I was at a Christmas party a few nights back and was talking with an architect. Told him I recently started using a framing nailer and he said there are some studies out there that say the hand driven nails hold better, something about multiple hits being a better method that one shot. Any of you guys ever hear this?
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Replies
my 1st thought would be to consider the source...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
yeah, kinda reminded me of my attorney brother in law, he always plays devils advocate. usually gives you the opposing view, like he's on the debate team.
usually gives you the opposing view, like he's on the debate team.like people here, huh
is his name Bob?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I certainly FEEL like hand-nailed joints are stronger, probably because I can "steer" the connection, and a hammer actually presses the boards together.
Forrest - With four different sizes of Bostich guns
I was at a Christmas party a few nights back and was talking with an architect. Told him I recently started using a framing nailer and he said there are some studies out there that say the hand driven nails hold better, something about multiple hits being a better method that one shot. Any of you guys ever hear this?
That's a bunch of garbage. There are millions of houses and additions framed with guns. Don't even consider thinking about what he said.
I can think of several factors which could effect this.
1) Penny size for penny size hand nails are larger in diameter than most gun nails.
2) Clipped head framing nails have always looked suspicious in terms of pull out due to decreased head area.
3) Lack of "board snugging" with gun nails - easily remedied with a hammer after gun nail is driven.
Offsetting factor is that all gun nails are cement coated - helps with the pull out holding power. I know, you can get cement coated nails for hammer driving also.
I'm not so sure about the multiple hits theory especially with CC sinkers - hit # 1 makes cement bond on part of nail, hit #2 breaks cement bond and makes a new one, hit #3 breaks and makes a new one -- you get the idea.
Cement coated gun nail makes bond on hit #1 -- and never gets broken. Not sure if my theory has any validity - seat of pants.
It will take a lot more than casual conversation at a party to get me to give up my Hitachi framing gun.
I would be interested in the source for his comment.
Jim
FRH gun nails can be had even for clip head guns...
hand nails split their way in... (spread the material they're being pounded into)
gun nails crush their way in.... (little or no spreading)
hand nailing seems to have a higer % of splitting...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
That what this guy was saying, the way the fibers act with one method vs. the other. Not sure why nailer would crush the fibers though, nail has a point and it's shot perpendicular to the fibers, seems like it would still spread the fibers.
nail dia and point...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
so fatter nails, hand driven, split fibers. noticed the air nails were thin, but the ones I'm using have ribs, right word?
that's what I read..
yur using ring shanks...
think about how many hand drives bend over because of the material....
at one time we use to bet on how many folds you would or could get with a Jim Walters nail....
the single start tap was enougt to tip the head...
tap - SMACK! and then count the accordian folds...
nail may have went in all of a half/three quarters of an inch...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
the ones I'm using have ribsthey are ring shanked
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Doc,I haven't read all 54 posts yet, but gun nails usually have a blunter point than hand drives, so they crush more than split as they enter the wood.Bill
So, I take it your vote is with mine - shoot'em whenever you can.
Agree on all of your points - FRH nails are a relatively new innovation brought on, I believe, by code issues in certain parts of the country which address my objection to clipped head nails.
Whassa' Jim Walters nail? I don't need a source to buy any, don't sound like fun.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
eons ago in another life the nails we got were made by the Jim Walters Corp...
hench... Jim Walter nails...
they did trac housing and IIRC they developed Celotex or a similar prouduct to save on the bottom line...
they did have some kinda slick on site phnumatic framing jig...
it upset magement if you were using #2 or better lumber....
culls were the order of the day...
now you should have seen what went on in their truss plan...
it woulda gave Boss Hogg a cardiac...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"all gun nails are cement coated "Not so!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>"all gun nails are cement coated "
Not so!<<
Allow me to rephrase - "All of the plastic collated gun nails which my nail supplier carries are cement coated." He buys them by the full container direct from the manufacturers, specs and gets whatever he wants - sells cheaper than anybody else in town because he buys them cheaper due to his volume.
SS, spirals, HDG, annular ring - he's got 'em all.
His 15, 16 and 18 ga finish nails are coated on two sides. Other 2 sides are bonded into the strip so can't be coated.
Wire collated coil roofers are not, not sure about coil nails for framing or siding guns (don't own either one). Likewise, don't know the situation on clipped head nails.
Edjumacate me - what gun nails do you see that are not cement coated? Many of this supplier's nails are not coated with the "hand nail" yellow cement - they are coated with a clear cement instead - less lead maybe.
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I get electroplate shiners that are not coated.
I am pretty sure that the ring shank nails I get are not coated.I have a few cases of generic RS SS that are not coated.I know most are coated and no intention to pick on you personally, but did not want to leave incorrect information sanding
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks.
I'll pay closer attention, assuming I need to buy nails other than from my normal guy. Since his were all coated, I assumed they were from all manufacturers.
This fellow's business is a very cool place. Eagle Nail and Tool. All he really wants to do is sell nails. Demand has forced him to also sell air and power tools and go into the air tool repair business - all of which he does at very competitive prices.
If you bought the gun from him and have a problem - he usually will invite you back into the repair area and fix it while-u-wait - all the while BSing about the topic of the day. He has a really good grip on what parts break / wear out on all of the guns and has always had the needed repair parts on hand.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
It's great to have guys like that to do business with!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ask the archie if he knows the specs on HurriQuake gun nails. No comparison to any other nail hand driven or gun nails.
will do
Another factor to consider is whether you use the same number of nails when framing with a gun. I frame pretty well to code then hand framing, but with a gun I probably use a good third more nails.
