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Hardi panels …

JeffBuck | Posted in Construction Techniques on April 23, 2009 04:03am

going to write up a bid.

what am I in for?

 

In know they’re heavy … most sheets will be cut to around 9′ so that’s about 80lbs per sheet. They have t-111 at the moment, modern house and like the look ….

so the t-111 will get overlayed with Hardi Sierra 8.

rough addition in the truck came up with 112 sheets.

 

that’s roughly 8,960 lbs to hang on a house.

2.5 / 3 story modern house … highest is around 30ft up …

so it’s low compared to the last one that got Hardi siding.

 

thinking rental ladder-vader tied to the pics up on alumapoles to send the panels up.

 

Have no idea of daily progress / coverage numbers … just gonna fake the old “that’ll take about a day” method. Should get me close.

Thinking more unskilled help than with a regular siding job …

thinking at least 2 guys up high … and 2 on the ground to somehow get it up there … maybe the 2 ground guys cut / load the ladder-vader if that idea looks like it’ll work.

will have to be face nailed … will be gun’d stainless siding nails.

only new detail introduced will be corner boards … thin and painted to blend/match.

current t-111 is just lapped at the corners.

 

any ideas on production rates?

in the end … I’m thinking it’ll be close to regular siding progress. Less time and quicker coverage … but moving, loading, elevating, positioning, holding then nailing 80 lbs sheets one at a time ain’t gonna be fast.

so far best thot is a ledge face screwed to the row below.

Jeff

    Buck Construction

 Artistry In Carpentry

     Pittsburgh Pa

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Dam_inspector | Apr 23, 2009 04:13am | #1

    Im going to put a guestimate that it will take twice as long as t-111 would.

  2. User avater
    Ted W. | Apr 23, 2009 04:24am | #2

    At 1/2 hour a sheet that's about 38 hours. Multiply that by your 4 labors plus you. Not enough detail about the corner boards - 3 pieces? 20 pieces? I guess add $5 a foot. How am I doing so far?

    ~ Ted W ~

    Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
    Meet me at House & Builder!



    Edited 4/22/2009 9:26 pm by Ted W.

  3. windwash | Apr 23, 2009 04:33am | #3

    I would agree with Dam inspector.

    As far as stacking the panels, I think there should be a metal Z flashing and a 1/4" space. Some 1/4" spacers and a dab of caulk to temporarily hold them in place should give you something to set the panels on.

    What will the detail around the windows be? Flashings?

    If the Hardie lands on any roofs you need a 2"space, will you be able to see T1-11 below it?

  4. jimAKAblue | Apr 23, 2009 06:02am | #4

    The good news is that the existing T1-11 will make a nice nailing substrate. You don't want to get the nails too close to the edges of that new (brittle) hardi.

    For the record, and I'm sure no one cares, I hate all Hardi products. Every cut is a beech and the stuff wears out pencils, blades etc. And....the stuff is brutal on the lungs unless it's windy.

    I also agree that it takes about the same time as hardi lapsiding. There are pluses and minuss that cancel each other out. We got our hats handed to us when we did our first hardi sheet panel job. We thought we would make good time because of the 4' wide sheets but it took more than the normal one guy to set and nail them. I think you are right using the extra guys if you don't do this every day.

    I'm glad I'm not bidding this one.

    1. User avater
      JeffBuck | Apr 23, 2009 05:55pm | #5

      the existing t-111 is run from the bottom up ... 3 "rows" high across the face of the wall(s) ... and the top sheet overlaps the one below.

      First thought was find how deep that over lap was, cut it ... flatten it ... then run the hardi with band boards to cover the seams.

      The home owners really like that lapped detail ... so my first / bottom rom will be cut to hit under that second row of t-111 ... then the second row of hardi will do the same above ... and run down over the first row ... to create the "lap" that they like.

      so no need for z flashing.

      Gonna wrap the t-111 with house wrap and treat everything like a regular ply job. Tape the windows to the wrap. Run the brick mould type casing and miratec corner boards ... then lay the panels. Caulk ... done!

      see how easy that sounds?

