I’ve got a wooden wall cabinet that’s about 15″ wide that I want to hang centered on a wall that’s about 16″ wide. There are no studs to hang the cabinet on. What’s the best way to hang it short of tearing the sheetrock out and putting in a piece between the studs, then resheetrocking? Do toggle bolts work through the sheetrock, or is my cabinet too heavy? Was thinking about making a frame and then attaching cabinet to that. Want the simplest way, as this is a condo resale project. Thanks, guys!
Jeannie
Replies
Here's two possibilities. Sometimes you can angle mounting screws into studs. The other is harder to describe but easy to do and no slop like a toggle bolt will have.
Drill 3/16" holes in cabinet back, I'd probably use three, two up top and one bottom. Prop cabinet in place right where you want it, take your drill and poke through the already drilled holes. Take cabinet down and install #10 molly anchors in holes you marked. Up with the cab and install screws.
And unless you're loading this with lead, the sheetrock will hold the cab, no problem.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
With all due respect, Peter doesn't know what he's talking about. You should not ever hang cabs solely from gyprock.
Best way to do this is, as you suspected, to cut out the gyprock and install solid 2x blocking between the studs. But yes, you will have to do a small amount of gyprock patching and paint work afterwards. If you have some setting type compound you could be done in one day and mount your cabinet as soon as the paint dries.
Easiest way to do it is to screw an oversized piece of 3/4" plywood onto the wall, right through the gyprock into the studs, and mount the cabinet to that. If you use 'Russian' birch plywood and paint or stain it, and size it so it extends around the edges of the cabinet a uniform amount on all sides, it will look just fine. Used six or eight screws through the cabinet back to hold it to the plywood.
Don't use gyprock screws (except for the gyprock patch, if you do it that way). Use truss-head wood screws, or flat heads with conic trim washers to mount the cab to the plywood. If you don't want the screws mounting the plywood to the wall to be visible, use flat heads and countersink them just enough to putty over.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Thanks for that vote of confidence Dino. What I suggested may not be the absolute best, but will certainly work, and in this case the poster was looking for quick and cheap. Unless this is an extraordinary cabinet or contents the loaded weight will likely be south of 75 lbs.
A cabinet held tight to wall board as suggested has some pretty impressive strength characteristics. An example of that would be me hanging on cabinet, which I've done. This type of mounting is used for assist rails mounted solely to sheetrock, so I'm not reinventing the wheel.
You're right in suggesting that blocking would be ideal but there are alternatives that are workable.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
I said 'with all due respect', but the more you defend an indefensible position, the less respect will be due.
You can never know what people will put in a cabinet. Especially in a case like this where the condo will be flipped soon and the new owners may decide to store dishes or books or canned goods or phonograph records or tools or bog-knows-what in it. Imagining a maximum weight of 75 pounds for a wall cabinet is being extremely Pollyannaish, IMO. I would place that figure at 4 or 6 times that weight.
Your suggestion to the OP to hang that kind of potential weight on a few Molly anchors (which, BTW, were designed for masonry, not gyprock) is irresponsible. Supposing she takes your advice and does it that way, and the new owner unknowingly overloads the mounting and the cab rips off the wall and falls on his 5-year-old daughter and kills or seriously injures her?
Sorry 'bout the dope-slap, but you asked for it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 10/28/2009 1:05 pm ET by Dinosaur
Egos aside, you're right Dino, I don't know what people might put in their cabinets, other than what I observe, which is what I base my opinions on. I have trouble envisioning 300-400 lbs in a conventional 15" cabinet upper. Truth is, many cabinets would probably fail with that kind of weight loaded in them.
I suppose neither one of us knows what the nature of this cabinet actually is, I'm assuming a kitchen upper, 15" x 30" or 36" The times I've done what I suggested it was tested by me hanging on it, not scientific perhaps, but then much of what we do is seat-of-pants engineering...wouldn't you agree? I'm not suggesting a fast and loose approach but rather one I've used successfully in rare circumstances.
