I know this is’nt going to get me anywhere but i have to let it out.Seems to be a trend in my parts (hopefully others are better off).I’ve been in the bizz for 5 years and I know I dont know it all.But i work hard, real hard I’m early to work and late to leave, I make my self available for weekends and keep personal time down to virtually nill, and as long as i have direction and the right tools I can do any job handed in a fair amount of time,and looking good because i’m fussy.I’ve been known to take off hours (time clock) worked because of something I did wrong and wouldent let someone pay me hard earned dollars for something I screwed up on.Nevertheless I always hear the same old same old HARDER…FASTER… (like a bad sex flic.) Today i was told to be more (enthusiastic) with my painting.Not only did the job get done (and done early) not only did i get a whole whopping 58.50$ not only did my boss give me complements on the things i do right.But at the end of the day I was told to paint faster.Who cares if paint splaters all over the place, who cares if anyone gets exhausted,who cares as long as the guy who makes 25 dollars an hour gets the same job he would do, out of a 26 year old he pays 9 dollars an hour.All I know is i have a family to feed and bills to pay.I do the job as best as I can.I also understand I’m young and am learning a trade and I am willing to make the sacrifices.But I just thought I’d give everyone a reminder of what it was like back then and hope someone will look at their help tomorrow and just say good job,nothing else just good job, you know somewhere in the past they saved you time or money.So just thank your help because they are doing it for you regardless they must like you or they would have quit buy now. thanks……
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Add,
Sorry to hear your situation. I know the feeling. There are bosses/people out there that say good job, dont say 'faster'. Maybe its time to try and find someone you are better matched up with ( find someone who appreciates the extra effort that your giving). I was with a company that was like yours, I ended up getting really depressed, felt pretty worthless. Now Im with a company that is almost the complete opposite. Try looking for a better company, see what comes up.
Sounds to me like you might want to explore becoming your own boss....building is one enterprise where one can become an entreprenuer where the sky's the limit...from starting out at "cottage industry" level to as big as you wanta get.
It's a scary move, especially with little shoes to buy and mouths to feed, but if you've got DW's support and a work ethic as you describe, you can do it and someday be the boss you now wish yours was.
Think, imagine, plan, visualize and dream...then go for it!
There's been a number of good discussions on this forum about starting out...a good place to begin schooling yourself on the pitfalls and the benefits.
(And learn about contracts and people skills and insurance develop professionalism....unlike the individual who started another thread who's got himself in a pickle by going about things half a s s e d.
Hope things go good for you...remember...happiness is the best revenge...your current boss might someday come to you looking for a job....
Just out of curiousity, what part of the country are you in?
Jon Blakemore
To answer your question I live in upstate New York, we've beeen hard hit with lay offs and complete company shutdowns but as far as I know the construction industry has stayed relitivily the same.I tend to keep in mind these things, there are a lot of people looking for work around here everyone has a family to feed, but construction stays relativly the same. As for work load (and no one seems to be charging much less).Nevertheless I keep these things in account and have, and will work for less if the economy so determens it.In this area construction companies are a dime a dozen and starting my own is unfeasable due to age and experience.So I'm stuck, and it's ok because at the end of the day I know I've done a good job,I may not have made the big bucks, but each day I go home and know that not only am I a proud American but I'm a proud American who did it and did it well. thanks.......
Change fussy to pickey and you really have something.
Keep in mind that more you produce and take care of at your expense / stress the better of your boss is. The more he makes from your labors.
Does he share? Elevate your company position? Add more money to your pay check? Give you day off with pay or even buy lunch? Pay over time?
Sounds like it's time for a new boss. Be it yourself or some one else.
You sound like you have what it takes to make it any place you chose.
Put a bunch of empty Cheeto bags and 1/2 eaten donuts under you bosses car seat or somewhere where his wife will find it. Throw a couple Playboy magazines in there while you're at it. Keep doing it for a long time so his hostility gets all built up. It will help you feel better.
People treat you the way you let them.
Present yourself as someone who deserves respect.....act accordingly.....
and you'll get it.
Long hard hours don't mean anything.
Work smarter.....not harder.
Last company I worked for had a project manager that would tool up every so often just to stay in shape......
