company strung it out.
I hired him for every job I could in the summers. But he was still fighting the ski company and it was eating him. He started drinking heavy. He was destroying himself. The last job I had him on was bad. He couldn't go up on the roof; he'd get vertigo and puke. He had the shakes; fits of temper. He was broke all the time and always needing advances. I kept him to the end of the job and then didn't hire him back anymore. He didn't speak to me for 5 years. Threatened to pound me once 'cause I wouldn't give him a good reference.
I don't blame him, because I know what he went through and he didn't deserve that. And it hurt. Both of us....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I helped a guy out like that once Dino. He was fighting a comp claim and needed to get some income somewhere. I hired him at reduced wages with reduced duties. Eventually, the case went into court. Guess who got dragged in? Yep...me! My comp carrier had to chip into the settlement because we "contributed" to his injury. I've been guilty far too many times of "no good deed goes unpunished". All I can tell you is watch out when I decide to retire. Don't hire me if I look like I'm thinking of retiring because I know fifteen ways to get a paid vacation for life. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The really sad part is that this guy was not fighting to get compensation out the injury; he was fighting to be allowed to go back to work. That's all he ever wanted was the right to go back to his job. He was not trying to milk the company or the provincial comp board out of a red cent.
But even though he was upchecked to return to work by every doctor who saw him except the company doctors, they refused to let him. He was on light duty for almost a whole season...but although he could have refused to handle the sleds or lift victims or any other heavy work, he did the whole job during that time in spite of residual pain he was still suffering. I wrote a deposition for him testifying to that fact, but it didn't do any good. Somebody in upper management wanted him outta there and out is where they drove him.
That's why he lost it. He was just so effing angry at the injustice of it all, and rightly so. His attitude (and physical skills) on my jobs only went bad when the drinking took over. Before that, he was a great asset.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dan Im getting quite a bit from this thread so thanks .
I really never considered the downer side of things since I havent been bit . Its a wake up call to say the least as Im hiring more with my disablilites.
Had to share a little story though.
I was inspecting on the hospital that was being built here . Lots of trips . They paid for 23,000 dollars worth of inspections. I was there 1/4 of the time .
Got to know everyone pretty well through the winter there. They were of course pouring one pour after another . There was this guy that limped bad every step. I started watching him. He was in pain but he kept going. I finally had to ask the super about him . He said he wouldnt be getting any better , it was permanant . He stated hes out here instead of drawing deserved unemployment then he could probably get disability. Ill do what he wants to do as hes been with me 14 years. If he wants to stay and pull his load as long as IM here he will stay .
This thread got me to wondering how it turned out and if he ended up being on the short end of the stick doing it .
Tim
My guy was fighting to get an okay to get back to work too. He needed surgury that they were denying. I put him to work with limitations. My bad. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Do you do the exercises daily? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That's about as bad as it gets.
Do you think he would take well to education? That seems like his only hope.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I think you are right. But no I don't think he could sit in a classroom for 20 minutes. DanT
I think the estimator idea is a good one. The problem with the estimators that we have is most of them have sat in desks all their lives and have no idea about what it really takes to get the job done. I'm sure that it has cost our company quite a bit.
I worked with a guy who had done it all of his life, he had retired from the union. He was one of the best workers I've worked with and I learned more from him in the several months that he was one my job than the several years of working with some. But he was an awnery SOB, and I think that is why his next foreman let him go. He only worked three days a week (but did more then most do in a full week), and didn't take sh!t from no one. Its probably hard to have someone more than half your age telling you what to do.
A supervisory position might be in both of your best interests.
Dan
I feel you pain worse then you, because I'm that guy (almost).
I had a stroke 3 years ago.
Took me close to 6 months to get back on my feet.
Now, lack of some strength, balance issues, and old injuries haunt me.
I have tried to work for other people, but it's not easy sometimes.
I'm lucky enough to be able to work for myself at my pace.
I'll turn down a job if it's too much or I have a friend who works with me and knows my limitations and understands that I may not be up to it some days.
A real bummer, but that's life.
You did the right thing, period.
This fellow understands why you fired him.
He may not be happy and you feel lousy, but business is tough today.
Jeff
That's kind of scary to read since I'm in my early 50s as well. Thankfully my body isn't worn out yet.
yeah ... that sucks.
finally get a good one and he falls apart on ya.
he might make someone a good project manager.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Youre right it sucks.