I am sure gun nails aren't as good as hand nails, but neither are as good as ring shanked or spirals. Where do you stop?
why more nails, code requirement?
no... have gun will travel...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
well.... when it comes to handnails... the only ones i allow on our jobs are Hot Dipped Galvanized
so... generally speaking... our handnails hold better than our gun nails
but... 99% our nails are gun nailsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I was gonna read this and let it go but...
This doesnt have anything to do with what you said ;
Ive done a ton of tear out with what I buy . So judging from what I tear out gun nails are a b^tch compared to easiar hand nails to pull. Most of my experience is removing clipped head nails and hand nails .
Most clipped headed nails are counter sunk. When they are they dont normally work out unless its 1/2 inch plywood on a roof.
Tim
"why more nails, code requirement?"
No, just old and tired.
old and tired, that came up more than once yesterday when we were hand nailing the joist hangers. Went with all stainless and loose nails were included, palm nailer quit, second one in one month with minimum usage,we started swinging. My one buddy was taken forever, picked up his hammer and it was light as a feather, gave him a 22 oz and that fixed that.PS "swinging" means swinging hammers, anticipating the smart #### answers I'll get.
We use all full round head, cement coated, hot dipped galv ACQ rated ring shank gun nails for framing. If you have to pull something apart half the time the heads pull through the lumber before the shank comes lose.
I studied architecture. Here's how much practical building knowledge I learned from my coursework:...Think of architects as having an art degree. Most of the time they should shut the F up about anything structural.
If you have to pull something apart half the time the heads pull through the lumber before the shank comes lose.
I wunder if that is because the gun nail shank holds so much better....
another point... gun nail vs hand nail two LVL's together...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The point is being missed.
Nails are meant to be used in shear and not direct pull out.
Also with a hammer driven nail, the first of the day might be well driven but by the end of the day its nowhere near as good as the first. I know I changed over because of my elbow starting to give up.
Nail gun, every nail is driven hame the same.
Love the nail gun, pop after pop after pop, all the same.
So as often as is the case, the architect is full of it!
"Nail gun, every nail is driven hame the same.
Love the nail gun, pop after pop after pop, all the same"
I wish that were true. The nailguns tend to overdrive a little when first starting on a full compressor tank, and then even out as it runs. Or underdrive if everyone is all of a sudden blasting off sheathing as fast as he can...
If that degree of precision is important to you, use a pressure regulator and a pig on the line.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Dan, that is a false premise. Air pressure is not the way to regulate the depth of the nailset. The length of the driver does that. Most modern tools are adjustable. In my pioneering days, I used to take out the driver and grind it down to deliver a perfect set galvanized box nail for exterior trim. Anybody that saw us nailing with it were amazed that we could regulate our air so perfectly. Of course, since I don't normally help the competition, I never let on how I did it.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
my SN4 along with all the guns I have from that are are ground...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Well you do have to try and get the setting right, like any machine. Finish nailer got me beat all the time!!
"I wunder if that is because the gun nail shank holds so much better....'
That was my point.
Same here. I could have condensed the useful things I learned into a 6 week course. Even after practicing for 5 years when I came to build my first house I had no idea as to which nails to use. My wife still complains about my making her nail the subfloor with 3 1/4" galv. spirals. It took her more than 20 swings to sink each one. When the big one hits and Vancouver Island sinks into the ocean I'm going to ride that floor to safety.
Think of architects as having an art degree. Most of the time they should shut the F up about anything structural.
Maybe where you're from, but not where I'm from. Every Architect I know can design anything structurally and does. Joe Carola
Every Architect I know can design anything structurally and does.
Joe, I hope your architects only deal with residential structural requirements.
The current trend making its way through the states Professional Engineer and Architect Boards' is designating structural engineers being the only ones to engineer "significant structures."
Coming from the commercial side of construction, I have never had an architect provide structural drawings, other than through a structural engineer.
Not yanking your chain... just clarifying for the readers.
" If guns kill people, a spoon made Rosie O'Donnel fat!"
I'm talking about residential framing.Joe Carola
Architects build on paper... and in theory... The other day I was telling one how we were going to build the foundations of some houses. He said "Do you know how hard that will be to draw?" I literally and quite loudly laughed in his face, and then retorted "do you know how hard it will to build?" (This will be some complex concrete forming).
Back to the Q at hand. He is right - hand nails do hold better - when compared one to one. But as fingers said nail gun users most always use more nails, but I'd put it at closer to 50% more. Why? Because it's only another few twitches of the trigger finger, or bounces of the gun. And often gun operators cross nail too. With hand nailing every fastener is 3 or 4 hand/arm movements. With gun nails an extra one is just 1 finger movement. The only thing that throttles gun nailing is the cost of nails. Anyone who has been around a little has at some point or another had to remove a board that had like 1 nail every 2 sq inches - hand drives? Not even. Likewise, your archi could probably say that medium crown staples don't hold sheathing very well. Again, because he doesn't have the practical experience of removing a piece of sheathing that has been well stapled with medium crown staples. I wonder if he wants any advice from me about which CAD software is the best?
