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Handrail Question

jimmiem | Posted in General Discussion on March 24, 2009 07:55am

I’ve got a straight interior staircase that has a full wall on one side.  The other side is open halfway up the staircase and closed from the midpoint to the top. The full wall side has a handrail that runs from the bottom of the stairs to the top. The other side has a handrail that runs from the newel post to the midpoint where the wall begins.  I would like to add a handrail to the wall from the midpoint to the top of the stairs. How should the bottom part of this handrail end?  It is not in the same plane as the rail that runs from the newel post.  Should it take a turn and join the bottom rail? Should it just end where the wall does?  Should the newel post be relocated inward?

Thank You for your suggestions.

 

    

 

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Sphere | Mar 25, 2009 12:31am | #1

    It should be continuous, there fore, you need an "S" to connect the two.

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

     

    They kill Prophets, for Profits.

     

     

    1. Piffin | Mar 25, 2009 12:56am | #2

      this is one of those locations where safety and codes trump good style. I have always had a problem with that detail and don't have a good solution that satisfys me 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Mar 25, 2009 01:01am | #4

        Exactly. What a PITA for a few inches of rail.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

         

        They kill Prophets, for Profits.

         

         

      2. YesMaam27577 | Mar 27, 2009 04:41pm | #32

        >>"I have always had a problem with that detail and don't have a good solution that satisfys me"I agree.Since the code states that the rail must be continuous, I keep hoping that the manufacturers will come up with a "Y-connector" of some sort. One end connects to (in the case of the original post here) the lower rail; the other end dies into the wall AND connects to the upper rail.Although it would be a dimensional issue at install, that could be solved.

        Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

    2. jimmiem | Mar 25, 2009 02:49am | #9

      The 'S' sounds good.  The reason I need to do it in the first place is because we have an elderly guest with a broken arm.  Going up is no problem because the full handrail is on the side of the good arm.  Coming down the stairs the good arm has no handrail until she gets halfway down the stairs. Some have suggested that the new rail be returned to the wall but after thinking about it your suggestion makes more sense...coming down the stairs and all of a sudden the handrail ends.  Also I know that coming downstairs in the dark I slide my hand along the full length rail...makes sense to be able to do the same on the other side even if it takes an 'S' turn...can just picture sliding one's hand along the rail and it just ends...but the stairs don't.

       

      Thank You.  It'll probably look funny but be kind of fun to do.

          

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Mar 25, 2009 02:52am | #10

        Depending on your toolage and skill set, you can either laminate thins into the Ess or bandsaw from solid wood. Then whittle , carve, grind, sand however to get the desired profile.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

         

        They kill Prophets, for Profits.

         

         

        1. jimmiem | Mar 25, 2009 03:53pm | #15

          The house is 20 years old so and the existing rail profile looks pretty stock. The rail I have to join to runs from the newel post on the first step and butts to a wooden plate on the wall.  I was thinking I would cut the rail several inches from the wooden plate, depending on the size of the 'S', attach the 'S' to the end of the cut rail and have it 'S' around the corner and continue up the stairs. Sound like the way to go?

           

                

          1. User avater
            Sphere | Mar 25, 2009 03:58pm | #17

            You got it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

            Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

             

            They kill Prophets, for Profits.

             

             

      2. robert | Mar 25, 2009 06:04am | #14

        You can make the "S" by using two 1/4 turns.....depending on how old your house is, you probably have one of several stock rail profiles.

        Heck, if it's 1610 rail, you can get Surewood 1/4 turns at Home Depot for about $15 each.

        The pieces are so small, that it would be better to Glue and clamp nail them, but you can rail bolt them if you have to.

        Just be carefull, the rail needs to stand off the edge of the wall, at the top of the open treads, 1 1/4 -1 1/2 " at the BOTTOM edge of the rail. Might be worth asking a local shop or inspector about it.

        Oh yeah, make sure you sand it BEFORE you put it up.

        And it's a hard joint to make the first time. Fill any little deficiencies with ZAR Oak Patch(red or the appropriate color). Sand just before finish and you'll never see it.

        1. jimmiem | Mar 25, 2009 04:01pm | #18

          Thank You.

          I figure I'll be doing a lot of measuring and cutting so it fits right.  In addition to sanding I plan on staining and urethaning it before it goes up...otherwise I'll be getting complaints about the smell.

           

          1. robert | Mar 26, 2009 01:13am | #23

            It's pretty easy to get it laid out.......

