OK – I’ve read just about every hardi plank thread for the last several months and also searched the archives. If I am reading these discussions correctly, it seems that the “rules” and best practices move and shift fairly rapidly. I am a DIY homeowner about to put up about 8 squares of the stuff. I borrowed a set of the shears, plan to prime the stuff and really don’t want to hand nail it. A contractor friend stapled the hardi plank on his own house where he didn’t care about violating the manufacturer rules. I don’t have a staple gun big enough and want to use my framing gun if possible. I am not worried about warranty issues; only a good install. Any suggestions as to what nails might work? Will I be blowing the back out of the board? I read the various discussions about not using ringed nails. I do live in Baton Rouge and we occasionally get 90-100 MPH winds during hurricane season. Any thoughts there? I know that I need HD or stainless. Thanks.
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Replies
for 8sq u might be better off to rent the gun you need from HD...
I have put it up with my paslode impulse and used 2.25 ring shank galv nails...
I always put a 3-4" wide strip of felt behind each butt joint for added protection... just....because
good luck
p
Thanks. I was leaning towards HD galv. nails about that size as I can get them for my gun. I do intend to flash with paper. Any thoughts about whether to prime the back side of the plank? I've seen advice both ways on that. I know the cut ends need to be primed or well caulked. My wife (who is in charge of the painting part of this) is starting to balk at any painting that isn't really mandatory.
i never have and not sure i would back prime... i think it'd trap moisture that might otherwise escape... i've never even primed the ends.. just caulked... i do use Vulkem which is a one part polyurathane... but then the oldest stuff i've used it on is still under 5yrs old... so...
p
According to a factory rep...do not prime the back side.
I have taken Nextlevel's advice from another thread and used screws on my last few installs. Tack the boards with three siding nails then screw them with decking screws. I have no idea what Hardi warranty thinks of this, but it gives a great finished product with none of the gaps or waves you can get with blind nailing. None of the jobs were very big so it's hard to tell how much slower it is, but it goes on at what seems like a reasonable speed.
8 squares?. IMO if you want a quality installation you should use SST screws - the ones designed for HP. Here's one vendor's web page, and there are others who sell the same type screws:
http://www.manasquanfasteners.com/specialty_fcsiding
Now the "pros" will laugh at using screws, but that's because most of them are more interested in speed than anything else. If HP is hung right you shouldn't have to touch it for 50+ years. I just don't see staples or galvanized nails holding for that length of time.
Also, get a Hitachi PVD Hardi blade for your framing or skill saw. It makes less dust and lasts 20X longer than a carbide blade. The shears are OK for straight cuts across the plank and gentle curves, but they don't work well for narrow or angle cuts that end in a sharp angle.
I tried deck screws with Certainteeds fiber cement and it didn't work. Also tried stainless steel trim head screws and again it didn't work.
I had 1/8" holes predrilled for each stud and it kept breaking.
I may try those screws next time. Woods favorite carpenter
By "break" I assume you mean the FC pane? You definitely don't want to over-drive them or the panel will crack. The real FC screws have cutter ribs under the head that help to countersink the hole. Nailers have more problems because they will either over or under-drive nails depending on the density of the backing boards or studs. With a square drive FC screw you can get the heads just about right most of the time.
The siding broke where the bugle head of the screw contacted it. Making it impossible to fasten it to the stud then.
I use nail guns with HD ring shank nails, I purposely set the guns to leave the nails underdriven after I tack a full piece in place I finish all nails off with a hammer.
Tell me about your technique, predilling, how far down from the top and edges did you put the screws?
I tried everything on the last job and it was a no go. Wrong screws probably had something to do with it. Woods favorite carpenter
Here is the procedure we used to hang 15 squares of HP. This probably makes no sense at all to a "pro", but we were doing this as DIYs and had no time pressure. All I wanted was a job that looked good and would last longer that me (I'm 52). We used pre-primed HP with the cedar mill pattern.1) Set the plank on hanger brackets and mark the stud locations on the top edge. We used a 7" exposure on 8-1/4" planks so that leaves 1-1/4" on the top for fasteners.2) From the back side for the panel, drill 9/64" holes spaced about 3/4" from the top edge. Flip the panel and countersink the holes. (Use carbide drill bits and countersink cutters - regular steel only works for one hole!)3) Caulk the butt end of the panel or trim and place the pre-drilled panel back on the hangers. Drive all the screws (#8 square drive w/the FC head). Tool the caulk that squeezes out and clean up the panel. We left a 1/16" gap between panels and tried to keep the gaps 1/8" or less at the ends where the panels met moulding or windows.4) If needed, put in screws on the exposed face near the bottom of a plank to pull the panel tight. For these holes you have to pre-drill through both pieces and c-sink a little deeper. These holes are filled with exterior spackle and tooled to match the pattern on the plank.Once we got going, the wife and I could hang about 5 straight pieces an hour. I know that sounds slow, but like I said we weren't on anybody's clock.
Edited 1/13/2008 4:54 pm ET by TJK
I was doing the same, just not countersinking them.
I read here that countersinking was not needed. Probably was.
Certainteed is more brittle as well. That also had a little to do with it.