Edited 12/9/2007 11:05 pm ET by Matt
Isnt this all just a relative question? Perhaps it is better. But balancing the time versus effectiveness is important. If hand hammering is theoretically 2% stronger but takes ten times as long you are not going to be in business for long, your clients are going to have one very expensive house and their carrying costs for construction time are going to skyrocket.The bottom line is that a pneumatically nailed house is not going to fall apart and therefore the whole argument is moot.
exactly... !!
your clients are going to have one very expensive house and
For me, money is no object. On my next house, my architect will specify hand forged, hot-dipped, free range, cruelty free, depleted unranium nails, driven by left-handed virgins wielding titanium hammers, kept in a humidor (the hammers, not the virgins), and each nail will be driven in a single stroke, with all work performed at 60 degrees, 35% relative humidity,only in months that end with an "R."
There was a time when I thought the same thing way back when the only gun nails that were available were split heads uncoated. Used to watch 2 guys on the deck trying to free the jammed nail out of the gun thinking yeah some time saver. Used to hand nail decks and walls that's all I knew. Forman said fill up your pouch kid and get nailing. There were various tricks to handnailing, placement, blunting the heads on ends. Thought at one time any novice could use a nail gun with no talent. but technology has changed over the years. guns are better jammed nails are extracted quickly nails are better. And you have to use them to survive time wise. I don't think any quality is sacrificed.
. . . "I wonder if he wants any advice from me about which CAD software is the best?". . .You've hit on the age old soft spot of the architect vs. builder relationship.
I guess if you one were familiar with cad software (and in the industry there really is only 1 standard) it'd be appropriate for your comments. The way the original post made it sound was that the gentleman was casually conversing with the architect and they got off on the topic of nailing material with nailers or hammer.
I agree many architects may come off as know it all and arrogant. But in the age of specialization the notion of builder as designer particularily when it comes to commercial construction is by and large a rarity. Architects need to keep abreast of little tidbits of information from all sources related to the construction of a building in order to specify drawings. Some of the information is often debatable such as the nailing issue and if it is specified on the drawing as such and the contractor or builder knows it to be incorrect it should be up to him to correct the specification with the required documentation.
The fun's over boys.
It's back to hand saws and California framers.
P.S.
Any one know where I can pick up a Yankee screwdriver? I've got some drywall to hang.
A hammer is also a screwdriver. Pound those piffins in!
Any (small) plus would be greatly outweighed by the negatives: you can gun a nail in tight spots where you'd never hand nail, hand nailing can cause enough vibration to shake loose other joints, hand nailing (especially in a tight spot) you're less likely to put in an "insurance" nail, etc.
I agree with Mike Smith. Hot dipped galv. nails hold better than almost any gun nail.
1/2" crown sheathing staples hold better than any nail when they are new.
When tearing off roof sheathing the old staples don't have much holding power. The 8d nails used on the perimeter hold tight.
We still use air tools.
Rich
In an academical sense your arch friend is right, but in a practical sense it's a non issue.
How good is good enough? If gun nails meet the structural requirments with the prerequisit margin of safety, then there are few benefits to going with a higher standard that is so time intensive.
In construction we do some things fast so we can do others slow. Nailing is one of those things that should be done fast as there are many other activities that require our time and attention.
There must be balance between speed and effectiveness, even for the DIY homeowner or we might as well sell the current project and buy a much more expensive one that is finished how you like it. Time, even leasure time, is valuable and needs to be taken into account.
Happy holidays!
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Besides, the only way to REALLY do it right is to use Piffin screws.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
hmmmm...Feel hot breath on your neck?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Considering the local practice of NEVER adjusting the depth setting on nail guns to less than full hammer @ 125psi, I'd have to agree with the archy. There ain't much holding power left after the nail has driven completely through the 2x or sheathing.
Hand nails can't go too far beyond the surface
Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
I don't agree with the archy or you.To prove my point, I'll make the same challenge I make to you that I make to anyone that thinks hand pounders are better. Here's the challenge:We each choose our weapons and then proceed to nail two studs together. We each get ten seconds of nailing. Then, we each are timed to take apart the other's work. May the best man win. I'll intentionally crank my air up to maximum penetration even though my nosepiece is easily adjusted and sinks the nail the same no matte what the air pressure. Wanna bet a couple of milkbones on this contest? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Never did I say "Never", Jim. Hell. I gun 'em as much as possible. If I need to twist a stud with the nails, I Est"wing" it, Otherwise, AIR is king in the war of efficiency and strength/
But some of the sheating in Mid Tn is hanging on by the skin of the inner 25% of the board 'cause you CANNOT teach those bastids to reset the depth. Stick built walls (remodeling) have so many air-driven at the wrong depth/angle that the only thing holding them is.... air.
What do I owe you after I send two milk bones?Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
Whatta ya doing talking to an architect??
You've been hanging out here long enough. You should know better <G>
I've got to jump in here with my own observations. More often then not, gun nails are hard as h##l to pull out once in. Gun nails are often are not of the same large diameter as hand driven nails. Gun nails will not tighten(pull) two pieces of wood together as well as hand driven nails will. Clipped head will not hold as strong as full round head nail but you can find full head nails in gun nail style. Carpenter's, not all, sometimes don't bother with the depth adjustment and will over drive the nail with a gun Too often, especially when nailing sheeting to studs or rafters etc., the carpenter using a gun will completely miss the underlying stud and it's not easy to tell. With hand nailing, the it's very easy to know when you've missed the underlying stud and can renail.
he was pouring the wine, I always listen to a guy buying the drinks.
Back in the early 80's, I used to hear that objection all the time. I started carrying a document from Senco that proved that gun nails held tighter than hand pounded nails as demonstrated from their tests. It had something to do with the hot glue that occured upon impact.
