I have hung upper cabinets on a masonary wall and on drywall with wood studs, so I know enough to be dangerous, but now I’m stumped. I’m trying to hang cabinets in an apartment from the 1940s, and I’ve never seen a wall like this. Looks like they used some kind of metal rebar (not like a stud), covered it with expanded metal and tied it down with wire, and covered it with an inch of plaster. There’s a horizontal wood hanging strip where the old cabinets used to be, but it’s about 18″ below the top of where the new cabinets will be.
So here’s the idea so far. Gang the cabinets on the ground. Lift them into place, use the cabinet hanging screws in the hanging strip, and then finish it off with a series of toggle bolts above and below the hanging strip. Since the toggles are digging into the expanded metal, which is tied to the studs, this should be fine. Right? By the way, I’m also trying to hang an over-the-range microwave this way.
Any thoughts? I would love to hear someone say “no problem, done this before” but please let me know if this sounds crazy. Thanks everyone.
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This will be sort of what we call a "bump"--not an answer, but keeps your post current so others can answer.
I would say that if the strip held the old cabinets, screwing into it and with the additional toggle bolts, you should be okay--for the cabinets. Not sure about the microwave. I there's any doubt, you could always screw 3/4" plywood to what studs there are (you mentioned them--so I assume there are some, but that they're a lot further apart than 16") and then screw the microwave mounting plate to the plywood.
I'll second the ply skin method. Mark out on the wall the shape of the cabinets as they will hang on the wall. Cut the drywall away (easy with sheet rock, PITA with plaster and lath) about 2 inches inside of the line. Skin the hole with plywood to match the thickness of the original studcovering being sure to attach it firmly to the framing members (wood metal or masonry). Then hang you cabs as you would normally do.
Bud, I have installed various cabinets, shelves, and displays on this type of unusual wall system using the Hilti Toggler. It's a toggle bolt that stays put once installed so removing the object doesn't require a new toggle. Drill the hole, insert the Toggler-slide the plastic keeper down tight. The wing is now fixed to the wall.
There's some problem in "holding" the bit in place when drilling as it sometimes walks along the diamond mesh. Using the cabinet as a drill guide makes it easier to get the proper position. I use a masonry bit for the plaster, then switch to a metal cutting drill bit. The Togglers come in 3/16ths and 1/4''. The 1/4'' requires a half inch hole.
On some objects, a "wide" sheet metal screw works well as it threads into the diamond metal. This in shear, not as good a pull out strength.
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Might have a problem, since it sounds like there's not much room on the back side of the plaster. The toggle bolt needs to get through past the back of the plaster by about the length of one of the wings, or it won't spring open.
I ran into this hanging a microwave on a drywall wall over 3/4" furring strips over brick. 3/4" between the back of the drywall wasn't enough to poke the toggles through and have them spring open. So I cut an elongated slot, so the toggle could get through and spring open, then rotated them 90° to engage the back of the wall.
Don't know about doing that for a whole run of cabinets, though. How about building out wall over the existing, complete with studs and blocking covered with drywall?
Pete Duffy, Handyman
My old workshop had CMU walls. To hang cabinets I used a french cleat, a 1x4 with a bevel ripped on the top with a mate on the back of the cabinet. Use Bulldog anchors or some other fastener, then just hang the cabinets on the cleat. Sure makes solo cabinet hanging easy.
Bud,
In the 80's I worked as a carpenter for a local university, and all of their buildings built from early 50's to mid 60's used this system for partition walls. The generic name we used was pencil rod studs, because most of them had 3/8th's pencil rod going back and forth between two outside pieces of angle metal so it looked like a truss. The top and bottom tracks were channels with slots notched on 8" centers and they were just snapped into place on layout. Usually 24" centers, and 4" was the common width. Studs at openings were doubled and tack welded together with a steel door frame welded in place.
All the original solid maple lab cabinets were hung in these buildings using a french cleat and lower wood strip at the bottom of the cabinet, toggled to the plaster. Any remodels we did were done the same way, and there was never any problems. Sometimes if we happened to hit a stud face while drilling for toggles we would just screw through the flange of the stud, which usually was only 1/2" to 3/4" wide.
I'd move your hanging strip to up so you can hang your new cabinets from it, add a additional cleat at the bottom of your cabinets, hang them, and then screw them to the cleats. No Problem.
Cabinets are amazingly heavy when loaded (all those dishes etc.), so I'd recommend you bite the bullet and cut open the wall behind the cab unit and nail solid 2x blocking to the studs you've got at the right heights. Then use your cabinet screws to mount to that. You don't have to refinish the wall (the cabs will cover it all) but if you want to close it up to keep bugs, dirt, etc in, squirt some canned low-expansion foam around the blocking and stick a sheet of polyethylene over it all.
A cut-off disc on a small angle grinder will cut through the plaster and expanded metal and rebar about as neatly as anything else I can think of. Watch out for wires, LOL....
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Thanks everyone. Putting plywood behind the microwave makes perfect sense and makes me wonder why I couldn't think of that myself. I'll take down the plaster there, raise the hanging strip, and see if I can get the toggles to work. I'm already wondering how to attach the plywood to the "studs", but I'll have to stare at it a while before I know what question to ask. Also, is there any structural value to keeping the diamond mesh intact when I go through the plaster, or should I just cut through that as well?
Pete, there is plenty of room back there as it is the wet wall for the kitchen and bathroom, so the toggles should work. Panic, it's good to know I'm not seeing things and that somewhere else there is a wall built this way.