Woods favorite carpenter
WARRANY VIOLATION ALERT!Your nail placement is WRONG with a capitol W! It is critical to place the fastener as low as possible for maximum holding power. You've placed your fasteners 3/4" below the top. That is too far up. You lose significant holding power by doing so.1/4" may not seem like much but to a Hardi panel that is flapping in the wind, it is significant. I would bet all my milkbones that a nailed hardi panel at the 1" mark will have more resistance to lift than your screwed panels at 3/4". You have committed what I consider to be the most common installation error on hardi panels. I know from experience (my guys tried to get away with that nailing pattern) that the lower you nail, the tighter the panels. Panels that are fastened at the 3/4" mark peel off effortlessly when removed. The hardi just breaks off and leaves holes and the fasteners just remain in the wood.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"WARRANY VIOLATION ALERT!Your nail placement is WRONG with a capitol W! "Thank you for that alert. I'll start ripping it all down this afternoon! Of course the siding has been up for over three years now and has survived 60 MPH winds and temps ranging from 105F to -11F. BTW your guys must be good to place nails within 1/4" every time using a pneumatic nailer
Don't rip it off just yet! If it starts flapping in the breeze, there is an easy fix: face nailing where needed.There is a difference between homeowner acceptance and manufacturer warranty work. You are entitled to install your product anyway you want. I just made that alert so innocent bystanders would carefully consider what might happen if they install at a 3/4" nailing line. I will not tell you that you didn't have a successful install, I will tell you that your installation does not meet Hardi's conditions for warranty. This is not a slam against you or the method...I'm just pointing out the facts. And to answer your question about us being good with Pneaumatics: yes we are. There is a reason though: there is a gun in the hands of my guys every day, every minute of the day. It becomes your second nature. When I install hardie, I tend to get the nails too low, rather than too high. When I veer off the theoretical nailing line, it tends to be on the down side. This results in the head of the nail peeking below the edge of the covering panel. No one is perfect and I can say that in most installations, I will have some peeking out. The critical difference though is that most of my applications are on the second story of a two story installation. I can say with certainty that no one has ever complained or noticed that 1/2 a nail head is showing, especially since they get painted anyways and become invisible as other posters have noted. In situations that are critical, I could mark a nailing line. Instead, I go a bit slower with my nailing process. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Here's an interesting deal I ran across...
http://www.bigskyadapter.com/bigskyadapter.htmPJ
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
I think it is the brittle siding. With Hardi plank I don't pre-drill, use regular deck screws sunk with a cordless and have never had a piece break. It is snug and doesn't need any face nailing.
our last two jobs were 500 pieces on Adverse Conditions & 400 pieces on RFH Ranch
all 6" exposure. all blind nailed with Maize 1 3/4" hot galvanized roofing nails, we mark every stud on our 15# felt and always TRY to nail into studs
face nails are always SS 8d siding nails with a fairly big head
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Why wouldn't galvanized nails last 50 years? They aren't exposed to weathering if blind nailed. I've pulled apart 100 year old face nailed siding with bright nails that are in fine condition. Oddly the British Hardie site suggests using screws to install. i don't recall seeing that recommendation on the US install guidelines. Your best bet is to use the manufacturers recommended installation instructions. Hardie recommends that you use a pneumatic nailer with HD smooth shank nails. There is a Hitachi gun and nails specifically made for it. Hitachi NV65AH is the gun. I'm sure you can rent one.
Buy it preprimed. #6 coiled SS ring shanks on 16" centers blind nailed w/ #30 splines at the joints. Tight butts w/o caulk. My walls are true so I have no waves. It may get hot where you are but it gets down right cold at my place.
EDIT, All ends were cut.
Edited 1/13/2008 9:42 pm ET by RobWes
What type of framing nailer do you have? 8 square isn't much, so the extra weight of a framer over a siding nailer or roofing nailer would not be that bad. The one thing you need to worry about with a framer is getting the nails flush and not over driving them. If you have an hitachi NR83 you could use this http://www.bigfootsaws.com/newsite/flush_drive.html
Either roofing nails or siding nails work fine, you definitely don't want to try and hand nail. If you need some face nails, pre drill and use stainless steel. Make sure you leave gaps at the trim and joints and use the right caulk. If you need some other tools for the exposure, do a google search, I think one is called solo sider, another few are made by malco.
The only problem you might have with a framing nailer is it may tend to overdrive the nails. To avoid crushing the Hardi, and weakening it to the point where it will crumble and come loose, Hardi specifies that nail head be driven only to the point of the underside being flush with the product. They should not be countersunk. I have a dedicated Max siding nailer that has really good depth adjustment. Even with that, depending on what the nail hits going in, I occasionally overdrive nails and often underdrive them, so they have to be finished off by hand.