The others have already mentioned that it's much easier to put extra nails in to compensate in areas that needed more holding power.
I like to point out to skeptics that in all my decades out in the field, I've never had to ask a hand pounder to put less nails in and often had to correct them and re-instruct them on the proper amount of fasteners in just about every component in a house. On the other hand, I have had to correct just about every carpenter I've employed about using TOO MANY fasteners. It's not uncommon to find guys putting in so many nails that it would exceed the holding power of the hand pounded guys work by three and four times!
These are procedural issues and it all comes down to supervision.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"On the other hand, I have had to correct just about every carpenter I've employed about using TOO MANY fasteners. It's not uncommon to find guys putting in so many nails that it would exceed the holding power of the hand pounded guys work by three and four times!"
Glad you pointed this out blue.
Too much of a good thing is a bad thing, and some new carps can't seem to grasp the concept. Had to repeatedly show one young fellow how his machinegunning habit was practically broom-sticking the wood, leading to very weak joints.
Plans are stronger when drawn with a pencil. Those machine made plans tend to not hold up as well unless they have toenails on them.
This is one of those discussions that comes up when guys have too much time on their hands...
Tell the architect that you've seen studies that say hand drawn house plans are better than CAD!
they are....
ROAR!!!!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Very true!!!!! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Well, I'm just a 'stupid f'in architect with an art degree' (and five nailguns) ...
With hand nails, head size goes up with nail size - with nailguns is isn't necessarily so. So a same-size collated framing nail might not have as large a head and therefore less pull-through resistance.
But I'm just stupid I guess ...
Jeff
Edited 12/10/2007 10:45 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
i've yet to drive nail thru my hand with my hammer
I once sewed through my finger with a sewing machine.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Yeah, I usually stop after I've set it! Ouch, I hate it when that happens!
Edited 12/11/2007 7:08 am ET by Danno
"i've yet to drive a nail thu my hand with my hammer"
True, but having gunned several through my fingers and having hit my thumb with my Eastwing, I'll take the pain of the gun nail every time.
That moment just after the hit. No pain or blackened nail yet - but you know it's coming, along with days of throbbing....
when I used to shingle, I drove nails thru fingers about three times I think. Two for sure that I know of.The worst damage I ever did to my paw with a hammer was one time I was sitting on a 2x6 wall and nailing the top plate on. It needed some tweaking, so I knocked it over and was holding it in place while driving the 16d a couple inches away with my rigging axe. I gust of wind diverted my aim and the head of that axe came down on the meat part of my thumb way up mashing it between the steel and the plate. I am the kind of guy who does not bruise easily ( up until the last year or two anyways) but half of my hand was purple the next morning. And using it even to wave at friends was not a good thing to do.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Blunt force injuries are excruciating, but for some reason fun to hear about.
" 98082.53 in reply to 98082.1 Well, I'm just a 'stupid f'in architect with an art degree' (and five nailguns) ...With hand nails, head size goes up with nail size - with nailguns is isn't necessarily so. So a same-size collated framing nail might not have as large a head and therefore less pull-through resistance.But I'm just stupid I guess ..."Me too, about the arch degree and the pile of nailguns, not the stupid. You have that covered. Show me the nail in a house frame that is under load in tension.
We hand nail everything with 20d nails and use mallets. And we are faster than anyone else alive.
Also we never make mistakes and have never had to pull a nail ever. Never.
Oh and all the plans we get are perfect. We pass every inspection the first time.
Did I mention we hand nail everything with 20ds?
My right arm is 10lbs heavier than my left because I hand nail 20ds.
<Did I mention we hand nail everything with 20ds? >
You probably use that 32 oz. framer that DieselPig was braggin' about some time ago!
Forrest
Nah, he just uses his fist.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
We use gutter spikes and hand pound them with titanium sledge hammers in one lick! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You forgot to mention that you guys are better looking and can work in shorts and t-shirts year round. Dont need to bundle up for winter weather!!
Im surprised your left hand is lighter. I thought you used your left hand to gang cut while you where nailing with your right :)
Enjoyed your post, It was a nice break.Live by the sword, die by the sword....choose your sword wisely.
Oh yeah, and all you wimps that wear underwear . . . . . http://www.utilikilts.com/index.php?page_id=3 real men don't
>>Show me the nail in a house frame that is under load in tension.<<
Rafters / trusses to top plate in a wind storm?
'Course this gets covered in my area by required hurricane ties which place their nails in shear. Not sure if that is a country wide requirement.
Sheathing nails with any wind before the windows / doors get installed?
Other than that I am at a loss.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Roof sheathing nails every time a high wind blows. Shingle nails on the roof. Wall sheathing nails on the lee side during high winds.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Agree to all - I was just trying to point out that there were some rather critical nails that did function under tension.
Shingle nails on a roof have to be disqualified since the question referred to something like "nails in tension on the frame of a house". :-)
BTW, I like my gun nails. When I need want / more holding power - I just switch to annular ring nails and I know how to adjust the depth of drive without ever going close to the compressor.
Hitachi full round head.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"Rafters / trusses to top plate in a wind storm?"
No, those are toenailed. Think about it for a moment and you will see how they are in shear.I will agree with the shingles, but I did stipulate in the frame. I suppose you could look at the roof decking. I think I have to give you that one.
