Hanging cabinets on metal studs?
Jamie_Buxton
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I’m going to be hanging upper cabinets in a kitchen built with steel studs, and that’s a first for me. What’s different about hanging them on steel instead of wood? Do I just use sheet metal screws instead of wood ones? Or is it worthwhile to replace a horizontal strip of drywall with plywood?
Replies
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Or is it worthwhile to replace a horizontal strip of drywall with plywood?"
That's what I would do. When I lived in NYC they always used metal studs and we would just screw right into them to hang the cabs, but I wouldn't do that anymore. It's mostly a sheer load on a screw when hanging cabinets but there is a lateral load as well so you have to have some meat for the threads to grab into and not just the thin metal of the studs.
A lot of times when using metal studs, the carpenters will run a strip of 2x material horizontally between the studs where the cabs are getting screwed.
Jamie,
I install office furniture. When we mount hutchs to the wall we use snap toggles for steel stud applications.
http://www.toggler.com/products_hwh.html
When I have the chance to change things when the walls are open. I'll have them screw 2x4 "cripples" to the side of the steel studs to mount to. If your going to open the wall anyway, screw the cripples to the side of the steel, and then secure the ply to those.
&0.02
D.
I usually make a french cleat. You just have to make sure that the walls don't have a big bow in them. You'll need scribe or some other type of molding to cover the gap if the cabinets aren't wall to wall.
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If you have any poo, fling it now.
Edited 4/10/2006 5:37 pm ET by dustinf
U can just screw ...
but you more than make up for the time lost skinning open the drywall and laying in some 1/2" ply buy having full length nailers(screwers) when attaching the cabs.
Just do a careful layout ... make sure none of the ply shows.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
someone explain why a strip of plywood screwed to the studs is any stronger than your cabinets screwed to the studs. seems like a waste of time
I think a screw in a strip of plywood would pull out easier than a screw in a metal stud
I'll give you my 2 cents.
I get the 1st part of your comment but for different reasoning. My thought was that you were thinking that if the plywood is screwed to the face of the metal studs, how is that any different than cabinets screwed to the " same " face. with that theory I might agree with you.
However. I disagree that a screw will pull out of plywwod easier than from metal studs. having said that, the thinkness of the plywood will play a factor. 1/2" ply to me is marginal.
On the few commercial jobs I have worked on. plywood backing was pre installed anywhere that something that was going to be hung was. we used mininum of 3/4" ply and it was notched to tuck in behind the lip on the stud face, then screwed in place.
"we used mininum of 3/4" ply and it was notched to tuck in behind the lip on the stud face, then screwed in place."
Exactly. Much better to tuck in behind the stud's lip.
If you cut out the sheetrock let's say 10" for a 10" wide piece of inset plywood then you can easily put 3-4 screws vertically in the ply on every stud, much more holding strength than just one through the cab and thin steel of the stud, plus what I wrote earlier about the screw having the full 12" meat of the plywood (PLUS the steel stud if you can) for grabbing, giving you a better lateral hold.
Do not use sheetrock screws.
Who says you can only use one screw per stud? use two or three if you're comfortable with that. usually out of the box cabinets have backing that extends above the cieling and floor of the cabinet so you could put screws "outside" the box.
also, most stock cabinets have a screw cleat at both the top and bottom. whenever possible I take advantage of that extra space for screws
It's the lateral pull I'm trying to make a point of. Use as many damned screws as ya want, fill the cabinet with helium, spuerglue the cabinet to the studs, run a steel I beam through the cabinet to the fondation to hold it up.
This thread is holding me up and I'm done with it.
Who says you can only use one screw per stud?
Sometimes the cabinet box "does." If you are setting a 15" wide upper cabinet, it's likely only going to "hit" just the one stud. Let's say the cabinet company is good, and there's three nailers on the back. That's still going to be three screws, all holding by just one thread (even in a 20ga stud, let alone a 25ga) to hold up everything the customer is likely to pile in that cabinet. (Which is when they put every plate they own in that one cabinet too--'cause Murphy clean hates us <g>)
For situations where you jsut don't know what's behind the drywall, I like using the widest bit of plywood as the "wall" half of a "french" cleat. A 12" wide plywood strip "looks" like overkill, but you get a lot of room to get "purchase" on the studs, or toggle/mollied to the DW.
