I’m installing 6.25″ Hardie on a gable wall above an addition roof. Hardie recommends leaving a 1-2″ space between the shingles and the Hardie. I’ve been using a 2×4 laying flat on the shingles as a guide to give a 1-1/2″ space above the shingles.
I don’t like the appearance of the exposed step flashing and the cutoff Hardie. It just looks “unfinished”. Any suggestions of some method to trim the Hardie to give a more finished appearance? I thought about installing some type of vinyl or steel j-channel but the Hardie ends needed to be painted before this could be installed. Any ideals?
Thanks-
Replies
Do visitors normally climb onto your roof? Just paint the flashing. From the ground no one will be able to see it anyway.
Beware of any edging that will retain water -- that's what you're trying to prevent.
Pre-finished brown step flashing hides all sins. A little late here I guess.
I have seen a trim board similar to your under-eave board installed here. You may need to apply an additional flashing higher, but i believe this would solve your problem. IIRC, your frieze trim is 1x6? If so, a 1x4 same color would work nicely.
Personally, I don't like the looks of "unfinished" siding ends. Nice look to have a termination point along the roof.
Edited to add: Nice to see you using a water kick-out to the gutters. It's amazing how many folks don't do this. I cringe when I see it either not there or improperly there.
Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
Edited 1/1/2008 10:12 pm by Hooker
If Hardie allows 1", why didn't you just leave 1" if you don't like the space?
Paint the flashings the same color as the wall or shingles and it helps.
Since you already started with the wider gap, your next solution would be to add a trim board (1x4 or 1x6) and keep it 1/2" above the shingles.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Being as the siding is installed tho' I'd be thinking of rabbeting the back of a 1x4 to lap OVER the siding, but that would also mean some drain channels would need to be cross routed on the back face.
Next option is cut the siding up higher to allow a full 1x4 so as to not be nailing the trim into the steps.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I normally just install the 1x over the entire siding and flashing assembly and don't do any caulking. The water runs behind the trim piece and drops out the bottom.We have done this for numerous builders without callback. We've also cut back and installed flashings but I wouldn't do that for my own stuff. It looks like a leak situation to me. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Sounds clean and easy, I do have a tendency to over complicate things.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Guys, thanks for for all the suggestions. I should have asked the question before I started the installation but had nine planks on before I realized I didn't like the appearance. I've considered pulling those nine boards off and starting over with the 1/2'" gap as suggested. I also like the colored coil ideal. At this point I think I'll go with Jim's suggestion of installing a 1x4 trim board over the siding after a couple coats of paint over the cut ends. That seems like a pretty simple solution that will reduce the gap and cover up the unfinished plank ends. Again thanks for all the good ideals!
Mark this date down in history! Someone took a suggestion from me! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,Are you packing out the gable end so that the corner boards go underneath the rake trim, or do you nail the rake trim right on top of the siding also, and the corner board and rake trim are flush and the same thickness?Joe Carola
Heres a typical installation for me. The siding is tucked under the gable frieze. The corner boards are overlaid on the wall siding.The siding is butted to the window brick mold. The siding terminates at the bottom against a beveled water table molding as described in an earlier thread: 1x3 beveled at 15 degrees. There is a metal drip flashing installed under the siding and over the brick but I hate the look of it and covered it with the 1x3 and caulked everything closed. If water is getting behind that siding, it is draining out at the weep holes in the brick.There is also a wood beveled drip edge over the garage 1x surround. I didn't wrap the windows because I don't like the look. I wrapped the garage doors because I wanted that look.There is no metal covering the dentils on the belt going across the porch. I used the beveled drip edge and caulking. The homeowner is required to maintain all caulk and paint and if he does this annually, as required, the wood will last forever. If he fails and it rots, someone gets a nice remodeling job in thirty years.The corner boards terminate at the beveled wood water table. You guys may not like the look of the frieze and corner boards standing a full 7/8" proud of the siding, but that is my preference and I like it because it appeals to my eye. I may not be correct about the royal proportion or whatever you want to call it, but I built that house to appeal to me, not you's. The corner boards on that one are caulked and when done properly, you would have no way of knowing if that corner board is layed over the siding or if the board is a full 1 3/4" thick and the siding is butted up to it. It does take some skill to caulk it correctly, but that