...most any job anyone else would work long and hard thru...he'd breeze in....work slow and steady.....and get the damn thing done as good if not better than most anyone else in the company and have it done and cleaned up in half the time.
never even a hair outta place.
longer and harder ain't it........smarter ....or better...is.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
add
Reminds me of when I started out 27 years ago. Real A holes of bosses but know what? It taught me a lot. Taught me how not to treat my employees. Taught me how to be a better builder even though its a stupied way to learn.
FAST was always the word. BAng those wquares of roofing or siding up. Use one less nail. I had more than half a dozen bosses back then tell me that.
With half a brain you'll learn a lot from these idiots..what NOT to do when its your turn.
Treat your craft like the face of the Buddha. Shine on! Its your signature on everything you build.
Eventually start taking on your own jobs. Small ones to start and before you know it..........
Be thoughtful
Namaste
Andy
PS...I use to do a lot of work upstate in Woodstock.......where upstate are you located?
I'm on LI and going to need some help on my circa 1680 house in a month or so.
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Encouragement is great and I offer it to this young'un but I think maybe some of you are jumping the gun on pushuing him to self employment.
He has a family to think of and he is young. He does need to stand up to this boss by asking questions like,
"Am I not making you money?"
"Can you teach me how to do better?"
"How did you get so good?"
"Teach me everything you know, so I can make both of us more money"
I'm all for self-employment and this industry is a great way to participate in the American dream, but it takes more than hard work - that's only half of it. I think he implies that he needs the experience.
Beyond that - no need to worry about the economy, it is a stallion that just became unbridled..
Excellence is its own reward!
Sorry, but I have no real sympathy for the original poster . I am looking at things from a different perspective------
the fact that the poster is 26----means nothing.
the fact that the poster earns only $9/hour----means nothing
the fact that the posterr is " a proud american"----means nothing
the fact that the poster has a family to feed and bills to pay----means nothing.
the fact that he is willing to work hours off the clock to fix his mistakes----means nothing----less than nothing actually
therre are several harsh truths in life---best learned BEFORE you are 26 with a family to feed on $9/hour.How much you NEED has nothing to do with what you are worth to your employer.
One of the facts is---that people are generally paid pretty much what they are worth to their employer. If you feel you are worth more---prove it to yourself and your family by earning more---either with another employer or through self employment.If you are unable to do that---then maybe you aren't yet worth more.
A $9/hour job should not be difficult to replace with self employment. $9/hour x 40 hours =$360. $360 is a VERY attainable single days earnings for the self employed.
Take on a few side jobs----you will very quickly find out if the market thinks you are worth more----or if you should be greatfull that someone is willing to pay you $9/hour!
BTW----the reason I have no sympathy is that 15-16 years ago I was in largely the same boat( married, a 14 month old son and one more on the way, with a job paying $6.50/hour. Then I stopped waiting for someone to provide me with a living---and went out and EARNED one. This guy can do the same----once he stops patting himself on the back for being a proud american---he can actually DO something to be proud of.
Brilliant.
Well said.
Maybe that is what is right for him. Only he can tell. .
Excellence is its own reward!
Normally I not argumentative on this forum, but
"One of the facts is---that people are generally paid pretty much what they are worth to their employer."
I completely disagree.
I can't tell you how many people I know who have left jobs for others to earn double and triple what they were being paid at the previous job. Lots of employers are notorious for underpaying.
These employers often tell these hardworking, go getting, but naive young people stuff like "there is no money in the budget" or "you have to put in your time." A lot of employers take the attitude that if an employee gets a better offer they will match or offer just slightly more, and often that strategy works.
Only after the person left do the realize what the lost, but at the same time often they can't admit it to even themselves.
Jon
I'm completely with you on this one, Jon!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Since I have at least one person in this forum who agrees with me, I'll go a little farther.
I've noticed that there are good managers/business owners who play by the implicit rules and treat others (both customers and employees) well, and the others who take the low road by finding customers they can over charge, and employees they can under pay due to (superior?) negotiating and sales skills.
If you feel you are being underpaid the Dept. of Labor Statistics has a lot of online data. If you find that you are and it's considerable, find a new employer.
Jon
Edited 4/17/2003 10:01:18 PM ET by WorkshopJon
IMHO nobody who sets out to "win" while the other person "loses" is superior in any meaningful way.
A few years back I had an offer from my then boss' competitor to switch to his company with a $5,000 signing bonus, my own branch office and various other bennies. I started my own company instead, but the competitor's offer spurred me on.