But, that's me; others differ.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
when I was a union apprentice we had to take classes every so often, the instructor said a screw will hold stronger in a metal stud than a wood stud. I said BS, I don't buy it. we bet a pizza. he drove a screw into both studs, I could pull the screw out of the wood stud with a claw hammer and proceded to lose the bet
True enough, neither works very well stripped out.
Just seen folks with all of granna nanna's heirloom flatware in that one 15 x 36 cabinet over the d/w and wondered just how many screws were between day-to-day and disaster . . . <sigh>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
We install kitchen in NYC on a regular basis. Many have steel studs, many have block walls.Cabinets are fastened to steel studded walls by first installing a 3/4" x 4" strip cut into the GWB. If there is also going to be a tiled backsplash we don't even notch the cleat at the stud. If space is not an issue, and we laminate the "sub-backsplash" with 1/2" hardibacker prior to tiling and just screw the plywood cleat to the studs through the GWB.Anyways, the reason it is better to use a cleat rather than screwing directly to the stud is because the screws fastening the carcasses to the cleat can be evenly distributed without worry of aligning with the stud schedule. This means all the screws are loaded evenly.BTW, we now use deck screws - coated or ss, depending on color of carcass interior.FrankieThere he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Thank you all for the advice.
I've used the togglers described above for this application. Only I drill the hole directly through the metal stud and open the toggler inside the channel of the stud. I'd put four togglers per cabinet if possible into the studs, two at the top and two at the bottom in as many studs and boxes as you can reasonably put them in and that sucker won't pull out or fall off unless the wall comes with it. Use a cow magnet stuck into one end of a 10" piece of 1/2' diameter surgical tubing to find the studs. Hold on to the free end of the surgical tubing and let the cow magnet dangle down, then move the whole thing across the GWB surface and the magnet will snap into place over a stud. Absolutely fool proof and togglers are really easy to use.
BjR
Edited 4/11/2006 7:16 pm ET by BjR
So you're drilling a 1/2" hole through the metal stud? What kind of bit do you use? I'd expect a spade bit wouldn't cut it, and a twist drill that big wouldn't start itself through the thin sheet metal, it would just kinda push it into the wall.
A spade bit with a spur will cut through metal studs, but it's not the fastest way. A 1/2" bi-metal hole saw works pretty well or the Bullet Point bits work, too. Pilot holes make twist drills faster. I install home theater equipment and have mounted a lot of TVs to walls with metal studs. Drilling into the studs and using toggles, then adding another toggle between the studs works pretty well. Sometimes, depending on the mount, we'll remove a section of the drywall, attach wooden studs or plywood horizontally where the lags will go and screw the drywall back on. One time, the mount weighed 65 lb by itself and extended 3' out. The guy I was working with hung on the end when it was fully extended and the mount didn't budge. He goes about 230 lb and we were installing a 50" plasma.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Yes, a bullet bit is your tool of choice in this application because of the pilot bit. I've never seen that clip thingy and it looks pretty handy too. But that product needs to be applied at the framing stage and not after the GWB is on. Sometimes when I add backing between the studs I take a pair of tin snips and cut out the hard edge of the stud the width of my backing and make it flat with a pair of linemens pliers. Then I cut my backing to the correct length to go between the studs and run a screw through the metal stud and into the end grain of the backing, then on the other end I set a screw through the face of the flange I've made by flattening out the edge of the stud and into the face of the backing. It would probably make more sense if I could attach a sketch here but I can't. If you PM me with a fax number I could fax you a sketch.
BjR
Here's what we spec sometimes on our commercial jobs- contractors love'em. It just folds out across the studs.
Scroll down to Danback Flexible wood backing
http://www.dietrichindustries.com/laborsaving/
Jim