skill is learned in ten minutes, not ten years. I think most caulk companies require backing rod to allow the caulk to perform properly and if done properly, the caulk joints will stretch properly and protect the house. I think it's important to read the caulk specs and make sure that the MINIMUM bead size is delivered, which DOES occur using this installation method. All you 5/4 enthusiasts seem to think that your 5/4 is the cat's meow, but to my eye, it's too thin. If I was forced to use it, I'd probably pack out the 5/4 with 3/8 ply to mimic the look that I prefer. Once the proper caulking is done, you would not be able to tell which installation is which. The problem with that idea is that there is more chance of water intrusion compared to my installation method. I see the "board over" installation as a win/win with no negatives. I was not particularly pleased with the bottom board installed under those windows and never quite figured out what I wanted to do with them. I know I didn't want siding under them and I didn't want wood surrounds that would clash with the corners. It's hard to see, but the corner boards travel up tight to the soffit. They go over the frieze and stand proud of the first layer of 1x12 frieze by the full 7/8". I also prefer that look, even without the dentils and stacked frieze. Thankfully, we live in America...the land of free choice. Put that baby on wheels and call it a trailer if you wish. By the way, that house was built on a very, very tight budget. Sometimes we gotta do, what we gotta do. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I like the looks of that house.
Lately when we put up shadow fascia (what its been called here) tucked under the gable overhan, we've been using the router to make a rabbit and slip the siding underneath like in this picture http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler/Lot46Gleneagle/photo#5098704825540272450
Thanks Tim.I like the proportions of the siding and frieze that you are showing me too. The shingles have a little less profile and therefore the corner boards and frieze treatment work well if they are slightly less fatter. Like I said, for me, it's a personal choice about what I like to see. I despise the flush looks on a lot of the trims I see and have always leaned toward creating more depth and lines on my cornice treatments. I don't always have the luxury of doing what I want, but when I do, I tend to create deeper shadow lines. I don't make any claims on being Picasso though. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I think it's important to read the caulk specs and make sure that the MINIMUM bead size is delivered, which DOES occur using this installation method.
I talked to a contractor from Iowa last week who posts over at JLC on the phone and he sent me a ton of info on sealant and described how different manufacturers have different minimum bead sizes. I had never heard that.
I wonder how many in this thread without looking it up could quote the minimum bead size for their favorite brand of sealant.
I couldn't. But hopefully I can after I read all that info he sent me.
Sonny was the master at caulk and he sent me a very detailed document about them and the various products and uses. He used that document in his sales presentations to Condo groups who were very keen on maintenance costs and practices. Their decisions weren't about saving $5 on a case of caulk but rather savings MILLIONS in damage due to faulty work. Caulking is your friend if you embrace it rather than resisting it. I know a lot of folks in here like to ridicule those that rely on it and that is understandable, when taken in context that some carpenters can't fit a joint tightly. The reality is though, that some joints in exterior finish ARE WRONG if fit tightly. The tendency for most carpenters is to take pride in creating nice, tight joints and they look at a 3/16" gap and think "hack". The 3/16" gap is huge when matched agaist a tight joint...but the reality is that the wider gap is the correct one! Caulk on! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I used copper flashing bent on a brake. Looks great.
I leave about 3/4" to 1" gap where the siding meets the roof, same as your situation. I think the requirement hardie makes is not pretty and over kill. There are others in this are that use about 1/2" gap and they have never had a problem. Those houses are about 12 years old right now and the paint look perfect. Also those house have many situations like that, multiple dormers, and other side walls.
The main thing you need to make sure of is that you get a good two coats of paint on that cut edge so nothing is exposed. I know that the siding in those areas will have no warranty but lets be honest, hardie (like every other company) will try to find some way to void the warranty. Plus the warranty only covers the cost of the material which is peanuts.
A lot depends on whether you're in snow country, or whether there are trees that may leave leaves up in that corner. Either condition demands a larger gap.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I'm in MA and there's about 12" on the ground right now. I can't wait till spring. But anyway, the snow is never a problem near the step flashing, the snow near that is always next to nothing. If there are leaves, then get a chainsaw and get those things away from the house.