If it was me (and it ain't), I'd use a roofing nailer before I used a framing nailer. (Roofing nails are approved by the mfgr.) The wider heads would have less tendency to crush the Hardi and provide more holding power as well. If you don't have one, buy one and re-sell it on E-bay when you're done. That'll probably be cheaper than renting one. (Only one problem -- every time I've tried to do that, I always end up keeping the tool. <G>)
I'd use HD nails. I spline my joints with flashing scrap. I concur with the advice that you should get pre-primed planks -- in fact, I'm not sure if my yard sells it any other way unless you special order. If you are concerned about wind-driven rain, consider installing a rain backer and be VERY meticulous with your flashing.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
One other thing that might be a problem with the framing nails is the shank size. A larger shank might blow holes in the siding or crack it. He could always get a used nailer on ebay then resell it after. I know even with 8 sq's, my shoulder would be on fire from using a framer.
"One other thing that might be a problem with the framing nails is the shank size."
I thought of that, but if his framer will shoot .113s, that's smaller than .120 roofing nails that Hardi approves. So it probably wouldn't be a problem.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
There's also the point to consider. Roofing nails tend to have sharper points than framing gun nails which are somewhat blunted (at least the Paslodes we use).
The Hitachi Hardie nails seem to have a point somewhere in between. For my money I'd go with the nails that are endorsed by James Hardie Inc. and say so on the box.
We have great success with a roofing nailer. We also have a dedicated siding nailer that works just as good but the nail head is too small for my tastes. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I am a true DIYer - a school principal by trade - and I just completed my first 2 sq. of Hardi plank. 5" reveal, pre-painted and I used 5/4' Hardi trim as well. My experience: The trim is pretty easy to work with though very heavy and flat surfaces are the only option for nice joints. The finish and consistency of the trim have been nothing short of perfect.
The siding has been more challenging. I have found the finish to be perfect but there have been many circular reverse dimples about the size of a poker chip. At first I thought I had left a few staples proud in the tyvek install but boards coming right of the stack had them too. I am nailing with my Paslode framer using 2-3/8" galvanized rink shanks. After some setting adjustments and installing the non-mar tip, the nailing has been perfect in terms of setting the nails. As others have posted, however, the bottom edge does not pull tight to the previous board in most cases. I have marked all studs and nail only to them. My plan, henceforth, is to pin boards only and try screws; but I believe it more a product characteristic than installation factor, since the nails really are setting perfectly. If I can work out this problem, I will be absolutely satisfied with the product because it looks sensational.
Thanks to all who have taken my questions befre; I just thought I'd add a true DIY perspective. (BTW - cutting outside with my circular saw and a respirator - kind of a pain but easy and fast to cut. 30 sq. to go!)
The bottoms of your siding is not pulling tightly because you are nailing too high. Also, a hardi panel will show a bigger gap if the reveal is changed to less than 7". Study the geometry of the panels to understand why both of my statements are important. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I have 6 1/4" planks with a 5" reveal, as spec'd by Hardie. Your comment about the reveal does make sense, given the angle created by a shorter reveal. It would seem to me Hardie would have thought of this when making a 6 1/4" plank. I've been real careful with the nail placement, not perfect I'm sure, but I definitely don't have the results I want yet. Thanks for your thoughts.
I don't see how a 5" reveal could ever be assembled and look tight on the bottom. It's a simple math problem. It can't be done. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I agree that the angle created prevents the two planks from laying flat to each other; but the point of contact of the two planks should still be tight and remain tight when nailed... right?
Yes. The point of contact is determined by the geometry of the products. Nailing as low as possible toward that point determines the tightness and holding power. In a blind nailing installation, 1/4" too high is a huge mistake. I suggest marking a nailing line as low as possible without creating shiners. This line will be slightly lower than Hardi recommends but will create a tighter panel. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
bs... once you find out what the lay angle is with the overlap, they will all lay at that same angle.. and it doesn't matter what reveal you use...
if i want to use a 4" reveal with a 6 1/4" plank... it's elementary
the plank will still lay just as tight on the overlap..... tighter in fact , because you can nail lower without showing your nail
ask me how i knowMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I agree, the gap that appears at the bottom will be uniform. It's that gap that I thought the poster was trying to close.I often change the reveals to accomplish certain aesthetic qualities of the installation myself Mike. I do so with the full understanding that the perceived gap will widen. In certain situations (under the main window of a bay for instance), if I decide that I need a 4" reveal, I rip all my hardi panels to 5 1/4" so my gap remains more closely uniform in relation to the other 7 : 8.25 ratios. Technically, it's still a little wider gap but it's not really noticeable and I still meet Hardi's formula for overlappen minimums.In a nutshell, I don't see anything wrong with hiding more than 1 1/4" under the lap, but the shadow line will certainly be changed from a a siding setup that has only 1 1/4" lapped and the bottom gaps will show differently if they are near one another. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
if they are all laid at the same reveal... ( 4" --------5"------6"---- doesn't make no matter )
then the bottom edge will clamp... the only adjustment is the thickness & placement of the starter strip so it will emulate the same exact angle the the 3d course has....
now just to illustrate: if you nail the first course flat against the sheathing, with no starter strip to kick the bottom, then the 2d course will he held proud with a huge gap, as you said
BUT, if you figure out what the angle of lay is going to be for the coursing you desire, and you start the first course at that angle.... then all the following courses will also lay and clamp
i also agree with you... in blind nailing , you have to absolutely be as low as you can with the nail and still not show, with 1 1/4" lap, we're nailing right at the 1" line , like you
sometimes , particularly at joints, we still don't get the clamp we want, then we face nail with SS siding nails
in all our applications, it would be hard to slip a putty knife under our laps.... occasionally , it ain't ..... but anything that looks like a flapper gets face nailed with an SS siding
so typically.. we nail off.. then as we're lowering our staging , we're adding some face nails, and caulking our butt joints as we goMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
here's a link to that job with 400 pieces
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=92880.284Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
if i'm trying to hit an architectural feature... like say the sill on the windows facing the street
we'll vary our coursing, with less exposure ( never more than the 1 1/4 minimum )
here's a layout i did for the RFH job
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Nice going! You save pictures of your mock ups to illustrate valid points for clients and BT'ers alike.