I know a variety of people who have either lost a job or started into self-empoyment because of an unreasonable employer.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Workshop Jon----I stand by my statement that people are generally paid what they are worth to their employer.
If I have a laborer on my crew being paid $10.50 an hour----that's what his work is worth to me.I can replace him with any of dozens of applicants for the same wage if he chooses to leave for other employment. If he can find work at $12 or $24 with another employer----that's great. But ------that doesn't mean he is worth more than $10.50 to my company.
now----if that laborer learns additional skills and is qualified to fill a spot on the crew as a roofer at say $14-$17 an hour---thats great also. however if I don't need an additional roofer----despite his new skills,his choice is to continue at the $10.50/hour laborers job or look for work elsewhere.his work as a laborer is only worth $10.50----it doesn't matter if he ALSO has finish carpentry skills or is a dental hygenist----for me he is working as a laborer.
so, if your friends were able to leave one employer and find work at double or triple their former wages----thats fantastic. but that doesn't mean they were worth any more to their former employer.
"so, if your friends were able to leave one employer and find work at double or triple their former wages----thats fantastic. but that doesn't mean they were worth any more to their former employer."
Seems to me that after they left, and the employer found that that employee couldn't be replaced for what they were paying that person, then they were being underpaid. I think your frame of reference is more the building trades, and within that industry, wages may be more uniform within a given trade and skill level. If that is the case, it's easy for both people to know what is fair.
However, the are a lot of professions where positions are a little more unique and don't so easily fall into a category like "roofer." When that person works very hard, is getting a lot done to a high quality level, and is told they are getting paid as much as possible, then after they quit are replaced by much higher paid person with fewer responsibilities. The employer was underpaying the employee.
I know of numerous examples of this happening. There are a lot of employers out there who either just don't get it or deliberately take advantage of people with above average talent, hoping to keep them on as long as possible, because they are making money off of them.
Why don't they pay them more? Because they got ahead by taking advantage of people, not by being (or even knowing how to be) a good manager. Talk may be chaep, but some are still really good at it.
Sorry to tell you this Jon-----but for the purposes of this discussion--------AND---in line with the original posters statement----your friends experience in another industry isn't really a factor here.
After all----we had a question from a young tradesman who feels he is under paid. My response is as a small employer in a segment of the industry closely applicable to this young poster. I am pretty sure I have a good grasp of the situation this young man finds himself in-----I employ several guys just like him each year----and I was once in pretty much the same situation myself. What you describe of your friends situation may well be true----in their industry------but essentially meaningless to OUR industry. As you note----your friends were not easily replaceable-----but most likely this poster is quite easily replaceable. If he is easily replaceable----he probably is NOT being really underpaid----it's a function of supply and demand.
It's quite humbling ---and infuriating ---to realize that your efforts are really just a commodity being bought and sold on the open market.Once a tradesman realizes that,however---he can begin to take steps to improve his situation.
HE has to realize that however----no one else can do that for him. On some level we all have to accept responsibility for our own lot in life.
I think we would both agree that this young man might be well served by at least cautiously exploring other employment. He will find out soon enough if he is underpaid.
Well, I've worked in several industries, including construction; and, it's pretty much the same in any professionally managed environment: you don't pay the person, you pay the position. Unfortunately, some people do take this personally and equate what the job is worth to what they are worth (or think they're worth).
There are some things which will bend this natural rule:
- more in large companies, an employer may pay a skills premium for a promotable employee while they are growing into their next job.
- you sometime pay retention premiums for really good employees; however, this may also be in the form of perqs, or "last man standing" (aka: best seat in the lifeboat) treatment in slow times.
- labour conditions greatly change what a position is worth: in a tight labour market, even the grunts are buying new cars while in loose markets you can replace even skilled labour the same day.
- some shops get into production bonuses, quality bonuses, profit sharing, awards, you-name-it - really tricky to administer.
- having a union usually distorts the scenario
- AND, there are soft-hearted, miserly, incompetent, kind, and mean employers out there along with the pros.
"Taken advantage of" ? Maybe; but, they only do it because they can. I've heard the "letting a good employee escape" story dozens of times, and it's generally true less than half the time. And do yourself a favour and don't mention the subject while you're being interviewed for your next position.
.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
In our capitalistic system, a lot of employees fail to realize that their efforts should be profitable to their employer. In purely business terms, an employee is a tool, in many ways little different from a machine employed to perform a task efficiently and accurately.