Jabram,
If you keep doing it like that, why don't you by coil the same color as the siding and nail a counter flashing on top of your step flashing so that you cover the step flashing and the coil is the same color as the siding?
i think hardie is out to lunch with their 2" requirement
we lay a piece of 3/4 " on the shingles as our guide
and we use pre-painted coil stock... usually black.. sometimes brown
if you paint the mill finish you have installed, it will improve the appearance... but i do think the 2" is excessive
"i think hardie is out to lunch with their 2" requirement we lay a piece of 3/4 " on the shingles as our guide and we use pre-painted coil stock... usually black.. sometimes brown if you paint the mill finish you have installed, it will improve the appearance... but i do think the 2" is excessive"I mentioned this in an earlier post. That 2" gap is just ridiculous and doing it your way, I've never seen a problem if you paint the cut ends to prevent wicking. You live in RI and me in MA, so we both have the snow, ice, etc. and if I remember right, your near the coast, so you also have the blowing rain and sea air. I think hardies requirement is just over the top, probably something from the lawyers or engineers that never get out into the real world.
"I think hardies requirement is just over the top, probably something from the lawyers or engineers that never get out into the real world."Never? One of our building inspectors back in MI found out that there was a 2" requirement. Guess what we had to do....yep....keep the siding up 2"!Now you know where we came up with the idea to hide it all with a 1x trim board. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Someone makes a trim piece specifically for this. I haven't used it yet, but I looked at it at my siding supplier. It was basically a 1x2 looking piece of composite/plastic with a nailing flange doubling as a dip edge that ran over your step flashing. The photos looked good and it seemed well made. You paint it to match.
I can't find the lit for a name. Call your siding supplier. I'm sure they'll know the product.
We put an Azek or Cedar 1x4 on as trim first, put a drip cap on that goes behind the wrap.
Then install our siding. Looks very nice. Like it's supposed to be there.
Going over the siding will create issues at corners or where the roofline stops. You'd be able to look behind the trim piece. Or the 1x would stick out past the corner.
Woods favorite carpenter
Edited 1/4/2008 5:23 am ET by MattSwanger
We put our corners on over the siding to avoid those problems. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Oh god I hate that detail.
I agree. looks like poo IMO. And what about around windows and doors? Back to butting and caulking or carry the same look?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I don't like the look of boards around windows and avoid them as much as I can. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I don't get to 'avoid' a lot, I do whats asked or match existing.
You have one of the perks of new work, mine is almost all restoration or repair.
I can offer variances, but in most cases, I work with whats desired. In the case of MY house, the log part, the "boards" around the windows are necessary to conceal the bucks holding the windows and log ends in marriage.
But thats a nother can o' worms..(G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Of course, when we are in a remodeling situation, we do as the Romans. It's one of the reasons why I prefer new. I don't like duplicating processes and techniques that I don't agree with, which often is the case in remodeling. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
I posted this question and posted a link to this thread over at JLC and apparently this is done elsewhere. Sorry, but on new work, I would never do it if it were my choice. Still curios what you do on the top piece of trim.
This is what I asked over at JLC:
Do they put a return piece behind the top of the trim and then flash/drip cap on top of that with new siding? Going over existing siding, they would have to cut out the existing siding and put the return piece on and then slide the flash/drip cap up?Joe Carola
I love that detail. We've also ran the corners over the belts which is also my preference. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I don't know that I've ever seen trim NOT be 5/4. Corners over siding and no trim around windows?
Sounds like you build some real nice homes Jim. Do they come on wheels?
