Hardboard siding seems to have a bad name, and it has some definate weak points,
but I dont think its all that bad. (OK, go ahead and yell at me now)
I have often used this stuff as a trim material in fairly well protected places like
wrapping porch beams, or a rake board to dress things up.
( I dont know the exact name for it, but LP makes it in
both smooth and woodgrain versions, in both a full 8″ and a full 12″. The only place I
have found it is at Menards, they call it “cedar lap”.) As a trim material it is dirt cheap,
a 12″ x 16′ costs me 10.99, compare that to smarttrim!
Except for a few repair jobs, I had never before installed it as siding untill recently
when a customer was looking for a less expensive alternative to real 12″ cedar.
As I thought about it, most of the places where I have had to repair this siding is
where it had a lot of exposure to water and also most of it was origonally installed
in the 1970’s. That makes it 30 years old, even vinyl looks terrible after 30 years.
So aside from the fact that it needs to be installed properly, and maintained well
with paint, are there other issues that I am not aware of?
Replies
You got the installed properly part down.
It's the maintained part that is out of your control.
However, the reputation of the end result can follow you for a long time.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
The main problem is that there is no real standard for hardboard siding, so each manufacturer makes it as good or as bad as they choose. Some of the stuff is good and some not so good. We have some Masonite brand stuff that is almost literally bullet proof, but the stuff it replaced was barely stronger than foam board.
The main issue is to what degree it's "tempered". (Tempering is heat treating with an oil that converts to phenolic resin when heated.) The best stuff is heavily tempered all the way through, the crummy stuff only lightly tempered on one surface (and not on the edges).
Even the lightly-tempered stuff, though, will hold up a lot better if properly coated. Many of the problems of the late 70s construction occurred when the lightly-tempered stuff was painted with flat latex paints like Olympic Overcoat. These paints provided very little moisture resistance, and so water got through to the siding very readily. The exact same siding when painted with an alkyd primer and good quality satin latex held up fairly well.
Do you have any opinion as to the quality of the LP product? This product has
embossing on the back that resembles a screen kinda and seems pretty hard.
The edges are soft when cut
though. (i always prime any cuts) what manufacturer
owns the masonite brand?
No real opinions on current brands. Masonite stopped making siding (and also "Masonite" sheets) about 20 years back and now just makes doors, AFAIK.The Masonite stuff we used had a screen pattern on the back and was hard on all surfaces and even cut edges. You could see the dark color of the tempering resin all the way through.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Priming the cuts will probably help keep the water from penetrating.We used masonite quite a bit in the 70's and early 80's. It was usually used on the sides and back of the house, with cedar on the front. We would always try to use the factory edges for the butt joints and use the cut for corners where they will be caulked anyways. Leave a 1/8" gap in the corners and around windows and doors to allow for expansion. Too tight can cause buckling. Also, dont set the nail heads below the surface, it will break the coating, and allow the water to penetrate. On the butt joints where you angle the nail slightly, we put a little dab of caulking around the nail head to help seal it. As far as durability, its not very good near the ground where it will soak in the water or snow. I have replaced plenty of rotten bottom courses. I would probably go with the wood grained over the smooth. because the textured surface seems to hold the paint better. I have seen where people have had paint peeling problems with the smooth siding. That could be from the wrong paint/primer or preparation, maybe some painters can recommend what is best for masonite.
If you want to use something like that use Miratec. It is treated hardboard and I believe it has a much stronger warranty than the LP product. Last time I had the LP product, which was about 4 years ago, I researched the warranty and all I got was a bunch of double-talk. A salesmen had switched me out for that rather than Miratec. I sent the whole truck load back and never bought from that guy again, It may not be the same product you are using. How about telling about the warranty for the product you are using.
I understand value in product, but you gotta consider the longevity of the install vs the labor expense. If we are talking door mats buy them as cheap as you want...
Edit to add - oops - I see you are talking about actual siding - not trim. The wrapping of porch posts, etc threw me. None the less, I wouldn't use it. I'd rather put up vinyl!
Edited 6/24/2009 9:45 pm ET by Matt
I like the miratec and the primetrim also but it is quite a bit more expensive.
