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Discussion Forum

Hardie Panel shear strength ???

MrBill | Posted in Construction Techniques on June 3, 2005 04:22am

Need some opinions please. I have a 24′ x 24′ detached garage that is presently sided with T111 panels. The T111 on the two sides (not gable ends) has deteriorated along the bottom due to insufficient overhang of the roof. I am getting ready to remedy the overhang problem and replace the T111 on the two sides. Front and back of the garage are fine. I was seriously thinking of using the James Hardie “Hardie Panel” 4×8 siding. It looks pretty much the same as the T111 but comes preprimed and should be much more durable.  By the time you figure in the price of primer and the time spent to prime the T-111, the Hardie Panels actually are cheaper.

 My big question is … even though the James Hardie web site states that the panels are acceptable as shear walls, I am a bit hesitant due to the thickness (or lack of ) of the Hardie Panels compared to the T111 ( 3/4″)  Has anyone done a building with the Hardie Panels  alone ?  Am I being  overcautious ?  My plan is to paint the Hardie Panels inside and let them dry, then replace the T111. I can put some temporary 2×4 braces on the insided of the walls to keep them from racking while I am doing the replacement.

 Any thoughts, experiences, or ideas are appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Bill Koustenis

Advanced Automotive Machine

Waldorf Md

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  1. FastEddie1 | Jun 03, 2005 04:55am | #1

    Maybe put some ply on the inside face of the walls?  One sheet on each side of the corners maybe.

     

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

  2. suntoad | Jun 03, 2005 05:03am | #2

    Bill:

    I've had the same question for some time. I actually have a similar situation as you and wanted to use the panels on my shop--and for the same reasons (namely, they're cheaper than ply t-111, they will not rot, and they're pre-primed!) Cripes, why isn't everyone using Hardi-panels instead of t-111??

    Hardi actually seems quite ambiguous as to whether or not their panels can be used as (structural) shear panels. Though they imply it is acceptable, I've not seen anything on their website or otherwise that states they will back up their product in it's use as shear panels. That being said, I live in Florida and the Florida Building Code (strict as it is in wind-load/ shear requirementsis) is likewise silent on the use of Hardi (type) panels in satisfying the requirements for shear. I've simply gotten no straight answers from anybody.

    But here's my real-world experience: I've actually re-sided a commercial building w/ Hardi-panels alone (no sheathing beneath; no diagonal bracing or strapping at all--just studs, felt, Hardi). It was permitted and the inspector signed off on it. Details: Nailing schedule (used as sheathing) is 4" o.c. on perimeter/12" field. This requires nailing the sh*t out of these thin, 1/4" panels. Nails must be set exactly flush with the surface. Acheiving this w/ that many nails is nigh impossible unless you were hand-nailing (don't even think of it). Believe me. Even w/ the best siding nailer, probably 1 in 5 nails on the perimeter will be deep and/or chunks tend to break out at the edges. As you might expect, this looks like poop. ALso, HArdi panels, unlike traditional t-111, are NOT ship-lapped. Seams are butted and must have a gap. Again, poop city. Gaps must be caulked, of course, but no caulk will never last on these butts, in my opinion, and it's by nature a weak joint.

    Finally, as for shear stregnth, I can rip a Hardi panel w/ my bare hands. Even if you never have a storm or an earthquake or otherwise any need for the shear stregnth of your exterior walls, somewhere, sometime, someone's gonna throw a baseball at your garage and it's gonna punch a nice hole in your nice Hardi siding. Not to mention the fact that anyone with any intent on breaking into your place will only need a swift kick to the wall to create a nice doorway for him.

    But, hey, I wish I could use it too. It just seemed to good to be true. And it was... IS it legal/acceptable to use it as structural sheathing? Apparently so. Is it sensical? IMHO, no.

    BTW, I'd had this discussion earlier on this board with no useful response from anyone. Maybe someone else has some new insight now. Good luck.

    1. MrBill | Jun 03, 2005 05:14am | #3

      Toad,

       Here is a quote from thier web site

       "Because of its structural strength, Hardipanel may be used as a shear panel siding." 

      I didn't look real close at it, I guess I will go buy one sheet this weekend and do some "destructive" testing. If its as easy to bust through as you are saying, I am not sure it is what I want.

      Ed,

       I did think of that, I was thinking about insulating and finishing the interior anyway. Another method would be to "let in" a couple of 2x4 diagonals like Hardie shows for thier lap siding.

      Intersting to see what other responses we get.Bill Koustenis

      Advanced Automotive Machine

      Waldorf Md

      1. suntoad | Jun 03, 2005 05:32am | #4

        Hey Bill, I read that quote from Hardi's website too. I just don't believe it. I want them to guarantee it. I want to see an engineer spec it as structural siding.. Hell I WANT it to be true. Someone make me a believer and show me that my experience with the stuff was all wrong! Please. I have a shop to side, for crying out loud.

        1. MrBill | Jun 03, 2005 05:44am | #5

          Toad,

           This might be our answer:

          http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/noa02-0729-02.pdf

          It looks like Miami Dade county approved it BUT .... if I am reading this correctly it has to be installed over 5/8" sheathing !  Sort of defeats the whole purpose. I am not in Florida and probably dont have much severe weather other than the usual Summer T-storms, but it looks like I am probably going back with T-111. This time I will do it correctly, unlike when I originally built the garage 20 years ago. I am going to prime and paint both sides of all the new siding before hanging it. Hopefully with a larger roof overhang, it will outlast me. Bill Koustenis

          Advanced Automotive Machine

          Waldorf Md

          1. blue_eyed_devil | Jun 04, 2005 04:18pm | #9

            Why don't you just put the hardie over the existing t1 11?

            blue 

          2. suntoad | Jun 04, 2005 07:03pm | #10

            Hmm. Good idea. Plus, having done it, removing all the t-111 from a building really, really sucks. Especially if it was nailed off properly.Blue, you ever used Hardie panel alone as siding? Have you seen it done? Your thoughts on this idea?