Sorry we don't meet your 5/4 standards. I prefer the look of the heavier protruded corner boards myself. I also prefer the cleaner look of the siding butting up to the window brick molds. You probably are using a cheaper window with no brickmolds and you need the beef of the corner boards. All corner boards, window surrounds, belts, water tables and other assorted cornice trimwork is subject to personal taste. I'll not insult your tastes, but If I bought one of your houses, I'd probably have to tear off the window surrounds to suit my tastes. If you want to call this trailer trash, go ahead. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
I understand the water being able to drip behind the trim board but what about needles, leaves etc. getting caught in the open top that is created using your method. I just can't wrap my mind around having a trap like that and not having problems . Might be regional , here I would have mold and moss growing out of that seam in 1 winters time. But then I don't mind the look of the siding or a trim board being 2" off the roof deck either. At least that way I don't worry about #### being caught up and holding water against the siding.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
We don't do a lot of windows that don't butt up to a soffit and overhang. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim,
Sorry I wasn't clear in my question. I was thinking and asking about the trim board at the bottom of the siding that you install to cover the step flashing. But now that you mention it , what about windows in the gable ends of houses? No frieze or soffit to butt to there.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Windows get drip flashing on gables. The siding butts to the window brick molds. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I go to thinking about the outrage over the caulking issue and then wondered if anyone in here has every actually caulked anything according to manurfacturer's specifications. Then I wondered if anyone s ever read them. Then I wondered if anyone has ever used a professional caulker. Then I wondered if anyone has ever owned or used a professional caulking gun with the interchageable tips. Then I wondered if anyone has ever bought caulking in bulk in five gallon cans.I can answer yes to all of the above. Then I thought about it a bit more and came to the conclusion that most don't work in cold climates, with brick veneer meeting wood and the issues created by the major expansion/contraction issues. It's entirely possible that your conditions don't mirror those in MI but I wonder now, thinking back to all the mold lawsuits.Anyways, heres the information from OSI who puts out a very good product that can withstand the extreme conditions. It's product looks very good when done properly and performs well. Care should be taken though, to put a heavy enough bead on. A small bead may appeal to your particular aesthetical senses, but will not stretch enough to properly maintain the critical barrier between the various materials. Note that the minimum size bead is 3/8". Often, when caulking wood trim to brick, the joints are much greater, especially when using tumbled bricks. Split rock come to mind as a product that really challenged the skills of the caulking crews. It is very common to see 3/4" tooled joints and there really isn't any way to avoid them, if you want to properly seal the joints and meet building codes which are very important, especially nowadays when mold is such an issue.Over the years, I read a lot about mold problems behind sidings in other states but I never heard or saw any in MI. I now wonder if perhaps we avoided most of those issues because everyone caulks properly? Brick Cleaning and Caulking crews were very common and a standard part of the builder's subcontractor network. In MI, painters don't caulk the exterior of buildings; caulkers do that. Heres the installation data from the OSI website. Scroll down to item #3 in the application procedure section. I know from experience that small beads don't hold up. They crack during the first winter so I've always just assumed that everyone does it that way but realized last night that probably not many understands this or doesn't care to adhere to it.To me, it's a liability issue. I wouldn't want to be putting on those cute 1/8" beads only to find myself on the wrong end of a mold lawsuit. They work great indoors on interior trim, but they just don't work outside. Happy Caulking! Incidently, most of the caulks used in MI are so tough you can't remove the window if there even a small amount not cut or removed. Of course, I've learned that the hard way when we had to R&R a window. I now run the sawzall around before I do anything.http://www.osiproseries.com/HowTo.aspx?ID=sbr-window-siding-caulkOSI¯ Pro-Series¯ SBR-100™ Window and Siding Caulk
For full product information, please download the Tech Data Sheet .
Directions For Use 1. All surfaces must be clean, dry, and free of oil, dust, dirt, ice, frost and other foreign substances. For maximum performance, remove all old caulking and loose paint prior to application.
2. Surfaces should be wiped down with a fast evaporating solvent to eliminate possible frost, ice, or moisture when ambient temperatures are below 40oF. (4oC.).
3. Joints deeper than 3/8 inch require a backing material such as polyethylene or polyurethane backer-rod. For shallow joints use bond-breaker tape. Application Procedure
1. Cut spout to desired bead size. 3/8 inch round bead is recommended for all exterior applications.
2. Puncture seal inside spout.
3. Use a standard caulking gun to apply a 3/8 inch round bead of material to all joints requiring caulk. Beads less than 3/8 inch when applied are not recommended, due to the expansion-contraction of various building materials.
4. If caulk is properly applied, tooling is not necessary or recommended due to the product's unique curing process.
5. Clean tools and excess caulking immediately after application with mineral spirits or other similar solvents following the solvent manufacturer's safety precautions.
6. If necessary, caulking may be painted after 7 days with either oil- based or latex-based paints to meet project requirements.