Yes, I have used this hardboard product for some trim elements, but usually only in
protected areas. I have only recently installed it as siding (except for a few repairs)
and only did so because it was the only siding that we could find that could be
installed with a 9" course (what the owner wanted)
Humidity does tend to delaminate it. It doesn't need direct rain to delaminate.. I had 25 inch overhangs on my house and still it delaminated..
basically it's pressed paper.
I think thats why its so important to keep it properly painted.
Yes its basically pressed paper, but so is MDF, acoustic cieling tiles, and celulose
insulation, amoung others. Each can be fine if used properly.
Edited 6/24/2009 10:39 pm ET by LIVEONSAWDUST
paint isn't the solution.. Not with paper as your outside wall. when will people learn that cheap isn't durable it's just cheap.. and cheap only in the sense of first cost not total cost.
Too bad value isn't taught anymore.. If it was a lot of things wouldn't be used. more durable less maintinace intensive stuff would be instead.. brick, stone, etc..
Ours is 25 yrs old, in good shape and has been painted twice.
What do you consider "long-term"?
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Mine was less than 10 years old and already badly delaminating. I painted it shortly after moving in but it got worse and worse.. (this is with 25 inch overhangs)
as for what I consider long term.. well how long does it take to grow the wood that your house was built with?
100 years? That would be fine if our population was steady but sincce it's growing and with that growth comes deminishing area's to grow replacement wood so let's just say 200 years, shall we?
Start thinking in terms like that and it's easy to figure out value..
You got the really carpy stuff. Some folks got the only slightly carpy stuff, and it holds up well with occasional painting -- 25-50 year life, which is as good as "permanent" siding. The stuff we have I'd expect to last 100 years, with a paint job every 15 years or so. A lot of the current (new growth) wood siding isn't likely to last that long.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
First it's paper not wood!
second I had Louisiana Pacific which was sued over their product and lost.
We called it B.S. board. It looks just like compressed B.S.
Hardboard siding is made from wood fibers. Paper is made from wood fibers. That does not mean that hardboard siding is made from paper any more than OSB is, or any other wood composite.Lots of manufacturers had hardboard products and got sued about them, some justifiably, and some who just got caught up in the rush to judgment. This does not mean that all hardboard products were carp, only that some were.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
So, which 200 year siding do you have on your house (besides stone/brick)?A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Stone
Besides stone/brickA La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
There's a lot of 200+ year old houses with the original quarried limestone siding (walls) hereabouts. Look just like they did in the late 1700's.
I know. I asked what 200 yr product he had for siding that was NOT stone/brick.
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Well stone and brick surrounded by black walnut timbers.. if you do a little reading you'll find that black walnut is even more decay resistant than white oak is and white oak has survived on some European timberframes for 4&5 centuries.
A local grist mill was sided in black walnut, and it was probably over 150 years old. Worn down to nothing, but not rotted. They restored the mill with new black walnut siding.
Thanks everyone for the replies
I never tried to claim its a great product, but I dont think its all bad either.
For the house in question, there just wasn't a lot of choice. This is a 2-story fairly
large home built in 1980. It was origonally sided with 10" RS cedar installed with a
9 to 9 1/2" exposure. In some areas it had shrunk enough that it was no longer
lapped!! The owners like the wide exposure and were unwilling to accept anything
narrower. 2 or 3 years ago, I replaced the sides of the house that were in the worst
condition with 12" cedar. At that time it was expensive enough (3.69 per L. F.)
This year the qoute was 4.39 . Owner says " enough is enough, there has to be an
alternative". The only thing I found that came in 12" width was the hardboard.
Hardboard cost was less than .70 L.F.
Sorry Frenchy, but stone and brick just dont fit in many peoples budget, and Black
Walnut??!! come on! I never heard of that on the exterior of any house but yours!
How to tell if you've got the good stuff:Buy a sample stick of the stuff you're considering and lay it in the dirt for a few weeks, wetting it occasionally. The good stuff will come out dirty but otherwise unchanged, while the carp will swell to twice it's original thickness.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Good tip
if you get into this again,do you know hardi makes 12"? comes in 12' pcs.
i think masonite gets a bad rap. does it last forever? no, but what siding does? vinyl,cedar, redwood etc.? they all have there downs side.
i wonder how long before were all talking about how hardi doesn't hold up?
my vote for best siding? asbestos 12" 18" most is still as good as when it was put up in the 50's ,never needed painted. but it sure is ugly...............YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'TMOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THEDUCT TAPE.