          3. JasonPharez | Jun 04, 2005 07:38pm | #11

            Toad I have a shed w/ t111 that I've been considering replacing with Hardipanel, and after considering how long it would take to remove the ply, I've just decided to remove the cornerboards, trim, etc. maybe spray the old ply with Kilz just to keep further rot at bay, housewrap, and then go over the ply & wrap with the Hardi. It makes for one tough wall!Jason Pharez Construction

               Framing & Exterior Remodeling

          4. FastEddie1 | Jun 04, 2005 09:02pm | #12

            Putting hardie over the T1-11 will work, but you don't want to sheath over rotted ply.  Maybe rip off the bottom foot or so and replace with new, the hang the hardie.

             I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

          5. MrBill | Jun 04, 2005 10:47pm | #13

            Blue,

             I did think about that method, but I would have to rip off the bottom couple of feet and repair that first, its pretty "ugly". I would almost rather go ahead and replace the T111 completely. I figure I can take my time and prime and paint it all inside the garage, then it should only take me a couple of hours on each side to replace 6 sheets.

             If I do decide to use the Hardie over the T111 do you think I should put 30lb felt on the T111 before the Hardie ? I have not had a drop of water come through the T111, but the Hardie panels are not ship lapped at the edges and have to be caulked. Guess it should be pretty waterproof if done properly.

            Bill Koustenis

            Advanced Automotive Machine

            Waldorf Md

            Edited 6/4/2005 7:42 pm ET by MrBill

          6. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jun 05, 2005 01:13am | #15

            In my case I don't have any rotten T-111, but some amount of delamination and puckering. But not enough that I think that it needs replacing (but it might by the time I get around to adding the FC sheets.But my thinking is to use felt behind it. Or at least a vertical strip behind each joinst and on each cornere.

          7. User avater
            xxPaulCPxx | Jun 05, 2005 03:58am | #16

            The panel calls for a water barrier.  I'd think that concrete would hold some moisture to the surface of the wood.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

            Also a CRX fanatic!

          8. BillBrennen | Jun 05, 2005 05:22am | #17

            MrBill,I cast another vote for using the 30# felt over all the T-111, integrated with the new flashings, etc. The Hardi edges hold caulk better if first primed with a latex primer. You could also do a rainscreen detail over the felt, by using additional strips of felt over the studs to break the capillary action behind the Hardi. Of course, the caulking at the horizontal panel joints mustn't close off the gap behind the Hardi, rainscreen or not.Bill

          9. tyke | Jun 05, 2005 05:41am | #18

            thats what i wa thinking. orrrrrrr maybe glueing and nailing.tyke

            Just another day in paradise

    2. User avater
      BillHartmann | Jun 03, 2005 05:56am | #6

      " likewise silent on the use of Hardi (type) panels in satisfying the requirements for shear. "And what does that tell you?I hve no idea how your codes are written, but typically they will say you can use A under so and so conditions, or B under another set of condtions or C under a 3rd set of conditions.And it will also have several alternate ways of using a material.You supply testing and engineering to prove that the results provide equivalent performance or you have engineering test from the manufacture that show it is approved for that application.If it ain't listed, if you don't want to do the testing and engineering, and if you don't have approved engineering report from the manufacture you can't use it.They don't list all of the products that you can't use.

  3. User avater
    xxPaulCPxx | Jun 03, 2005 09:37am | #7

    http://www.jameshardie.com/pdf/ner-405.pdf

    Look on page 29 and 30 of this document.  They give actual ratings for different nailing patterns and nails.  I think this where then "talk"!

    Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

    Also a CRX fanatic!

  4. Notchman | Jun 03, 2005 12:28pm | #8

    Shear panels spec'd in an engineered structure are normally developed through load calculations that accompany the plan set.

    In the home I'm just completing, built in H-5 seismic zone on a coastal headland with 120 mph wind loading, nearly every wall, interior and exterior is sheared both sides with 1/2" or 5/8" plywood (lots of fun with door and window jams!), not to mention numerous Simpson straps, drag struts and hold downs.  Nail patterns on the shear walls vary from 6" spacing down to 2" spacing....8d and 10d nails.

    My point being that shear walls, when required, are not an intuitive feature to be satisfied with just any panel product, so if F/C panels have a shear value, it will be a quantifiable value based on panel strength and nailing pattern.

    If the object is to prevent a building, like your garage, from racking or twisting under normal conditions where engineering is not required, sheathing the corners with plywood or OSB and furring out the studs to the same plane for the F/C will suffice....or even diagonal bracing if you're content with single wall construction.

  5. cic317 | Jun 04, 2005 11:08pm | #14

    Save yourself a major headache, cut out the rotted lower section of t-111, replace w/ regular CDX plywood of the same size- 5/8 0r 3/8, install , install new drip caps over windows & doors, new tar paper or house wrap & use the hardiplank. WE have done similar jobs here in New York, with no problems, It's a nice product. Good Luck

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