I guess I'm feeling like my ego can take a bruising today, so I'll stick my fingers in the fan--How about at corners (where top plates are joined--seems like there could be tension there, or on a top plate splice?) Seems also that all sheathing nails would be more in tension (or at least not in compression--shear?). Nails fastening trusses or joists to plates, again it is more that the joist/truss member is in tension, so I guess the nail is experiencing shear stresses (maybe not the correct terminology--I am definitely not an architect, don't even play one on TV). If no nails were in tension under load, they wouldn't need to have heads at all, as nothing would be trying to pull them out, nor would annular rings or cement-coating be necessary. Seems like the nails holding the studs to the plates are probably in compression though.
Sorry Danno. I don't even know where to start.
You should go take your cough medicine and come back after you open a book and get an understanding of the terms.
Two things are certain. Danno does not understand how to differentiate loads and there is not one nail used in compression. I guess when you're installing the nail it is under a compression load. ;)seriously... Nails are for shear loads primarily and to a very small extent tension loads, a very, very small extent.
My bad--I thought you were saying all nails under load were in compression, but apparently you were saying they are in shear, which is pretty much what I was meaning. I think if you get down to technicalities, wouldn't nails in shear be partially in tension and partially in compression? Shear does try to pull the nails out, so there is some tension, but there is also compression as something has to counteract tension to make for shear.
Rethinking this--I'd say that there are two elements of compression acting in opposition to each other, the reaction then being tension--the nail would stretch if it could, but it cannot, so it shears off. Well, that's it on one cup of coffee and I've got to run.
Edited 12/12/2007 7:54 am ET by Danno
Danno - shear forces act at acute angles up to 90 degrees from tension and compression.
Jeff
and e to the i pi = -1.
"Show me the nail in a house frame that is under load in tension."Not to argue, just persuing the mental exercise, I can think of two possibly, tho not sure.One would be strapping on a ceiling as it holds the SR up.The other would be the ways I;ve seen some idiots frame decks, not that that applies to any discussion of quality work.
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One would be strapping on a ceiling as it holds the SR up
What the heck is strapping............never heard of it.........;-)Joe Carola
Wanna take my milkbone challenge? I can put ten tiimes as much head size in a piece of wood in two seconds as your hand pounders can. If an architect wants additional nails because clipped heads are used...all they have to do is specify it. Yes, the heads are larger on hand driven nails, but it's much easier to put additional nails in with the gun. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm not in favor of hand-nailing, Jim. I pointed out that I have and use 5 nail guns including a Hitachi NV83 coil framing nailer. There's no way I would want to hand-nail anything unless I had to.
I simply a) object to the negative generalizations about architects that would not be tolerated in other forums and b) believe that there may be some validity to certain nails holding better than others. Like .131 over .113 for instance.
That's all. Don't eat milkbones.
Jeff
Architects that think they know how to build when in fact they do not are very irritating to the rest of us. It is unfortunate that architecture schools in general do such a poor job of educating architects. They should skip all the rhetoric about changing the world and how great they all are and focus on teaching the next batch to be good at what they do.
The best architects I have met have one thing in common, engineering degrees.
A degree in architecture is an art degree. It doesn't prepare anyone to build anything.
You can argue that all day, but I know of what I write. The more you deny it, the more you prove which camp you're from.
Thanks for contributing so much to my education.
I'm sorry you are so irritated by those who are educated. Definitely they should put you in charge of architecture schools.
I'll get right on it ...
Jeff
Edited 12/11/2007 10:52 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
"Thanks for contributing so much to my education.I'm sorry you are so irritated by those who are educated. Definitely they should put you in charge of architecture schools.I'll get right on it ..."They didn't do a very good job educating you apparently. I have an architecture degree. Educated people don't irritate me in the least. In fact I'm currently working on another degree. Those that think they are educated for one thing when they are in fact educated for another irritate me.
The majority of residential architects I have met know very little about building anything. Since I hold the same degree as most of them I have a pretty solid understanding of the education they received.
I think it is unfortunate that many architecture schools focus so much on theory and so little on technology or engineering.
You know there's another common thread among competent architects I've worked with. Most of them think their schooling was a joke.Stop being so busy telling me how more educated you think you are than me and read what I actually wrote. Oh wait... you're an architect, why bother listening to anyone else?
The best archy's I have worked with all have one thing in common.... They either worked their way thru school swinging a hammer on a frame crew or worked in Remodeling at some point in their life.
Now if Archy's had to do some sort of construction internship it would give them a better understanding of what is going on in the field. I like having engineers and architects on the job that are genuinely curious about how things go together.... they usually comment that it helps them when clients ask budget questions....IE they have an idea what stuff costs and why.
james
I had one archy work for me that I can remember while he went to school. He was a very bad carpenter/laborer and he ended up being a very bad archy. His work ethic sucked. He hated working.Do you think there is some relationship between the two? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
yup, I think if someone's work ethic sucks then they will not excell in anything they do... unless it is a job where they get paid to find ways not to work, but that would probably be too much work to be bothered with.
james
It's the same in every profession -- you have those who get their hands dirty and those who operate in ivory towers. The ivory tower types can sometimes come up with some good ideas, but they always need a "buffer" of dirty-hands types who maintain touch with reality.
It works the other way too. Any craft where the craftsperson only does what he's always done and never fits it to a larger theoretical framework will not only never achieve much, he's apt to do some really stupid things when faced with unfamiliar circumstances.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
It's wrong to generalize about architects. They serve a different master than house builder do. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
When I've worked on larger crews I seem to find a way into being the fix-it guy when other carps screw up. It's interesting thinking through how to fix a major blunder, I get to carefully tear into new construction, and sometimes a section is just a total demo and rebuild.