No golf today I bet.
Walter
Mike, at first glance, your picture seemed to refute my findings about how the gap at the bottom changes with the different reveals. Mathematically, I was sure that I was right especially because of my experiences out there in realworldland where I'd look up and see what appeared to be unsatisfactory nailing when in fact it turned out to be a product of our spacing. When I studied your pics closer, I believe your mockup shows the situation as I describe it. The two circled gaps seem to be signficantly (relatively speaking) different as compared to each other. The gap at the top with the square seems to be different too. The slight differences are caused by the changing laps and ratios of lap to reveal. In most cases, this cannot be discerned. When I do the math, I get the feeling that we are splitting hairs but out there in the real world a change in the dark gap jumps out at me in a significant way.I do think you are right when you say the gap will remain constant if the same reveal and buried overlap is constant. I don't think I was taking that into account when I made my post and I stand corrected. I learned something today, thanks. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
since that was the mock-up, the least i can do is go back and take some as-built and we'll see how the real world treats this
be a good excuse to go say hi to my customerMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Also Mike, I understand that your mockup wasn't nailed tight.Our most common "problem" occurred when our last piece was installed. Often, we did not have the luxury to make enough adjustments to adequately deal with the top piece. When that last piece was 6" on a ten course 7" exposure, the gap would tend to be slightly more open. It wouldn't be significant except that when you look up, every piece looks tighter giving the impression that the last piece was loose. Obviously, the pieces smaller than 6" would be worse. I always aimed for a 6" minimum piece but as you know, where various components are involved, nothing is ever as we want it. One fix was to shim the top piece as you mention about shimming the bottom piece. I think I've done it every way... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Regardless of how many threads have run on this stuff, I continue to pick up ideas to help me. I can't wait to get back out there this weekend to really check my starter strip to see how it is setting up subsequent courses to lay flat.
It is comforting to know others have had to face nail here and there too. Why can't I face nail with stainless finish nails, also into studs, instead of larger shank nails, if it is just to hold the bottom edge in tighter?
Your help is greatly appreciated.
<<<<Why can't I face nail with stainless finish nails, also into studs, instead of larger shank nails, if it is just to hold the bottom edge in tighter?>>>
finish nails have no head and will not set flush or have enough pull to clamp the plank
the shank is not important.. as long a it's a strong shank so you don't wind up with a lot of bendovers
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
They did, the 5" exposure works for the 6 1/4" plank , the 7 " exposure works for the 8 1/4" plank. What makes it work is that the relationships between the lower and upper board are the same. Whatever angle the siding is laid at on the wall to start with will (if continued) allow each subsequent board to lay tight to the one beneath it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I've got a Bostich 88 coil framing nailer that I added a depth-of-drive attachment to. It's a bit heavy to swing around all day, but it does a good job on Hardi. I've been using 2" HD galvanized ring shank nails for blind nailing.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I face nail with Bostitch 1-3/4" double galvanized roofing nails into the studs from a PC coil roofer. Set it a bit less than flush and finish with hammer if necessary.
I prefer the siding to sit on the fasteners rather than hang from them. I also prefer the bottom edge of the siding to be tight to the next lower piece (we have hoards of ladybugs come to visit every year and ANY opening is an open door for them). Then there is the ease of removal IF that ever comes into play.
I'm a freak, though, and face nailing disappears from my vision from two steps back after prime/paint/paint.
Liberty = Freedom from unjust or undue governmental control.
American Heritage Dictionary
You've just received a lot of response from professionals and the common thread is an awful lot of things can and do go wrong with this stuff, special handling, cutting, caulking, and nailing requirements, warrantee issues just to name a few. We were required to use it for trim and fascia a couple of years ago by an insistent architect. We learned a lot of things about it, #1, it isn't a quality product in our opinion.
But now I do have a couple of pair of shears we use on tile cement board with good results outta the deal.
I have the same opinion JRuss. I think Hardi is nothing more than an expensive relative to vinyl siding. It's overpriced, overhyped and overused and I laugh when people insinuate that it is a fine homebuilding, high quality installation. It doesn't look like a fine wood siding to me and I think it's more expensive when you factor in the materials and labor. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
well.. it's absolutely an upgrade from vinyl.... and i bet it still looks good in 50 years
we'll see how well it treats paint... all in all, i'd definitely use it over cedar claps on my own house
and i think i'd recommend it to my most fastidious customersMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well that's too bad you feel that way. We have used it in the past and are planning to use more on the same lot, different house. Too bad were talking 650' of open salt water views from Chatham MA. Factor in maintenance costs prior to laying out such a bold statement.