Its always feels better to do it when its their fault .
This time it isnt .
Tim
Dan, there's nothing wrong with what you did, there isn't a more stand-up guy out there.
Older guys in the trades can sometimes move into lighter work. No demo, no framing, no lifting, etc. A guy came out to my job two days ago to get the satellite TV going. Brought in the receiver, made some connections in the lo-vo panel, programmed the gear, showed the HO how to operate. That's what I'll be doing when I wear out too much to carp anymore.
I appreciate the kind words. Funny how you can make tough decisions all along and once in awhile one eats at you. Great group of supporters here and I appreciate it. DanT
Dan, I'm 61, have worked for myself for 25 yrs, have guys working for me, have met you, and still still wouldn't mind working with you... do I have Alzheimer's?<G>It's nice to know my BS meter still works... you don't trip it.Regards Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Dan, less than a month ago, I was still hurting from a herniated disc that started about a year ago. I was useless. I couldn't lift a hollow core door. Then I got serious about doing the simple e-cises in the book " Pain Free". I did them every day. They are simple but they use up about 45 minutes time now. Also about a month ago I got a book which taught me how to sit, stand, lie, walk in a manner that decompresses the spine.
I feel like I've had a miracle recovery. I now have more positions with no pain than with pain, something that I can't remember having in 25 years.
Last week I jogged ten yards and was excited to tell my wife about it. This week I actually kicked around a soccer ball with someone for five minutes and sprinted some. I also jogged a couple hundred yards.
I'm telling you all this because your guy could benefit from that simple paperback book Pain Free.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, I read about that book here in a post from the tavern about a year ago. Was that your's?
Really cleared up my sciatica. I would also recommend the book to anyone in the trades with long time abuse issues. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Yes, I've been offering the book to anyone with joint pain. The book is good but it only works if they do the exercises LOL! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
sucks but you did right by him and you.... sucks to feel bad knowing you did the right thing... guess it sucks to have a heart....
I know you feel bad but you'd feel worse if something happened to him while working for you... that you in your heart of hearts knew he shouldn't be doing...
just as a guy learns how to do what needs to be done... he's too old to do it... thats why it's so much fun doing it wrong when you are young enough to...
my 80+ yo dad tells me it sucks getting old... but i'm glad he is..
peace
p
Dan
I think the hard part of this story for most of us is this guy is ourselves looking in the mirror.
Problem is it arrived 15 years too early.
Also sound like this guy doesn't take care of himself.
he catches every cold or flue he is within a mile of
Warning to all us tradesmen. Save for retirement. Start when you are 18.
Rich
"I think the hard part of this story for most of us is this guy is ourselves looking in the mirror."
That was one of my most vivid thoughts through the whole thing. I am the same age as he is. After the bike wreck and years of doing this type of stuff and the other bike wrecks I am certainly not what I once was. So I really feel for the guy.
I do try to do better to keep myself going and he doesn't. And I have tried to put myself in a postition to have a choice in most cases as to whether I go to the field or office. And he didn't. But I still feel for him. DanT
Somthing we all need to think about .
107193.38 in reply to 107193.33
"I think the hard part of this story for most of us is this guy is ourselves looking in the mirror."
As I said earlier. That was the thought that really weighed on my mind. He certainly had not taken care of himself. But none the less this business helped beat him up and now can't help him when he is down. Sad.
After posting this I had thought. About 12 years ago I met with a guy about buying his apartment building. He couldn't raise his hands above his shoulders. Said he wore them out a a painter/plasterer. Rotator cuffs junk and couldn't be fixed anymore. I remember telling my wife that I would never want to be that guy. After the accident I am on my way to being him. You simply never know. DanT
Edited 7/20/2008 2:52 pm ET by DanT
good thread Dan.No Tag
Dan, I didn't wear out, car accident did me in. I have seen many guys like your guy over the years. I think it has to do with the body you were born with. I have seen and know some carpenters that abused and still abuse alchol, that are just as spry as ever. I have seen some guys in great shape hit 50 and it was downhill fast.
when i was younger i saw many older carps let go even though they looked ok to me, all had very good attitudes about it but i remember them leaving thinking i too will depart my beloved trade someday