            Red Oak??

            If so, After your done sanding it and cleaning it, use a little Cleanwood (mostly denatured Alcohol) to get and grease or oil off it. You'll be surprised hom much oil migrates from your tools to your hands to your rail.

            Take your time. By the time you lay out the S curve, the parts will be small. Be careful around the saw.

            Wish I was home, I have pictures of about 100 rails like that.

          2. jimmiem | Mar 26, 2009 03:12am | #25

            When are you going to get home?  It's probably going to be a while before I actually get to do the railing...too much real work and with the warm weather coming I'll have to get back to the outdoor tasks.

            Really like to see the pictures...bet you'll get home before I start to do the handrail.

              

          3. robert | Mar 26, 2009 04:20am | #26

            End of May, maybe beginning of June.

            5 tests tomorrow at 5AM....pass all 5 and get to stay another week.

          4. jimmiem | Mar 29, 2009 06:25pm | #33

            It doesn't look like Red Oak.  I saw some handrails in Lowes. They had Oak and Poplar. I gave the rails in my house a closer look and they sure don't seem to be Oak.  The Lowes stuff was plastic wrapped so it was hard to get a real good look.  May have to buy a piece and bring it home and put them side by side.  I'm not surprised that the builder used something cheaper than Oak.

             

          5. andy_engel | Mar 29, 2009 06:31pm | #34

            Sometimes the smoother rails are birch. Those parts you might have to find online.Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          6. jimmiem | Mar 29, 2009 07:40pm | #35

            Is there a way to tell for sure without cutting a piece off or brigning in an expert?

             

          7. andy_engel | Mar 29, 2009 08:17pm | #36

            Post a close up photo here. Lots of folks could tell. If the grain is smooth and tight, it's probably birch. If it's open and porous, it's probably oak.Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

          8. jimmiem | Mar 29, 2009 11:52pm | #37

            Definitely not open and porous.  I'll get a photo.

             

             

          9. robert | Mar 30, 2009 01:01am | #38

            Might be White oak (doubtful) or it could be Birch or Spruce.

            My second guess would be Birch.

            Almost forgot, some companies do make the standard rail in pine also.

            Edited 3/29/2009 6:02 pm ET by robert

  2. hammerelbow1 | Mar 25, 2009 01:00am | #3

    Any handrail that we install on a wall we return the ends to the wall. The return is at a 45 degree. I believe that is the code in Mi. where we have done some building. We do it in Oh. also.

    Wayne

  3. mike_maines | Mar 25, 2009 01:39am | #5

    As long as you have a continuous rail on one side, it shouldn't need to be continuous on the other side.  I would return the rail 90° to the wall.  It's a safety thing so firehoses don't get caught up on an open-ended rail.  S-curves work too but look funny, IMO.

    The best solution, when planning ahead, is to make your stair well wide enough so the rail can run in a straight line from newel to newel. 

    1. Piffin | Mar 25, 2009 02:02am | #6

      "It's a safety thing so firehoses don't get caught up"I hate it when my bathrobe tie gets caught up on them too. 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. mike_maines | Mar 25, 2009 02:48am | #8

        Bathrobes AND firehoses, those codewriters thought of everything!

        'Course my way around it is that I haven't put rails back up since we painted.  It's only been four years.

        1. Piffin | Mar 25, 2009 03:36am | #11

          betcha get them up the day before Granny comes to spend the night 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. Shoemaker1 | Mar 25, 2009 04:18am | #12

            I cut my hand rails so a blind person has no suprises. But I left enough clearance to do it. When people design stairs they almost always forget a had rail or two go in.Big long standing burr under the bonnet.

          2. mike_maines | Mar 25, 2009 05:44am | #13

             

            betcha get them up the day before Granny comes to spend the night

            No guest room either!

          3. jimmiem | Mar 25, 2009 03:55pm | #16

            Too late.  Granny's already Here!!!!!

            If anybody's got a double handrail already installed I'd gladly ship her over. She's getting really comfy...my wife's been taking good care of her...food all day long...she may never leave...HELP!!!!

        2. CardiacPaul | Mar 26, 2009 02:44am | #24

          'Course my way around it is that I haven't put rails back up since we painted.  It's only been four years.

          LOL

           

          When I bilt my house 20 years ago I was putting up the railing when the inspector showed up for my final, rail & brakets on the steps with the tools, Inspector passed me & left. Tools are back in the trailer & rail, what rail? think I used it on another job. No one should regard themselve as "God's gift to man." But rather a mere man whos gifts are from God.