RobWes, I've also used it in the past on my own stuff. I still don't like it. I don't like working with it. I think it's over-hyped. I didn't like it on my own house. If I was going to install a fake siding, I'd prefer the cheaper LP stuff which has deeper grain patterns and less joints. Hardi might be the perfect product for salty coastal areas and I say congrats to you if you like the look! More power to you if its works for your budget and helps with the maintenance costs. I'm not sure why the maintenance costs differ from a solid wood product, but I'll take your word for that. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
jim... one reason i'm so sold on it is the maintenance
along about the '30's thru the '50's the vinyl siding guys of the day came thru New England... only they were selling and installing Asbestos Cement Siding
well... long story short.. you can't kill it.. or at least the weather can't kill it
baseballs, rocks & strong kids can.. but not the weather
paint loves it.. will last twice as long on ACS as on any wood
but... it has terrible looks.... very thin profile.. too much exposure in the coursing
modern Fiber Cement Siding overcomes all of the drawbacks but keeps all of the good points
so... i can walk down any street in New England and see how well the cement siding products will hold up in New England coastal weather
SOME wood products will also stand the test of time
but they will have to be repainted at about half the paint lifespan of Fiber Cement
i hadn't been in business too long after '75 to realize that some of the things i was installing were not going to last... i stopped using them
i can use Fiber Cement with confidence.. and there is no comparison in appearance between a good fiber cement job and the best vinyl siding job
as far as the cheapre LP stuff having a better wood grain... wood grain is sooooo overrated
see any wood grain on a true colonial ? no.. if there was wood grain showing , the builder would have had to rip it off and replace it... the Owner wouldn't accept it
where all this penchant for " wood grain" came from, i have no idea
also.. betcha anything.. paint ain't gonna stay on the LP products as long as it will on the Fiber Cement.... so there we are again.. maintenance
my house.... $7000 last time i had it painted... would have been a lot more if i had done it with my guys.. ( Atlantic white cedar claps, red cedar trim , Andersen vinyl clad windows )...... so in ten years figure two paint jobs = $14,000
vs one paint job for fiber cement = $7000, don't take too long before that fiber cement is all paid for
course i could paint it myself... but let's get realMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Nice sales presentation! I'm almost sold. If I was a paying customer, I'd ask: How does the paint know the difference of who it is stuck too? I had both types of siding on the Lake Huron home...kind of an experiment. I didn't see any noticeable difference in weathering patterns. It all faded uniformly. Fading is the most prominent maintenance issue, I think, on inland houses. Your coastal areas, with their salt air, certainly would pose a difference problem but I don't understand why the substrate makes a difference. I'm not saying it doesn't make a differnce, I just don't understand what that difference is. By the way, I was serious about the sales presentation. They love Hardi here in Austin and I might as well learn the talking points. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Nice sales presentation! I'm almost sold. If I was a paying customer, I'd ask: How does the paint know the difference of who it is stuck too?"With latex paint, the underlying wood swells and contracts with changes in humidity. Siding has it especially rough as the RH will vary from 100% in the rain to near zero on a hot sunny day. Eventually the swelling cycles cause the paint to crack and loosen.FC has much less swelling than wood, and that is why the paint lasts longer.
Umm....what is RM? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Umm....what is RM?"You mean RH? That's the abbreviation for relative humidity.
Thanks for the correction and the explanation. I lose concentration fast when were talking in code I don't know. Your explanation makes as good of sense as any. Thinking back, my paint specs claimed that it would last ten years but it all looked faded to me at year 5. I had three coats on it while new. I didn't get to the cracking phase yet if it was going to occur as the paint aged. Do the paint manufacturers offer an extended warranty on the hardi products based on this difference? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"Do the paint manufacturers offer an extended warranty on the hardi products based on this difference?"Not that I know of. Like earlier posts said, the cost of painting a typical house is ridiculous now, and it's certainly not going to get cheaper. Anything that reduces the frequency of painting is worth $$$.
Paint on Cedar if done right will last about 6 years, of course most paint jobs do not fail at the same time on all sides of the house so you don't always have to repaint the whole house each time you paint (as long as you paint with the same color. The sun baked side or the side with moisture behind the siding will peal first. If your paint job on cedar does not last 6 to 7 years the prep was not done right or you have a moisture problem.As for Cement board siding I like it and I have nailed with roofing nailer 1" down and I have face nailed using a siding nailer I perfer to use the roof nailer and use the pre-painted smooth surface it looks the most like cedar clap then the woodgrain stuff. If I had wood that looked like the textured stuff I would sand it before painting. I do not understand the appeal of the wood grained stuff.But to be honest I like cedar there is just something about wood. I have a 250 year old house and it still has claps in some areas that are original if maintained wood siding can last a long time. All the trim and windows are original all wood and only areas that were not cared for had any rot in 250 years thats time tested.Yes Cement board finish lasts but let's see if in 200 years if any of the siding itself is still good enough to just need a new coat of paint. Jury is still out on that one. I know if I use wood and it is maintained it can last a 100 years or more.But most people don't own a house long enough to pass it down to the next generation like in the past so most only care about will they have to paint not if the siding will last. That is why vinyl is so popular.