       

      Just had to retype my fax transmittal sheet as I lost it somewhere in the computer ...

      so I'm off track. But as I was waking up this morning I came up with a great schedule for this job ... just gotta remember what it was.

      Jeff    Buck Construction

       Artistry In Carpentry

           Pittsburgh Pa

      1. dovetail97128 | Apr 23, 2009 06:11pm | #6

        Jeff,
        Current job:
        165 pcs of Hardie. (4x 8)
        20' to top of Hardie panels, 2 runs of "z" covered with a wide band
        (as per archie)
        Board and batten look (Battens at 4' OC up to the first 4' to create a wainscot look, then a wide drip cap and batts 2' OC. above that , so lots of details and trimming, corner boards all screwed on, caulked etc.) few windows /doors compared to a house though.
        Hardie is screwed on not nailed.
        All ladders and planks, hand lifted to position.
        4-5 guys working on it ( different days different #) They expected 2 1/2 weeks, actually looks like a full 3 before they get finished.

        They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

        1. User avater
          JeffBuck | Apr 24, 2009 01:13am | #7

          I'm thinking a full week per side ... so will bid it at 5 weeks.

          dragging the 36ft pump jacks around the house is gonna eat up some time on this lot. One side I'm thinking I'll have to build a small deck first just to have somewhere to set the feet. Just a steep muddy drop off down into the neighbors yard there.

          Front would be easy aside from a 2nd story 4x4 bump out that makes for cover over the door ... just big enough to get in the way of the pic ... so that'll be worked one side, move the whole deal then work the other.

          Other side is tight but workable ... and back looks like the work will flow.

          actually have the work penciled in the notebook as 4 , 6 day weeks per side.

          Just figuring how to tip the poles into place is gonna be fun. Ladders and jacks may end up being easier/faster ...

          Jeff    Buck Construction

           Artistry In Carpentry

               Pittsburgh Pa

          1. seeyou | Apr 24, 2009 01:39am | #10

            Hey Jeff -

            What's the terrain like 20-30 ft back from the house? If you could get it in there, this is a good use for a boom lift. If it's accessable, you could rent a boom and get rid of two of the guys and the pump jack setup/tear down time and go home a lot less tired at the end of the day. Use Diesel fuel to put those 4x9s in place.

            May not be practicle - I can only use mine on about half the jobs we do. But the half we can use it on go faster than the ones we can't.http://www.quittintime.com/      View Image        

          2. User avater
            dieselpig | Apr 24, 2009 05:05am | #14

            That'd be my first choice too.View Image

          3. User avater
            JeffBuck | Apr 24, 2009 04:51pm | #18

            only room to get a machine would be the front.

            left side has a 3ft walkway next to the neighbors fence ... right side is that 2ft or so of dirt before it falls into the other neighbors property ... that's where I'll have to build a deck or piers of some sort to even have room for the poles feet.

            back is a nice poured pad the whole way ... but no way to get to it. Steep landscaped area that leads to the woods ... thinking there's houses back there somewhere from another street ... I did see a little family of deer when I stopped to measure. Always get a kick outta seeing deer in a city neighborhood.

            This is the same city neighborhood where those 3 cops were shot the other week.

            Finally learned where exactly that neighborhood was.

            Jeff

                 Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

        2. User avater
          JeffBuck | Apr 24, 2009 01:15am | #8

          I remember the "screw the hardi" discussion.

          why was it decided to be screwed again?

          and what kinda screws did you settle on?

           

          Jeff    Buck Construction

           Artistry In Carpentry

               Pittsburgh Pa

          1. dovetail97128 | Apr 24, 2009 01:28am | #9

            Screws were the choice because of the Hardie wind loading requirements.
            Plastic strips in the ICF for fastening to made nails a worrisome aspect given the 100mph wind zone.
            Believe me, if I felt I had a choice stainless nails would have been the way. Ended up with Phillips Cement Board screws, They are Green colored and have a knurling just below the head. Available only through Lowes up until just recently when Lowes dropped the line, something I discovered when I needed more!!
            Company is sending me some that they had in stock gratis. Good people (Phillips, Company), they also said they are now looking for other outlets as Lowes had an exclusive. ( Unabashed plug for the company) Screws are the only ones I found that countersunk well, didn't break when placed near the edge of sheets. One issue was that they are NOT approved for weather exposure but since every fastener is covered with trim , and trim is caulked I felt I could risk that aspect, screws are approved for use under tile applications with Hardie, Durock, Wonderboard and PermaBase and are labled as "Will not rust". The knurling seemed to make a huge difference in how well they worked as opposed to screws with out the shank knurling.
            I will try to post some pics this weekend of what it all looks like.
            They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