Humans are much more complex than machines, of course, and require a little more care. Some bosses and managers treat employees no better, and sometimes worse, than their tools and shame on them!
But a boss or manager who is savvy and professional will treat his employees fairly knowing that it's in his best interest to do so.
Just as there are pathetic bosses, there are also employees who sometimes have an inflated view of their capabilities and worth.
Capitalism has no conscience, so it falls on employees and their bosses, or ultimately, the oversight of agencies like the wage and hour board to keep things on an even keel.
Just a final observation: It's been my experience that, generally speaking, the vendors, subs and other various businesses I deal with that are the most successful and easiest to deal with are those with low employee turnover.
Phill,
Hate to take up much more of your time on this already dying (dead?) thread but...
"I've heard the "letting a good employee escape" story dozens of times, and it's generally true less than half the time."
On that one you are probably correct. But...
" And do yourself a favor and don't mention the subject while you're being interviewed for your next position."
I took that one a little personally. FYI, I've worked for the same employer for almost ten years and always made sure we both got our money's worth. Employment definitely should be a two way street, but sometimes people want to make it a one way.
Jon
The point of that was that an interviewing employer doesn't really want to hear one side of a dispute between you and your previous boss - at best it makes them wonder what you'll say about them some day..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Phill,
I think you are right that an employer doesn't want to hear just one side, but I think they would like to know both if they have the opportunity. I do see where you are coming from . Better to not volunteer anything that could hurt your chances at a better job. Never been in that situation myself. Always made it a point to do more than what was expected and leave on good terms
Jon
don't forget to jamb a few donuts under his seat.
I think the key to understanding your statement is the word, "generally"
There are plenty of employers who will pay less than they know a man is worth to them because they can get away with it.
I remember - just barely - when I was young and dumb and glad to have a job - any job.
After awhile I was a pretty fair hand at shingling and the other guys on the crew kept telling me that I was worth more than I was getting. But whenever I asked the boss for more money, he kept putting me off and eventually came up wtih a ten cent raise.
Another roofer offered me another fifty cents to do the same exact work. I pulled my freight the next week.
Old boss man came around with an apology for not coming across sooner and offerd me another twenty five cents to come back to him. I said it didn't seem right after just getting started with new guy.
So he upped it to another fifty cents.
I accepted, of course, having learned my true value to him ay 30% more than I had been making. and i could tell he was happy with the deal.
Another time, I was working the tail end of a line in an egg factory. I never hustled my buns like I did there.
Hated the area anyways so I planned to leave after payday next week and hit the road. Day before payday, the girl a next stage up on the line told me that they normally always needed two men to do the work I was doing for the last two weeks. So my value was double what they were paying me, established by precedent. I was just too dumb to know what my value was. That is the key to all wage negotiations. Know you true worth.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
A few rambling thought's of mine, This is a question that I quit asking my friends, " If , you had a person working for you at $ 2 per hour, and you could afford to pay him $3 , would you do it ??" Myself , I wanted into this business, I got in as a"mudtender". I always figured people would treat me "fair", I consider myself to be partly to blame, as far as defining the word FAIR, in the construction world , and life itself. Now, the only people that I have to share my definition of the word "fair" too, is the HO, and that is only if they ask. I clipped this out of a magizine, "In Business, you don't get what You deserve, You get what You Negotiate" I stuck right where I can see it,,, everday. You all be safe out there Jim J
Combine your "negotiate" post..
with mine..
and Hazlett's...
and this guy might be able to see who the real world works.
26......that ain't no kid.....I knew how the world worked by 16!
Life's tough. Hard work alone get's ya a bad back.
I just fought with a GC I sub for alot over a $130 additional work order.
If I hadn't spent the 1/2 hour I'da lost what I had invested.....plus....he'd have taken that inch and expected a mile the next time.
Life ain't a bed of roses when other people own ya money. I'm doing one job for a little over $4K..and the guy is bitching about $130......U gotta have some deep convictions about earning your keep when going solo.....or the wolves will eat yer lunch.
I agree with Hazlett on this one. Make yourself useful. Coulda/shoulda/woulda means nothing. Seperate yourself from the pack. Then negotiate with a leg to stand on...and be prepared to take the walk if U have to.