My info from Cabot lists an extended warrenty. I've posted it here in the past.Paint om WRC is not working and has not for some time. Even the wood is failing. Salt air/water is some nasty stuff. The only thing to date not effected is the solid unstained or painted mahogany decking. The finish nails are popping but as time goes on we replace them wit trim head SS screws and never go back. We lightly pressure wash every year now being CAREFUL not to raise any grain. It does go back to silver by years end but being a summer place mostly; Who cares?Most could not grasp what I spend in maintenance in a year. Not a know it all by any means but been to the school of hard knocks and still learning every day. I just apply what I learn and stick with what works.
Next Question: I plan to start hanging the planks tomorrow and would like input as to painting. My wife thinks it would be easier if we prime, then paint all of the board PRIOR to hanging it. Thoughts as to that? Any input from those that paint after install? Thanks again for all of the advice.Keith
I painted my Hardie very quickly by using a V-roller in the groove between the planks, going with the groove (horizontally), then using a regular medium-nap roller up-and-down. I tried lots of other ways, but this was the fastest, short of using an airless, plus i didn't have to mask and drape anything. The roller gets all but about a half-inch where the planks lap - a long-nap roller might have reached into even that crevice.Apropos fastening the planks, i used screws - http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=94810.5 - and did the job by myself - http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=78336.27 - in about four days; 1200sf, with five outside corners and one inside. Vinyl inside corner works perfectly for housing the ends of the Hardie, BTW, and although i was concerned about the vinyl holding paint, it's held up fine with the same primer and paint i used on the Hardi.
they come preprimed. on my bosses house we painted them, installed, then painted again. 6 years ago look just like i put them up.
If you already have the unprimed HP, then go ahead and prime before you hang. I would not paint the color beforehand because the caulk lines and spackled holes will have to be primed after hanging. The factory primed boards (given the choice, why buy anything else?) are only primed on the front face. Warranty requires use of 100% acrylic primers and paints.
This thread has been very informative as I'm about to put HP FC laps on my home. I have a related question. The March issue of FHB has a good article on FC tools. In reading the article it states that FC lap siding is available in thicknesses up to 5/8". I'm only familiar with HP and Certainteed and as far as I know, they only offer 5/16" laps. Any one know of thicker FC laps?
i've never seen it,but then i've never seen Hardie trim either
btw... we have a couple of the tools they show.. we have the Makita dedicated saw with the vacumn attach hood....
we also have two pair of the Malco shears... once we got the shears, we stopped using the saw
the more powerful the drill you hook the malco's up to, the faster they cut
we use the malcos for all our cuts, both rips & cutsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Can you mitre the FC trim with the shears? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
i've never used FC trim... we always use either Miratech or Azek
FC trim is too limited in size selection to appeal to me
with Azek & Miratech we can choose 5/4 or 4/4, & 4" thr 12" in widths... and 16" ( Miratech ) or 20' ( Azek)
another thing i found out about Azek... you can order it in 4' sheets ( 4x8, 4x12, 4x16 & 4x20 )
some of the big GC firms that have thier own millwork shops.... that's all they buy... 4x20... then they custom cut everything... no waste
i tried it with a 4x8... man we used evry scrap... i think i'll be buying a few more of the 4x8's Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike. I'm going to have to join the 21 century builders some day....I'm like one of those old farts that used to tell me that trusses were crazy and that they'd all fail! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Mike, how heavy is the stuff? I looked all over both sites and didn't see anything about weight. I laughed when I looked at http://www.miratectrim.com/pdf/MiraTEC_pneumatic.pdf and it shows how to use pnuumatics. It gives air pressure charts and the first line shows a setting at 70#s. Then, on the same line, it shows the recommnended pressure for that gun at a higher number! They obviously have never worked out in the field with the tools. Their advice is nonsense. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
with Miratech.... we always use SS nails ( FC lasts forever..... so should everything in conjunction with it )
Miratech ( & GP PrimeTrim ) are just exterior grade MDF... love paint , more decay resistant than redwood .... certain peculiarities in working with it
as for nailing... it's a painted product.. so we don't have to use concealed fasteners
and we use mostly 5/4 so it will be proud of the siding.. it takes a strong nail and a powerful gun to consistently drive thru Miratech
we wound up with an Hitachi coil nailer... NV 75 and we like it so much we use it for a lot of our framing too
MIratech is heavy and floppy.. but not as heavy and floppy as FCMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks. I checked the HP and CT web sites and as far as I can tell, they only offer 5/16" lap siding. The only complaint I have with FC is that the butt ends are a little skimpy compared to cedar. I'm using Kleer trim in both 4/4 and 5/4. Sure would like to know who makes the 1/2" and 5/8" lap FC mentioned in the article.
marty.... i didn't see the article.. but i don't think anyone makes 1/2 & 5/8 FC siding
i've used Ashland-Davis ( now Certainteed )... and Hardie... looked at CemTech
they all make similar products ( i like Certainteed best, but pricing usually favors Hardie )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The author of the article lives in Oregon, so maybe the stuff is only available on the west coast. I'm in Wisconsin and have never seen it here. I will check out the ChemTec site. What do you like about Certainteed over HP?
the CT product is a little stronger due to the press proces they use... and a little more subtle in the wood grain, and not quite so much repitition in the repeat of the wood grain pattern
but... the last two jobs we used the Hardie factory finish ( Paint ) and it's a really nice product
i haven't gotten to use the CT factory finish because of quoted cost.. i think a lot of the price quotes ahve more to do with distribution in your area
i would use either of the two depending on priceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks
Mike,
I think CertainTeed uses flyash now for a "greener" product. I haven't researched it, but one sider told me they don't have any silica in the product so the dust is less hazardous also.