For those who poo poo properly placed clipped head gun nails, I'd suggest that perhaps they haven't demo'ed much new construction.
As for hand driven vs gun, we see far more poor nail habits with hand driven nails in our remodeling adventures. When hand driving there is a huge incentive to use too few nails, and often it's much easier to demo a hand driven section vs. the more prolific gun nails in a newer area.
There is no doubt that a carpenter should be using both gun nails and sinkers in most good construction, so we probably shouldn't be arguing one vs. the other, but rather two alternatives vs. one.
As primarily a finish carp, who frames to make the finish easier, I once upon a time came into a lead carp position with four carpenters that had been hand pounding nails for several months on some fairly nice projects. I couldn't believe it the first day, but shut my mouth the first few days to see how everyone interacts and what the level of quality and productivity was.
To make a point we divided a section of interior walls in half, with them on one half and me on the other. I like to chalk and draw out the entire layout before starting so they even had a two hour head start as I worked a wider hall into the arch's design (construction error *shrug*).
Hand nailing wasn't their only fundamental error, only one of the guys had a good level and he never looked at the bubble square on so nothing was plumb, and they had a terrible habit of assuming good framing was mostly a matter of fudging dimensions so walls could fit together.
I'm a slow framer by the standards of the guys who taught me (especially that long legged college wrestler with a wicked 24 oz. swing and well worn hitachi gun), so there's a real problem when I can frame as fast as the other 4 carps combined.
I had to tell them that if a carpenter doesn't have a well functioning framing gun, finish gun and few accurate levels they quite simply aren't going to work out on this crew, regardless of how long they've been on payroll. Instantly productivity doubled and left time for things like accurate layouts and plumb walls.
We do some things fast so we can do other things slow.
Happy holidays
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
'We do some things fast so we can do other things slow."That pretty much sums up rough frame carpentry. Excellent summation. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I think it's pretty narrow-minded of you to generalize against architects, especially when you qualify your statement with "the more you deny it, the more you prove which camp you're from"If you want to discuss it, then let's discuss. If not, why basically say "nothing you can say will change my mind"?The forum is (for the most part) free speech, so you can say what you want. But in the end it's a discussion forum, not a one-word-to-end-it-all forum.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
Just read a poll that had Architects as the second happiest profession - just behind Firefighters. So they can probably handle a bit of abuse.
Well, what's the point in abuse? What does it do to further communication? It simply makes the abuser feel better about his pathetic self.
Forums like this one weren't intended to promote abuse - they were intended to advance communication about specific subjects, in this case high-quality homebuilding.
High quality homebuilding is in the best interest of owners, contractors and architects - it is one area where we all find commonality in sharing ideas rather than bashing each other. Abuse simply emphasizes differences for no reason.
Jeff
Easy now. My comment was intended to be facetious. I practiced architecture for years before moving into construction. Builders complain about everyone involved in their projects. Subs, suppliers, inspectors - why would architects be exempt?
When I get a bit of time, I'll start a thread with links to my favorite house designers. Look out for it and add to the list.
"A degree in architecture is an art degree. It doesn't prepare anyone to build anything."Ok, it was a silly sweeping statement and you set yourself up for criticism. But I did manage to read your subsequent posts and I can see that you must know like everything else, it's subjective to the individual.Some archys are nothing but glorified designers/decorators who have never gotten their hands dirty, driven a nail, or understand much about the material they're designing with even though that is their job.Others are well informed individuals who have a sense of how things go together and have good communication skills with the builder and customer and when called upon, will come to the job site and work out creative solutions to problems that always crop up. Also they will listen to the builder and utilize their ability to solve problems as well. Many of them have worked as carpenters and have built things themselves. I have worked with both types and several who fall somewhere in between.My BIL is a licensed architect, engineer, and he worked for several years as a carpenter in construction both commercial and residential. He also works part time doing inspections. Not much...no, I take that back...NOTHING gets by him, AND, he is one of the most non-egocentric persons I have ever known.
It's much more comfortable being non-egocentric in your demeanor when you actually have a relatively high degree of both experience and knowledge. You don't have to posture if you have arrived.
We could all go back to cut nails which have a better holding power than either gun or wire nails. The lumber species the nail is driven into can make a huge difference . IIRC 3 1/4" gun nails @ .131 aren't even legal in a lot of stuff here because they do not meet code for shear walls. Shear wall nailing schedules are based on common nail diameters.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
the original post did not differentiate between different sizes of nails. That is probably the problem in this discussion so far. same nail whether dricven by gun or hammer will do the same thing. The diff is that most gun nails are not the same as most hand nails
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in what way
"in what way?"
Diameter.I actually don't mind the architect making the comment because a thread like this is fun every once in a while to stir up a hornet's nest that isn't political. Most competent framers know when the things they are nailing together aren't getting put together solid enough. They take the necessary measures to apply more pressure, put more nails or do whatever is necessary to make the job solid. I started framing before guns were common so I've witnessed bad framing techniques with all size nails. Diameter matters but cumulative diameter can fix most situations. The same goes for head shape and size. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
re: diameter & the math
Many gun nails are @ .131" diameter whereas IIRC hand nailer 16p is more like a .161" diameter. 0.030" doesn't seem like much but figuring my math is correct and using a 3" nail which is more like a 12p.