Sounds to me that what I call a Molly anchor is perhaps something else to you. I find them to be among the strongest mounting methods in sheetrock.
http://www.dkhardware.com/product-21213-4s-5-16-hole-1-8-to-1-2-grip-range-molly-hollow-wall-fasteners.html
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Edited 10/28/2009 1:53 pm ET by PeterJ
Every time I empty the dishwasher and put all of those plates, glasses, and other dishes in the wall cabinet, I have this concern about the thing eventually falling. It hasn't, but it's screwed into studs at multiple points. In a bath, two of the towel rods wouldn't hit studs on both ends (they're 24 inches and 18 inches), so I used molys in plaster at one end. I'm always careful when replacing the towels, as I know this isn't the best solution. I can't imagine hanging cabinets purely on gypsum. I worry enough about pictures.
I'm too old to make my ego work that hard.... ;o)
The way I look at something like this is to assume the worst, and advise on how to avoid that happening. I can't see her cabinet from here, so I am assuming it's something like 15" wide by 48" high by 12" deep, sort of like a narrow china cupboard or pantry. That measures about 5.0 cf, and I have no trouble figuring out how to get two or three hundred pounds into that amount of space. 40 pounds per cubic foot, which is only two thirds the weight of water (64p/cf), the major component in most canned goods, gives you a load of 200 pounds.
People just don't realise how heavy stuff is.
Yes, I do take a conservative approach to this sort of thing, but as I explained to Florida, the trouble to do it right is so small, and the potential problems that could arise from doing it wrong are ao serious, that it's really a no brainer which way to go.
(Edited to correct some arithmatic, heh, heh.)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 10/28/2009 7:19 pm ET by Dinosaur
Dino,
I am not debating that the best and right way to hang this cabinet is with blocking, but ...........
Your math is very, very shaky today
Post interupted by you math correction.
5.0 cu ft = much better.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
That's what I get from trying to think in two measuring systems simultaneously. Guilty as charged, but it only took me what, .25 hours or 15.0 minutes or 1/96 of a day to figure it out....
Oooooh, I hate when I do that....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Are cubic feet smaller in Canada? I get 6 and 1.5 from those calcs.
Your point isn't lost on me though. The few times I've done this, it was a calculated risk on my part, as are many things. I'm not reccomending it as the new method for installing kitchens.
You've got me thinking about the ultimate strength of my method. It surprised me how solid it was. I could easily mock it up in the shop...you interested in the results if I do? Anyone else interested?
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
I am, I was thinking exactly the same thing.
I'd like to know because frequently I'm asked to install things between studs or they use those tin studs and I dont trust them to hold weight or hod screws.
Chaim
In a long shallow cabinet snugged tight to the wall most of the load will be in shear if the molly is snug in the hole it fits in. It will bear in the plane of the drywall since the cabinet gables transfer the shelf load to mostly downward load on the back. Using four offset mollies locatedin the upper half of the cabinet divides that shear load in four and shares the tension load.If the cabinet is overloaded and the mollies not snug, slop will convert a larger part of the load to tension, something the mollies aren't designed for and don't deal with well.I wouldn't hang a whole kitchen with them or a cabinet deeper than a regular kitchen upper but for the occasional circumstance they work just fine.
Ever seen that happen? The cabinets in my parents house were nailed to the walls with finish nails including the hanging cabinets over the island which were nailed to the ceiling. They were 42 inches high and full of dishes and glasses. I screwed them to the framing after they had lived in the house 25 years. I'm not saying wall anchors would be the best choice but they would certainly hold a 15 inch cabinet just fine.
Yes. Although, thankfully, the HO's little daughter wasn't under it when it happened. But it scared the craap out of her and her father, and if I'd been the fool who mounted it (I wasn't), it would have made me think about taking up a less risky job--like heart surgery.