No, I did not know Hardi came in 12". My supplier said it did not, perhaps I should have looked further....
>> Ours is 25 yrs old, in good shape and has been painted twice. <<
WOW!! Was that twice after the initial coat or 2 total? Does it need painting now?
Original, recoat, sand/prime/2coat 3 years ago...
got a many more years to go on this one.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Hack says his first paintjob lasted 22 years.... Anyone got any thoughts on that? Siding aside - I'd have to wonder how the trim (wood?) and windows (again - wood?) heald up. I know the caulk didn't hold up that long...
Hack says his first paintjob lasted 22 years
No, I didn't. The original was re-coated by the original owner's (hack) painter after some number of years and THEN I sanded/primed/painted the house a different color scheme after the siding was 22 years old. The caulk held up fine but I re-caulked as part of the job.
The siding was and is in good shape despite having no vapor barrier and a minimum of maintenance over its lifespan.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
OK - sorry I misread you.
None the less - sounds like paint can last pretty well on hardboard. I always thought that one of the downsides of hardboard was that the paint had to be well maintained or rot could result. Or at least that was what the mfgs were saying back in the 90s when the failure epidemic was in full swing. I owned a house that when built in 1994 had hardboard siding and trim installed. By 1999 there was rot in the siding and trim, presumably from a poor initial paint job and incorrect installation methods. Good to know that some people have had good luck with hardboard siding - but for me - no thanks. Related - I'm still suspicious of Miratec, but have seen no failures.
That's ok. Almost all the homes in our subdivision have the same siding...
and almost all of them have failed because the installers did not raise the siding off the shingles at the rakes. Ours was having trouble at those locations so I cut the siding up and installed miratec rake boards 1.5" off the shingles.
All the siding is in very good shape otherwise.
View ImageA La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Yeah, the original siding on our house was essentially resting on the roof at the rake. That area was some of the worst. When I resided I observed Masonite's instructions and held it 2" off, plus (of course) primed/painted the cut edges before installation. No problems 18 years later.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
So you and I actually share an opinion. I think the world's spinning just hiccupped. ;)
The installers in our area were the worst and compounded the lack of talent the roofers displayed...
they actually applied silicone caulk to the rake siding/shingle seam. With no roofing felt and flashing nails at the bottom of many steps, the water had no altermative but to wick the siding and soak the decking.
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Our caulk job on our hardboard has held up for something like 18 years now. No signs of failure.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Actually, the good stuff is a true composite, bound together with the tempering resin. Much more than just "pressed paper".
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
The stuff burns real good. Something to think about. I have hardie plank on my own home partially for that reason, but I probably would still have the hardboard if it hadn't turned to fluff and rot.
Edited 6/24/2009 10:48 pm ET by Dam_inspector
From what I remember years ago that there was a piece of paper that came with hardboard siding that said it was not to be installed in humid areas. Isn't that a huge red flag?
For about 5 years after we resided I kept finding chunks of the stuff in the flower beds around our house, where we'd used it under the legs of the scaffolding. It was still in good shape, after spending years in the mud. Cedar or redwood wouldn't have held up as well.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
That is interesting what your said. Have you come to any conclusion why the difference? When I lived in WA on the farm we had cedar fence posts that had been in the water for years without any damage. But I have also noticed that it was quicker to rot when in the ground with some moisture and was not nearly as wet. WE also noticed that wood encased in concrete rotted very quickly compared to wood that only had concrete around it but the bottom was open and gravel underneath.
Edited 6/25/2009 12:53 pm by gb93433
The fact that wood rots quickly when encased in concrete is well known -- concrete draws in moisture from the soil and keeps the wood wet. (But this doesn't keep "experts" from continuing to recommend the practice.)Rot is dependent on a lot of factors. If you investigate you'll usually find that a post rots most quickly in the several inches just below ground level. It's probably a combination of moisture and air (oxygen) that's at work. Wood fully immersed in fresh water rots relatively slowly.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
"SMART-SIDE"
Smartside was not the product I was using. I was using ABT Hardboard by LP.
I must take exception to the "Bad Builder" comment, the 12" hardboard was the only product I could locate that was 12" (except for 12" cedar, which the customer thought was too expensive)
Most of my life has been spent doing work for rich people. I find that those I have worked for have wanted the best people. So I have not seen rich people and poor builders in that combination.