Gun nail of .131 over 3" has a surface area of 0.6173 sq in. (circumference X length)Hand nail of .161 over 3" has a surface area of .7587 sq in.
Favor goes to the hand driven nail.
say 3 are required by code for the connection
Gun nail area of 3 ea = 1.852 sq in contacting woodHand nail area of 3 ea = 2.276
But it's easy to set 4 nails with a gun (and for this example won't be a detrimental factor to the joint, over-nailing & splintering is just as bad as too few nails) especially at the end of the day and your arm is screaming.
Gun nail area of 4 ea = 2.4693 sq in.
Favor goes to the gun nail.
The difference of 0.1933 sq in between 4 guns and 3 hands doesn't seem like much but multiply it out over the entire project.
like said earlier, there's need for both types on nearly every site.
:0
And I forgot to add on the part of shear loads which I couldn't find. All those numbers were just playing with a calculator and forgot to search for the shear load of the 2 kinds of nails.
But think about this, with gun nails being 80% the size of hand nails the consensus is (and I heartily agree) that pulling gun nail is harder (not just the volume of nails) than a hand nail. So something in the method gives that smaller nail an advantage.
Shear: figure equal number of nails into a joint (go back to 3 like earlier) all things equal the guns will end up 20% short based on cross section. But the ease of adding the 4th gives gun nails a 40% advantage over the handnail (4 vs 3).
Edit typos
Edited 12/13/2007 6:17 am ET by john7g
good rendition, but do the math again. What you went through dealt with surface area of the nail, which is a tiny part of the holding power ( absent glue coating ) The main thing that measures holding strength is the amt of wood displaced by the shank, so the diff in cross section volume rather than surface area is the thing to compare.
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Thanks
The diffs will still be 80% against the guns nail for nail.
Seems the guns greatest and most obvious advantage is the strain relief on the user; let's him/her focus extra effort where it's needed (maybe hand nail) and not burn up the energy banging studs & plates together.
Was trying to think of places where 1 additional nail would be detrimental, first one that came to mind was rafters at the top plate (when not using clips), and most toe nailing but an extra 1 and maybe even 2 wouldn't seem to bother a stud/plate connection.
And where an extra nail wouldn't make a difference... maybe when building up headers? But then again building headers is slow, boring & tedious after the cutting is done, so maybe the gun is a requirement for building headers just to meet the minimum nailing?
Was trying to think of places where 1 additional nail would be detrimental, first one that came to mind was rafters at the top plate (when not using clips), and most toe nailing but an extra 1 and maybe even 2 wouldn't seem to bother a stud/plate connection.
When I did framing I always hated having to absolutlely put three nails in each joist to plate or truss to plate connection because the nails often split the wood and I ended up with something with the nail holding ability of Shredded Wheat.
I still remember the time the boss didn't bother to look at the plans and had me nail a plywood shear wall on the porch--next day he said he found out they just wanted brick columns, so I had to remove the plywood! Talk about way too many nails! That was the time too that I broke a 12' tall 2x4 in half by trying to pull it loose from the top plate. Boss says, "Just yank on 'er, it'll pop loose!" Crack!
Agree on two points!
;)This has been a fun thread, full of entertainment, and a lot of the same opinions expressed in twenty different ways making it look like there is argument going one.Also that competent framers know how to get it done right on various ways . The most common error I think I have seen of incompetency is overdriving sheathing nails, but that probably comes from putting the young buck on the gun to nailing off without checking or instructing him.
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Do you mean in what way are most gun nails different from hand drivens?It has been mentioned several times in the thread that they often have a thinner shank and clipped heads or D-head instead of full round.It was also mentioned about the cement coating.Neither of these is totally hard, fast and always true, but you are somewhat more likely to find coated nails in guns and thicker shanks being hand driven.But you can buy what ever you want to buy, I suppose even uranium nails, if you have reason to buy it.Don't know if you caught the post about the coated nails explaining it - the shank is coated with one of two things, either a thin plastic, or an adhesive type glue. Both work the same way. The heat of friction and pressure melts it as the nail is being driven. it immediately sets up hard again and the nail is glued in place, giving strong resistance to pull-out.Andy, as you go forward in your career, take good note of the discussion between two architects in this thread, and some attitudes towards architects in general. Open your mind to the fact that architects are important to this industry. While there are a great many with attitudes that they are the Gods of construction, there are also a great many good ones who are able to listen to tradesmen and learn from them and work TOGEHTER with us without displaying an attitude of lording it over us.
Learn to spot the good ones and smile when you see them
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
studies out there that say the hand driven nails hold better
That's true, but the question is whether it is enough better to make any real difference.
Air nailing is fine, if you are concerned, use a full head air nailer. I wouldn't suggest going back to hand nailing for the modest additional increase in strength.
To really know how a nail holds then you should pull a few to test the theory. Nailers shoot nails with adhesive that heats up with the friction and sets up when set. After you have pulled a few million nails like I have then you would conclude that gun nails hold better. The architect probably has never pulled a single nail in his life. I am sure there is science to back up this claim but I don't have the time to delve for it.
Hey Mike,I have pulled some out since my beginning this thread and there plenty stubborn. On the other hand, the stainless steel nails, hand pounded, no glue and smooth shank came out easier.
Edited 12/12/2007 5:00 pm ET by dockelly
Hello. I red the book by Larry Haun " The Efficient Carpenter" Taunton Press.
He also writes that hammer is better than pneumatic guns. Maybe because he is old carpenter or maybe because, as he puts it, pneumatic guns are very dangerous.