Again...people treat ya how U let them.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
holy cow----I gotta write this down.
by my recollection this makes exactly 2 times in 5 years Jeff and I have agreed on ANYTHING!
Piffen raises an interesting point though.Who has the responsibility for setting a persons wage----the employee or the employer?
after all----employees rarely volunteer information like they might have been willing to sign on for LESS----so it's not really un-reasonable for employers to fail to mention they might have paid MORE.I know MY employers----CUSTOMERS----rarely volunteer that they would have paid more than my proposed price---it's up to me to sell the job at my price .Ultimately---I think---a wage earner is in the same situation. It is up to the wage earner to sell his services at a price he feels is fair----it's NOT the employers responsibility to announce the maximum he can pay.
I almost started my post the same way....
"dear diary, Steve and I agreed today....sorta..."
....
So this must be true!
that.........and take in the fact I'm a sole prop and U have employees.....
different ends of the spectrum and we still see eye to eye....
should make someone think........or at least read......
BTW.....this might make 4 or 5???........U ain't all that bad........
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Real A holes of bosses but know what? It taught me a lot. Taught me how not to treat my employees. Taught me how to be a better builder
Hi Andy! Good point, gotta pay attention to all the lessons to the best of our abilitiy. Your post reminds me of one of my favorite bumper stickers:
I'm not completely worthless, I can always serve as a bad example!
;-)Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Add,
Boy, do I hear where you're coming from! As a young framer, I also get a lot of joking ridicule from my crew mates about taking so long on "unimportant" things. "Just get it done" they say. My boss also used to always complain about how long it would take me to do something. Now, I've been framing for over a year now and I have gotten a lot better and faster at most things. But I will never, NEVER go faster than I can do the job right and relatively safely. I think my boss has learned to respect that, b/c he rearely complains anymore. I have one coworker, coincidentally, who always claims after we have to fix one of his mistakes, "It's only natural to make a few mistakes when I do 3 times the work you do in a day." To which I reply "OK, so I am going to spend 30 minutes fixing your mistake that 'saved' you 10 seconds at most." Keep doing a good job, and try to find a happy medium, brother.
You either need a new boss or a new attitude - Kinda hard to tell without really knowing you.
Be proactive, and do something about your situation. Venting here is fine, but it won't solve your problems.
The other night I ate at a real nice family restaurant. Every table had an argument going.
Reading through this thread I think you've gotten some very good advice already. Everyone has made a good point or two. And you came to ask for the opinions of others. Good work! That's a start!
I suggest a new job. Start thinking that you work for yourself. You already do, you just haven't quite realized it yet. To succeed in any business (I've failed and succeeded at various ones!) you have to learn more, apply it well, and remember that the governmental designation of "employee" doesn't mean much. It's what you are doing and what you are learning that matters. It stays with you into the future and allows you to create a better future for yourself and your family. The more you imagine yourself as on your way to someplace better, the less likely that your current boss or your next boss will think they can walk on you. Hit 'em where it hurts: Work to be better than they are! And the only way there is to learn....
Personally, I wouldn't recommend going solo now (although it sounds like something I would have done/actually did!). Go work for someone else. Learn their perspective. Copy what you like and learn from what you don't like. There are both good and bad employers out there.
Best wishes!
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
wow... work a week and the messages just come in.thanks everybody for your insite.however my initial post way leaning more towards (take a moment and thank your help) than the money aspect..you know sit around the forms and sing kum by yah...warm mushy stuff.i'm still working for the guy and i'm gonna learn a lot.and hes real happy with my work.i live in the elmira corning area and am still a proud american.as for the money many of you know what corning and elmira is like business wise.so as for pay i'll take whatever i can get and 9 and hour is nothing to sneeze around here.my sole purpose is to learn everything i can and i dont care how much pine i have to cry on in frustration to do so.as for self employment i was doing such but right now in my location it's just not working so i'll learn and wait.you all brought up some real good points even the negative ones and i read and learned from every one of them.contrary to some post's 26 a'nt nothing in this bizz no mater how much you've done when your working with or for someone whos been doing this for 35 years there just better smarter and faster.my boss is a good guy and he's real good at our aspect of the trade so i stand to learn a lot and who knows someday be him.(however i will always thank someone for good work done) so just as a test thank your workers tomorrow and see what they do for you the next day. again thank you all for your time.
You're a good man with reason to call yourself a proud American.
God Bless .
Excellence is its own reward!