Tim
Mike,I've followed your very well detailed step by step job posts, and I've learned a lot from them. I own a Bostitch N46 roofing nailer. You've stated that you guys have trouble sinking 1 3/4" roofers with this gun. I have a small gable end(about 2 sq) to replace with pre-primed hardi siding with a 7" exposure. Location is in Lexington, MA. I'm not interested in buying another gun. Can I drive 1 3/4" galv roofers with this gun? Thanks for your time, and GO PATS!!
Thanks to all for the advice and help. I started hanging the HP this weekend and got about 15-20 planks up. My initial query was the efficacy of using my framing gun. It worked VERY well. I used 2 3/8 HD full head nails and cranked it down to barely touch the plank. No blowouts and no cracking. The shears that were loaned to me worked very well. I think that they cut as nice of a line as either of my circular saws. I recommend these as well. FWIW, the shears that I used were porter cable. The Malco (spelling??) plank hangers make life easy for a solo worker. The only help I needed from my wife was for the first course. From then on, it was solo. Again, thanks for all of the help. Keith
Just a tip, if you're using the hangers: before you get too far, put story marks on each end (and in the middle, if the span is long) to keep the hangers "honest". You can accumulate some pretty significant error by the time you reach the top if you rely on the hangers alone.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Agreed. I find that I am getting about 1/16 "extra" with the clips. I created a story pole before I started and have used it every 2 courses to keep on track.
If the clips create a uniform error of 1/16", wouldn't it be okay just to run with it? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"If the clips create a uniform error of 1/16", wouldn't it be okay just to run with it?"
Not if it's only on one side! I found that my Malco clips were just a bit off. I had to swap them end for end on alternate courses, and rely on a story board to keep things on track. They help for single-handed installs, but they ain't the most accurate things on the planet.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I did a quick search to see what your malco tool looks like. I've never had to use a tool like that because we typically install the siding while the wall is flat and I normally just layout every course with my tape. I've made story poles too but the tape is normally fastest.Anyways, I did have a worker tell me about making their siding hangers out of the heavy lumber banding iron. After looking at the malco tool, I think I'd prefer to bend my own out of the banding iron if I was installing siding horizontally.The fundamental reason that those types of tools don't work perfectly is because the siding materials aren't uniform. The use of the story pole irons out the differnces as you already know. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
jim here's that section i did from this mock-up
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hope these give a good idea of what we're winding up with on the finished product
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these are all of the area between the two front windows
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/21/2008 11:32 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 1/21/2008 11:33 am ET by MikeSmith
and some other views, same area..
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these are all caulked joints with the matching caulk.. the trim is Miratech , primed & two coats finish
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/21/2008 11:36 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 1/21/2008 11:36 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 1/21/2008 11:37 am ET by MikeSmith
Edited 1/21/2008 11:37 am ET by MikeSmith
A preacher is used to mark the end of the board for cutting.
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You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Edited 1/21/2008 12:30 pm by Marv
Thank you for clarifying what I said.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Edited 1/21/2008 2:49 pm ET by Sphere
Mike, I know you don't agree and you think I'm nuts, but I wouldn't accept that caulk bead because it's too small. I want to see a nice big fat tooled caulk connection. I know you'll never agree and I think you know by now I'm not going to change my mind too! I also know that if a caulking contractor did that, he'd be back re caulking for the builders we worked for. Of course, I would defer my preferences to the manufacturer if they would warrant it like that for fifty or sixty years. I think the quote we just got for some stucco caulking was 60 year warranty. The bead is 1/2" though....I think. I might be mixing up EIFS requirements. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
A hunk o' 'J' channel there next to that window trim would negate the need for caulk..(G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I didn't like the hangers for much more than just being a free helper to hold the ends.
What I did was make a gage block outta scrap , 6'' in my case, and marked the corner and then went along tacking up with the block held, feeling for flush with the last course.
Then the hanger was free to be moved before ya nail it in permanantly..(G)
Back in the old days I think they called them "Preachers" and used them to mark the woven corners of wood claps, or where they met the OS corners applied. Same Idea, just I also use it for the reveal.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
"I didn't like the hangers for much more than just being a free helper to hold the ends."
LOL. That's why I sent 'em to YOU! ;-)
Actually, I like the metal one (as opposed to the red plastic one) for just that -- holding the far end up while I nail off my side. I rely on the witness marks -- not the guage -- to set the piece.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
yes........ you may have to finish some of them with your hammer.. but the N46 is a nice gun... i would use it for your jobMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks for the response Mike. There is one more question I have for you.