    2. User avater
      rjw | Mar 25, 2009 02:10am | #7

      >>It's a safety thing so firehoses don't get caught up on an open-ended rail. I'd assumed it was for occupant safety, even those wearing bathrobes <G>

      "Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."

      Howard Thurman

    3. jimmiem | Mar 27, 2009 03:41am | #27

      Thank You.

      Unfortunately the folks that built the house built to code and no higher.  Too much had been completed before I got here and they baulked at requested upgrades. Looking on the bright side lots of things for me to (re)do.

       

      Have really enjoyed your articles in the magazine.  Keep up the good work and writing.

       

      1. Snort | Mar 27, 2009 04:22am | #28

        Did you say that the new handrail is not going to be in the same plane/rake angle as the existing rail that's on the open riser side?If you did, that's a little more complicated than adding an ess curve...if you didn't... never mind<G>And did you mention how the existing rail ends at the starting step?http://www.tvwsolar.com

        I went down to the lobby

        To make a small call out.

        A pretty dancing girl was there,

        And she began to shout,

        "Go on back to see the gypsy.

        He can move you from the rear,

        Drive you from your fear,

        Bring you through the mirror.

        He did it in Las Vegas,

        And he can do it here."

        1. jimmiem | Mar 27, 2009 03:42pm | #30

          The new rail will not be in the same vertical plane because the rail it will be attaching to extends from the newel post on the first step to the end of finished wall which is halfway up the stairs.  If the newel post had been moved toward the center of the stairs then the rail extending from it could have run along the wall once it reached halfway up the stairs.    It will be at the same height (horizontal plane) as the existing rails.

          After thinking about it I'm probaly just going to do the return to the wall.  The 'S' would mean cutting the existing rail where it attaches to the wall and fitting the 'S' to make sure that the space between it and the wall and the rest of the rail and the wall were consistent.

           

          1. Snort | Mar 27, 2009 04:03pm | #31

            Gotcha. What Andy and Mike said. I wouldn't want to try to put an ess in an existing rail.http://www.tvwsolar.com

            I went down to the lobby

            To make a small call out.

            A pretty dancing girl was there,

            And she began to shout,

            "Go on back to see the gypsy.

            He can move you from the rear,

            Drive you from your fear,

            Bring you through the mirror.

            He did it in Las Vegas,

            And he can do it here."

      2. mike_maines | Mar 27, 2009 05:00am | #29

        Thanks for the kind words, Jimmie.

         

  4. andy_engel | Mar 25, 2009 10:10pm | #19

    Mike Maines (good article in the mag, Mike) nailed the answer.

    Andy

    "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

    "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

    "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

    1. jimmiem | Mar 25, 2009 11:03pm | #20

      Did I miss the article?  Which issue?

      Did you like Sphere's 'S' solution?

       

       

      1. andy_engel | Mar 26, 2009 12:03am | #21

        Latest issue, on making cabinets.I'm just being lazy. Sphere offers a good solution, but more work than I'd care to do. Assuming a 2 1/4 in. 6010 railing (about the most common profile on the planet), the quarterturns you can buy at HD should work just fine. Rail and fitting profiles almost never match perfectly, so you'll have to fart around fairing the joints. Depending on the thickness of the wall and the extension of the fittings, standard rail bolts might be too long, and they'd interfere with each other. In that case, you might use shorter doubled ended lags or a couple of dowels and some epoxy to make the joints. You might also use a piece of all-thread with a nut on each end. You'll have to play that by ear. As long as there's a continuous handrail on the other side, it's okay to break this one, which is why I'd have just returned it to the wall. On the other hand, if you make this handrail continuous with the ess, then you could take down the rail on the other side if you wanted more clearance.Andy"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

        Edited 3/25/2009 5:04 pm ET by Andy_Engel

        1. jimmiem | Apr 01, 2009 08:28pm | #39

          I just started reading your article on the winder stairs...you're definitely not lazy...very interesting project.  How do you think the stair builders of the ancient castles in England and Scotland did their measurements?

           

          1. andy_engel | Apr 02, 2009 02:09pm | #40

            Story poles and dividers would be my guess.Andy

            "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)

            "Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom

            "Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Once and Future King

    2. mike_maines | Mar 26, 2009 12:26am | #22

      Aw, shucks.  Thanks Andy.

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