I have seen cabinets and bookshelf units pull off the wall more than once. It almost happened to me many years ago before I understood that the substrate must be as strong or stronger than the fasteners before the breaking strength of the fastener means anything. The standards on my modular bookshelf unit had been mounted to the wall with nice, big, #12x2½" screws...into 3/8" OSB. By the time I noticed anything was wrong, there was half an inch of daylight behind both standards at the upper end. Duh. We calculated later that I had loaded the shelves (which came with the house when I bought it, BTW) with over 500 pounds of books and records.
Molleys and other types of expansion anchors should never be used in gyprock under any circumstances; gyprock doesn't react well at all to being crushed. If you have to hold up something light, such as a small wall mirror, toggle bolts or those large-thread self-tapping gyprock anchors are a better choice. But they're rated for a max of 45 pounds each, because that's the fracture/pull out strength of gyprock--so you can't be hanging something on them that can have weight added to it. Like I did to my bookshelves 25 years ago when I bought this place....
Another thing people don't understand is that anchor rating isn't endlessly cumulative. In other words, a rating of 45# per anchor doesn't mean if you use twenty of them you can hold up 900 pounds. In fact, what you'd do is likely create a 'break along dotted line' situation.
It isn't that hard to do this job right, and there are several acceptable ways to approach it, only two of which I mentioned in my first post. But the OP came here assuming we are professionals who know what we're talking about, so I can't in good conscience fail to comment on advice I know is dangerous.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Molleys and other types of expansion anchors should never be used in gyprock under any circumstances
Dino, original post aside. A moly, when used correctly does not expand against the hole. It flares behind the wallboard and pulls the legs up tight to the backside. If too short an anchor is used it would expand against the hole, but that's a specific mis-use of the product...much like using sheetrock screws to hang cabs.
And FWIW, they are designed for anchoring in hollow walls...studs and sheetrock. Google it. Here's a little graphic I found online.
View Image
I've heard toggles referred to as molys. The big difference is a toggle requires a much larger hole than the machine screw that goes with it, so there's lots of play. A moly body is the same size as its mounting hole. And to those who're interested in such things the newer style that drives in with a smack of a hammer has an annoying habit of cratering the back side of sheetrock, which compromises their holding power significantly. Installed right they work well.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
I'm gonna have to check this another time, but my old man taught me that the word 'Molly' was a brand name for jute-wrapped lead anchors designed to be inserted in masonry. It is not by any means impossible that the word Molly has passed into the common tongue like the word 'aspirin', or 'kleenex' and is now used to mean all sorts of things it never did before.
What you pictured and described is what I would probably call a butterfly compression anchor, the word 'compression' being added to distinguish it from what some people have been calling a 'toggle anchor' or 'toggle bolt'...which is actually a bolt with a toggle splined directly into a lontitudinal groove.
A butterfly spring anchor is simply a machine screw onto which is threaded a nut with two spring-loaded 'wings' that fold back in one direction, then spring open and lock against an opposite pull.
Whoo-boy.
Okay, now, all together: let's misquote the 'Spice Girls', "Tell me what you want, what you really really want...."
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
What Peter is describing is a Molly. What you're describing is a lead anchor and a toggle is something else entirely. At least in my neck of the woods.
I know it's not the best way, and it's not the way I'd do it, but Mollys would work and I'll bet they'd be stronger than you think. We do a lot of soft wall systems in a state building. Their specs call for wall toggles to hold the desk and shelves standards to the walls. I've never seen one fail or even come loose and parts of these are desks that people lean on.
I am absolutely amazed that no one has suggested PL Premium in combination with the sheetrock anchors. I'm gonna duck and run now. :)
No, no, no, Chuck!! You use the PL Premium to glue on Velcro strips!!!
VELCRO RULES!!!!
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
VELCRO RULES!!!!
Think of how easy it would be to re-paint!!
Not!