          2. Don | Apr 24, 2009 02:59am | #12

            Have you investigated "Grabber" for the screws?DonDon Reinhard
            The Glass Masterworks
            "If it scratches, I etch it!"

          3. dovetail97128 | Apr 24, 2009 03:07am | #13

            Yes.
            I tried Grabber and a number of others.
            What I used was what I found locally to be available to me and worked best.
            The other screws I tried before settling on the Phillips either stripped out of the plastic strip embedded in the ICF before countersinking, wouldn't countersink, or broke the edge off the Hardie if used close to the edge.
            Having only 1 3/4" wide plastic strips to get into that last feature was very important.
            My experience is limited and I wouldn't make any claim that these are the best screw, just that they were the best out of what I tested.
            They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

          4. TracyMCL | Apr 24, 2009 07:06am | #15

            Grabber, Marker Dart, Hilti, Primsource all sell a comparable Hardi Screw with Clima- Cote Finish

          5. dovetail97128 | Apr 24, 2009 07:32am | #16

            The Grabber I tried did not have the knurling on the shaft beneath the head and broke the board when screwed close to the edge.
            I googled Marker, Hilti or Primesource (Which I also tried ).

            All I can say is I made my choice based on the screws I could obtain and try.
            The knurling really did seem to make the difference.
            They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

  5. User avater
    Ted W. | Apr 24, 2009 02:15am | #11

    On average, how long will it take your four guys to hang a panel? Just curious.

    ~ Ted W ~

    Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.net
    Meet me at House & Builder!

    1. User avater
      JeffBuck | Apr 24, 2009 04:59pm | #19

      beats me.

       

      have no idea at the moment ... might have a slight idea after we're done!

      there'll be 12 across the front/back and 6 across the sides.

      the ftback are fairly uniform ... the side are cut to fit around sloping ground and steps, and mechanicals ... guessing at "a row per day". 1 row per side.

      Still think 4 to 5 weeks ... basically a week per side. Might make for long Fridays ...

      might make for short Fridays.

      Even at a week per side ... thinking it'll take 5 weeks.

      things like ... having no room to stand, stage or even set materials on that one side slow life down.

      Jeff    Buck Construction

       Artistry In Carpentry

           Pittsburgh Pa

  6. Marson | Apr 24, 2009 03:44pm | #17

    I've done two houses with hardi panels. Both were tough sites--in one we had to have the pile in the back alley and walk the 4 x 10 sheets down a steep hill about 300' to the house. They are heavy, so you need strong backs. We used pumps. Two guys were up on the planks and the guy on the ground would stand the sheet up and hoist it high enough for the guys to get a grab on the corners and pull er up.

    On another house, a walkout that was 25-30' on the high side, we set up scaffold. We passed the sheets up on the low side and two guys walked them around on a system of planks.

    A boom lift would help immensely, but it would have to have an open platform obviously since you couldn't manage the pieces from a basket.

    In spite of these obstacles, it's a fast way to side a house. Once you got your planks set up and got a system for handing the panels up it just flies. Hardi sucks, you're gonna have a sore back, but it does go pretty fast. I would say that it takes maybe 2/3 of the time than the equivalent job done with hardi lap siding. Of course that is going to depend on trim details. And mind you, it's nothing you want to attempt with just two people. 3 would be minimum.

    I wouldn't be thrilled about doing the stuff off of ladder jacks and planks. But then maybe I'm just chicken--I'm not fond of wearing two pairs of socks!

    Oh yeah, plan on breaking a few!

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