I also have a bostitch coil siding nailer, which I aleady have SS 8d's for. With the large 7" exposure that I have, am I really getting a better hold with just the 1 3/4" roofer opposed to the 2 1/2" ring shank? My understanding the roofers are favored because of their larger head diameter. Just wondering what your thoughts were. Thanks again.Brian
7" is a big exposure.... if you don't get the clamping action from your blind nail that you want, you MAY have to switch to face nailing...
try a section and see if you like it.... you can ALWAYS go back & face nail with SS
i'll post some pics to Jim Allen of that section i did the kock-up onMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've been using hardie for about 12 years and have always face nailed and used unpainted. I use ss nails with heads, predrill joints. I butt tight at joints. Recently started using the Certainteed pre made pvc corners. This is a very clean look when caulked up and painted. I've painted a few of the jobs and cut the last coat to show the profile at the window and corner trim. I would really like to find a ss nail with a rounded head (like an upholstery tack) for a historic look. I prefer the woodgrains,
Thanks. I'm going to be using the individual metal outside corners. They give a clean look over the corner boards on some homes and on others, they look out of place. Any experience with them?
Wouldn't those things look like aluminum siding corner pieces.
I saw them used on a house recently and they looked good. They fit nice and tight, but I see your point. It's definitely a personal preference and depends on the style of the house they will be used on. My house is 17 years old and has corner boards now, so I'm looking for a fresh look. Maybe in another 17 years I will go back to corner boards....
""If I was a paying customer, I'd ask: How does the paint know the difference of who it is stuck too?"" It doesn't . The paint will stick to whomever it happens to get on, Customer, painter , nearby carpenter, plumber or electrician and cannot tell the difference between them. What does matter to the longevity of the paint job is the ability of paint to bond to the surface it is being applied to . Cement board siding is among the best surfaces for paint holding ability available in todays market place. Don't want to believe me, talk to any good professional residential or commercial painter. If paint chalks or fades on Cement board siding it will fade on any other surface exposed to the same conditions.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Hardi also has a wood grain product. It is mild and breaks up the surface just enough IMO. I used it on my own home. On the water the smooth product was prefered by my boss AKA the owner. I was having the painter work that clapboard every year with proper prep. Tried all sorts of methods. Paint just does not stick to WRC. This face was not facing the water BTW. You can put your nose right on the board and not tell that it's FC.
Rob, I think I'm going to call you the Acronym King. What is WRC? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Western Red Cedar.You know the old motto of the painter is that it's all in the prep. Meaning, the most important part of a quality long lasting paint job is the surface you put it on. I can't think of may homes in northern climates that are repainted for fading. Mostly it's due to flaking. But I can see that as an issue in the desert.
WRC - western red cedar
I think ....
Oops, redeyedfly beat me to it.
Edited 1/15/2008 10:25 am ET by wivell
I just finished putting up 8 square about a month ago down in Virginia. I used a Kett shear to cut the material and found it worked very well with no dust. Check the price on the pre-painted Hardi. When I bought last summer the pre-primed was 108. per square. The pre-painted was $158. per square. You can hardly buy the paint for that price difference. I might add the factory finish was beautiful and each piece was covered with plastic to protect the finish. I would hate to have to paint all that siding myself after it was installed. Handling was no problem and I didn't mark even one board. Along with the siding I ordered the factory caulk which was matched to the color. It was a perfect match as it is mixed with the same batch of paint at the time of painting. I also found the caulk to be very different from the usual paintable caulk. It dried very rubbery and cleanup was with paint thinner rather than water. The 1/8" gap at the ends or between boards is for expansion. The caulk filled it very nicely. I kept a thinner soaked rag with me to wipe it smooth.
I nailed with a Bostitch siding nailer using 1 3/4" bostitch galvanized nail with a .080 thickiness. No predrilling and no blowouts. I did find that around windows and doors I had to shoot the bottom of the plank in some cases(only at the ends). I put this nail close enough to the edge that I was able to cover it with the caulk.
A roofing nailer would work well because the nails have such a thin head, but be careful of the placement so the heads don't show. You have 1 1/4" of nailing surface. I also wouldn't use the roofing nails around the doors and windows as the head would definitely be obvious.
Roofing nails are also much thicker than the .080 nails I used.
Along with the painted siding and matching caulk I ordered they sent me a touchup paint kit(no charge) which I didn't use at all.
All in all, I was very happy with the siding. Incidently, I used #15 felt paper under it.
Who else besides me would want to see fiber cement siding with a lip similiar to stepped hardboard siding. Seems it would make installs easier. Level the first course and the rest just sit on top of the previous course.
not me.. i want to adjust my coursesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Who else besides me would want to see fiber cement siding with a lip similiar to stepped hardboard siding."That would be OK if walls were flat and it never rained. HP doesn't have the flexibility of hardboard so the groove on the back side might be tough to line up if the wall isn't flat. Our old house had that wonderful LP hardboard siding and after ten years all those cute, rounded profiles on the face started to fall apart because they stayed damp longer after a rain or snow. IMO anything that holds water or snow on the face of siding is a bad idea.