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
1. Make hole just big enough for funnel (described as a Tundish by Joyce). 2. Each day for a week pour enough concrete to fill 13.21" of the wall cavity (precut stud ht. divided by 7). 3. Affix cabinet with tapcons at location of your choosing (cue Frenchy to describe his method of attaching things to ICFs using surplus titanium from old Apollo spacecraft).
I've seen several kitchens worth of cabinets where the boxes were hung with common nails. And in virtually all of them, the cabinets were pulling away from the walls.
the good thing is- they were really easy to take down.<G>
I really don't see why anyone would use toggles to install a cabinet. It isn't that hard to cut sheetrock, add blocking, and hang the cabinet the right way.
And it can be done easily in a day.
I don't disagree. My parent's island cabinets were pulling away slightly when I screwed them to the framing. But, the OP isn't a pro and probably can't do the way you or I would or she wouldn't be here asking.
I see your point, but I still don't think relying on hollow wall anchors is a good idea.
For a quick and dirty way to put up a cabinet, I might cut a piece of plywood big enough to bridge from stud to stud, screw that to the studs, paint it, and then fasten the cabinet to that.
Nah. I'd still cut out the rock and put in blocking. Do it once, do it right.
"If you have some setting type compound you could be done in one day" Please explain every step in how you can cut, repair, sand and paint in 1 day. And please do not leave anything out.Russell
I'm with Dinosaur. You should never hang a cabinet off sheetrock alone, no matter how many toggles you use. You never know what will go into that cabinet.
Remove some of the rock behind where that cabinet will go, install 2x blocking between the studs (I like using 2x6, but 2x4 is OK, too), fasten the rock back, and install the cabinet.
If you're careful with your measuring and cutting, you won't even have to spackle or paint.
Oh, and don't use sheetrock screws to hang the cabinet.
Cut a hole in the center of the stud bay and slip a 2x4 or 1x4 in and position behind the drywall where you will fasten the cabinet. Screw a couple of drywall screws through the drywall into the board to hold it in place. Do a quick patch job on the hole (will be hidden behind the cabinet) to seal any leaks. Put the cabinet up and screw into that backer board behind the drywall (not using drywall screws), and you should be set. Should hold more than the toggle bolts will.
I'm a little confused - if the wall is 16" wide, and the cabinet is 15" wide then you only have 1/2" clearance on either side. Are you saying that the two corners of the wall don't have studs? Your cabinet should overlap the studs by at least 1" on either side so you can hang from studs.
The space between the studs should be 14-1/2". If the cabinet is perfectly centered in that space (which I doubt. Nothings that perfect <G>), it'll hang over the studs 1/4" on each side. And screws could be angled to catch the studs on both sides.
I'd agree with you on a wall of several feet, but how can the space between two studs in a 16" wall be 14-1/2"? A stud is 1-1/2" thick. Two studs = 3", subtract that from 16" you get 13" of space between the studs.
deduct one stud
16" o/c means subtract 3/4" on each side(total)=1 1/2"
16-14 1/2 =14 1/2" I know, it's just typing before completing the math. better to catch it now than later
Technically I could hang this by toe-screwing on a diagonal. It's a pain and may take a few times and it's usually pretty ugly in the inside corners.
As someone else has stated, cut out a hole in the wall and attach a piece of lumber between the studs and toe nail those in the studs. patch the hole with mud and tape. No need to paint because the cab covers it, assuming the cabinet has a back.
This is thread is starting to use up too many brain cells...
Back to more intellectual thoughts :~)
Yes, but she said THE ENTIRE WALL IS 16" WIDE, NOT 16" ON CENTER.
Sorry to shout but 3 people are telling me how to calculate the open space between studs on a wall that has 16" on center studs - these studs are not 16" on center, the wall is 16" wide.
I'm hearing you, but was beating other dead horses :)
We may never know the outcome...
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Seems to me there is another "option" out there. They "look" like oversized screws, they screw into drywall, and then you use a regular screw to mount what you need to a wall. They come as either a plastic type or, a metal type, both with coarse threads. They also "self-drill" into the drywall. Anybody know these?" Although I have the right to remain stupid, I try not to abuse that right"
Yes, threaded drywall anchors but they would be a bad choice since they screw in and only the threads hold them in place. Great choice for other applications though, I use them all the time.