Watch him drive nails on video, it's like clockwork. One swing sets the nail, the second swing sinks them everytime.
Very rhythmic watching him drive nails. I can see how he likes to hand drive better than gun nail. Just as fast for him, but he's been driving nails much longer than I've been alive.
Woods favorite carpenter
FKA- Stilletto
Depends on the nail and the kind of joint.
Sometimes the hand nails are thicker and have a larger head.
But his theory about multiple hits is hogwash. The holding power is directly proportional to the wood displaced by the nail - in other words, the size of the shank.
besides, there are a lot of us who can sink framing nails with one lick, so there would be no multiwhacking going on.
How much Christmas cheer had he consumed?
;)
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
What did you do, drink a pot of espresso? :) There must be 10 posts in a row from you, sort of a nail gun approach. As to how drunk he was, I was in no position to say, just left an earlier party myself.
Edited 12/12/2007 7:39 pm ET by dockelly
I'm pretty sure Piffin's got at least a dozen clones of himself.
LOLDid you see my thread on staples vs cleats for flooring?
Nope.
Now I'm gonna have to explain to DW why I'm spending even more time here LOL
" But honey, its written by a guy I met for lunch last year"
My DW thinks anyone who spends time on the internet must be a creapy weirdo. Wonder where that leaves me? :-)
we'll fix that this spring, golf at Farmstead. Probably make things worse with your wife. :)
supervising them all is getting to be a chore.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You'll just have to clone your wife to keep all of you in line.
I don't knowhow the thread got so long before I found it. I had to ignore a lot of the posts or there would have been twenty from me, LOLSo many seemed to be saying the same things though. They made the point that hand nailing and gun nailing are two totally different systems, but on a equal nail per nail comparison, if that is even possible given the other differences, I don't believe your buddy is right. I do wonder which way he was talking about
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130 posts later and the bottom line is that hand nailing is not better than gun nailing. If it was guns would not be aloud to be used. So all these points that everyone keeps bringing up are moot. Guns will still be used. Anyone who uses hand nails and not a gun for framing is living in the past. Larry Haun can say whatever he wants, doesn't mean he's right. He's just another framer that has an opinion.
You can talk about compression loads and shear loads or whatever loads you want, they are all moot points because we will still gun nail every member of a house with the required nails.
Who cares who has an Architect or Engineering background on this forum and what you know about nailing. Doesn't prove anything about nailing a house with a gun or by hand. I've been framing for 24 years now and could care less about compression loads and shear loads when nailing. All I care about is building the house right and structurally sound and using the right nails for the job.
Joe Carola
Edited 12/13/2007 9:46 am ET by Framer
yeah.... but you still don't know what strapping isMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
yeah.... but you still don't know what strapping is
I don't want to know because it sounds like something crazy......;-)Joe Carola
ahm gonna tell ya anyways...
strapping is furring.... furring is strapping
remember ?
furring the ceilings ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I'm just kidding. I know what strapping is..... remember I did it when I lived in Cape Cod. Never done it again. We don't strap in NJ. I was just busting Piffin because of the wars people would get in about who straps and who doesn't strap.Joe Carola
We don't strap in NJ??? Well SOME people do!
I do specify strapping from time to time ... and my degree isn't from Troll University ;o)Jeff
"Strapping" ? Out here that is a Simpson product used to hold pole barns together or mufflers on.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
notice how politely I ignored your Q and didn't take the bait?
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notice how politely I ignored your Q and didn't take the bait?
Yes, but did you notice I wasn't looking for a debate, I was just joking?Joe Carola
i nu u nu.... but i didn't think u nu i nu that u nu.....
i nu about the Cape Cod bit.... nu ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I nu u nu. I nu tu. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I hand nail using my 'guns' :-) All 16" of them
and yes, I do have a conceal and carry permit for them, although if I'm wearing a tank top, they aren't concealed
I just couldn't resist ;-)
I'm going to the gym now.
Edited 12/13/2007 7:36 pm ET by Timuhler
I hand nail using my 'guns' :-) All 16" of them
That's what guns are for right........using them as a big hammer.......;-)
You better go lift and get ready to wrestle Joey. I just bought him a wrestling dummy and it came today. You had to seem him throwing that thing. He started in the living room and then my wife yelled and we went in the basement on the mat.
http://www.cuvo.com/dummies/freestyle.htmlJoe Carola
So Joey is growing up to be a strapping young man, eh?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Uh oh, I think I can see it :-) That dummy has my name written all over it.
The absolute best framer I know of was my former boss, perfect job every time. Gun nails only for putting together headers, partitions, corners and nailing on plywood. Hand nails for all stud to plate connections. The difference is definitely noticeable, much cleaner tighter job, correct amount of nails used. I cannot afford to use that method, I wish I could. I once counted 30 nails in a 2' window sill plate and still did not have nails in every spot needed. The argument can be made that hand nailing is better because the placement of nails is more correct.
Does it really matter? It seems to me that most forces on a nail are going to be in shear rather in tension (except for violent winds). It also seems that except for the nails at the top of the building that gravity is going to push all the parts together. Am I wrong?
found it....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Doc,tell him I'm convinced! I'll never use a nail gun again!!!! Even my pin setter I use in the shop!!! (so the nail heads dont show). What an ultra maroon, he's more mixed up then a feather in a whirlwind. Then he whipped out the crack pipe I guess?
Architects!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ughhhhhhhhh, Lou