Know and used them, but not for this. Here's my take on wall anchors in ascending order of ability to hold weight.
1. Plastic shields that expand against insertion hole are good for pictures and other light duty.
2. Screw in anchors (auger style like you mention). Middle of the road strength. I've had them just hog out a chunk of drywall rather than screw in...a pita
3. Anchors that open up behind and bear on back of drywall, specifically molly anchors and toggle bolts.
There are hybrids too, but for the method mentioned, I'd only use mollys.
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
All y'all, I'd use these in a heartbeat for 15" wide cabinet:http://www.mrgrabbar.com/SNAPTOGGLE-Toggle-Bolts-s/384.htm?gclid=CJfOnLKj450CFU0i2god8x5V5gcourse, I'd never tell the molly nahtzees<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
There you go! I couldn't remember the name but those are the ones we use on the soft walls.
Those are great drywall anchors! I keep a supply on hand for things like mirrors, grab rails and maybe even small cabinets. I don't want to enter the fray regarding whether or not they are suitable in this particular case because I don't know what kind of cabinet it is or what will be stored in it.
I hang 150lb hutchs using only those all the time. Most commercial it's steel, and NO ONE would pay me what it would take to cut sheetrock and add blocking. Done it for years, never a problem. They work even better if ya can shoot them into the center of that steel stud.
Whoooowee guys....I know I must be getting old now because my eyesight is failing. I thought I saw some posts saying that it was ok to hang a wall cabinet with a molly or toggle bolts. Can you imagine that? Anyhow for what it's worth, I have seen wall cabinets (twice on different jobs) ripped entirely out of the wall that were hung with hollow wall anchors. There was broken china and homeowners in tears. Another time the cabinets were hung with nails, like Shep said, and the cabs didn't come crashing down, but were pulled way out from the wall. I would never ever hang wall cabs with those things. I get nervous when I just do a tp holder with them. And I don't care if a poster claims that a cabinet has been hanging for 15 years with them, I say bully for the cabinet and...it's only a matter of time.
A person who is unable to cut out a piece of sheetrock, add proper blocking, replace the rock and spackle it, has no business hanging a wall cab in the first place. We're just random pros from all over who write in to a forum that's open to all, therefor all kinds of opinions are here. But...I would venture to say that on any engineering website or building site that doles out building codes & regulations, or any official handbook as such, would side with me on this.
The studs are even closer if there's drywall on each side of the 16" wall.Aimless gets an A plus for reading and comprehension.
UHHH.... She posted " ABOUT" 16" long. Not "exactly" How much margin is there in an "about" 16" long
Life is Good
Half an inch either way. Otherwise she would have said about 15 inches or 17 inches.But that's not really the point. Aimless was being corrected for a 16" center line calculation.
Yea.. no problem.
I just found the statement before funny in light of her "about " adjective. Me? I lay out the cabinet size in the desired location on the wall would drill 1/4" holes just inside the layout marks, probe through those to find what is within reach... or reach for my stud finder and start testing with finish nails.
Life is Good
No she didn't.
She said "ABOUT" 16 long.
Go back and read her post. ""I've got a wooden wall cabinet that's about 15" wide that I want to hang centered on a wall that's about 16" wide."" Care to guess how long it really is?
Life is Good
Could be a double stud on each end which would make the open area even smaller. Wonder if the OP has poked around and actually checked.John
Funny thing is OP posted on 10/28 hasn't been back since , but she is listed as being a member only since 10/30....
Guess we will have to wait until tomorrow to see what the answer is.
Life is Good
my bad.
we(not you) can pissy sometimes, can't we? :~)
my response was to pick out what I felt the math was, but to point out that how it can be done other ways. I 've there done that too many times hanging cabinets. I am in agreement with others that wall anchors in sheetrock w/ or w/o adhesive is not a good idea.
Edited 10/29/2009 1:13 pm by migraine
Sorry- I missed that part in the OP. Serves me right for speed reading <G>
When a wall is framed, studs are layed out 16" on center. That also makes it 16" from stud edge to edge.
Then there's only one stud in a 16" space, leaving 14-1/2" between studs.
Hi Shep,You know the finish washers that used to be common? They have raised edges that allow a screw head to be seated nicely in the bowl-shape of the washer (often used on removable stops on old windows, etc.).Anyway, I use the finish washers in cases where the screw needs to be angled, but I use GRK trim heads with them. The bowl shape of the washer allows the trim head to be run at any angle and they (the washer and screw head) work together like a ball and socket. For studs that are a fair distance away, I sometimes use this ball and socket, angled screw arrangement with 5" trimhead screws. Works great, looks good, and saves messing with installing backing.I'll get some photos sometime... might make a good tip?Have a great day,Brian
I've still got a bag of those washers around- somewhere.
Now you've given me a reason to find them.
You should submit that tip to FHB. You're getting your name everywhere else anyway <G>
That was one of those strange discoveries that comes from hauling all sorts of bizarre hardware around. I'll pester Chuck Miller with that idea... who knows.All the best,Brian
The finish washers are a great idea but the 5" screws could be a problem if they hit unprotected plumbing or wires.
I most often use 2-3/4" or 3-1/8" trim heads with the washers for running screws up to say 22* I only use the 5" if the screw has to be run at a 45* angle so the effective length is the square root of half of the square of the length of the screw. :o) Running at a diagonal through the cabinet back, sheet rock and stud space before you reach the stud and there is little worry of reaching a wire or pipe.
It's early, so I didn't even try to follow your math but people should think about the consequences of long screws.
Of course, I've done the same thing on occassion. I find it helps if I screw up my face and repeat my mantra "Please don't screw anything up."
I've hit one pipe in the last 20 years... don't want to do that again. These days, I take digital pics of any walls open during construction for reference later. I also keep a "See Snake" handy to look inside walls if I have concerns.All the best,Bass
You give the measurements as ABOUT 15" and ABOUT 16". Take some exact measurements and think about hanging the cabinet by running 2" (or longer) screws at angles that will catch the studs at each end of the wall.
If that won't work, open the wall and put in a block to hold the cabinet. If you measure and mark carefully, the patch won't have to be pretty since the cabinet will cover it.
To original poster: Have we successfully beat your question to a pulp? More importantly did we scare you away? With jobs being scarce, we just gotta get this stuff out of our systems :)
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Jeanie,
Did you actually think that the "simplest way" would be that simple? It just "shows to go ya" that there's nothing simple about asking a bunch of guys the "simplest way." 8D
good 4" screws,angled at each corner. your studs only have 14.5 of space between them.should hit wood.hafta hit wood.
the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
Cut the drywall the same size as the cabinet. add backing to side of studs. Recess cabinet 3.5 inches. screw through cabinet and backing.
Can you use French cleats by extending them horizontally beyond the sides of the cabinet? Do a half lap where they extend past the back of the cabinet and attach through the sheetrock to the studs. Cleats are a legitimate method of hanging cabinets right? Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm no pro, just curious why it hasn't been mentioned.
Nothing at all wrong with a French cleat in general, but the wall part of the cleat has to be screwed to the studs, too, which would leave the ends of it exposed in this case. Plus the cab would be sitting 3/4" proud of the wall, with no easy way to hide that.
Given her situation, the best suggestions so far have been:
1. Do it 'right'--i.e. cut out the 'rock and install blocking
2. Install a plywood backer which spans the studs, and screw the cab to it
3. Cut out the 'rock, screw filler cheeks to the studs both sides, and recess the cab the depth of the studs, screwing it sideways into the studs.
That last one is the most intriguing alternate method I've seen anyone suggest so far.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....