For more detailed usage information, please see the tech data sheet for this product. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, If you are seeing 3/4" tooled joints using OSI products you are looking at a caulk bead that exceeds the manufactures recommendations. Read the spec. sheet in the link You posted. 3/8" WIDE x 3/8" DEEP is the maximum they recommend.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I didn't study that OSI literature that hard and I don't know what the maximum bead size is. OSI is the most widely supplied caulk at the siding suppliers but caulkers don't normally shop there for their supplies. I used to pick up my supplies from a supplier that only sold caulk. That was many, many moons ago though when I thought I was interested in remodeling. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I read through the tech data sheet...and a couple things right off the bat I wasn't thrilled with was the """Exhibits poor adhesion to redwood, cedar, and PVC (vinyls)."""We'll use either cedar, azek, hardie or advantage pine depending on what the architect and/or customer want. So right off the bat, this caulking would not be recommended for 2 of the 4 products, if I read that right?I'm curious as to why you linked to a Hardi installation file from the United Kingdom instead of the Hardie installation procedures from Mi (which be the "North" version on Hardie's site. Was there something specific there (other than detail 4.1 on page 11) you wanted us to see?I did find on Hardie's US site, an example of installing trim over the siding, and have included a picture here. This is for the MD line of siding which is only 7/16 thick. We use the 5/4, but I could not find this detail in that file. You'll note in the side by side pictures (siding butted to trim versus trim over siding) the difference in recommended caulking procedures. Is there another pdf or document that shows the caulking detail you use?This picture shows the installation around a window, not a corner. But like I said I could not (yet) find a picture of the corners done that way, in addition to Hardie showing their recommended installation and caulking procedure. Do you have one?
I actually don't know why that search resulted in that particular site or document. I typed in several words looking for a hardi guide and that popped up. My knowledge about hardi and their trim methods are derived from site training by hardi reps and the printed literature that used to be delivered with every shipment. I prefer the idea of running the siding behind the corner boards. It does two thing: it hides the cut ends deep and therefore has less chance of being water damaged. It also changes the dynamics of the joint in general. If we are concerned with water getting behind the siding, doesn't it make sense to you that you would try to cover the ends of the siding up, rather than having them just caulked? We also install the window wraps when we have too but the key to that is the top flashing if it is exposed to the possibility of rain. Its not a particurly perplexing problem to solve though. It simply means that you need to carefully decide which size metal flashing you are going to work with and mate that with your real world situation. Often the standard 1 1/4" flashing works perfectly. If not, a custom flashing will have to be bent, which is routine in my opinon. I own a brake and know how to use one but the need for it is rare. Your research on the caulking is not surprising. Caulking is a chemical and each caulking has specific properties that serve specific needs. If you use it in the wrong application, it will fail. I suspect most people don't fully research their caulking choices. I know I have been guilty of that myself. It's too easy to buy "the best" caulking at the big box without fully taking the time to determine the ramnifications of the chemical reaction between the three or more final components. I'm not recommending OSI although I have used it many times in the installation of sidings and trim. Keep in mind too that in MI, we don't caulk before the exterior is painted which seems to be different than what I've heard in here. In fact, I've been snickered at by some of the stars in here when I mention this but I stand by our methods. The idea is to create a weather proof shield and caulking is an integral component but it is not permanent. The best seal for exterior sidings are a latex skin that will withstand the acid rain and damaging sun rays. The caulking is applied over this skin and binds the trim to the siding. When done like that, it stretches and moves with the expansion and maintains it's raincoat. Eventually, it fails and it need to be fixed. It's a simple matter to add more if the basis bead is intact and not allowed to rot for several years. Maintenance of caulk is simple: you look at it each spring and touch it up where needed. Replace as needed. This save energy (air infliteration) and protects against mold. Caulking comes in colors that are used as a compliment to the colors of your paint, roof, brick and other trim. Done right, it's just like any other of the important artistic components of a well executed home. Caulking is a skill that is part science and mostly art. Good caulkers take as much pride in every inch of their installations as much as you do in your carpentry. The good ones do wonders and no one notices them or their work. That is their goal and reward. The bad ones get all the attention and bring on the ill advised wrath of the true "craftsmen" that can build so tight they don't need caulk. I know how to fit parts tight too, but I still put that very thick bead over every connection because that's what I do. Maybe I can develop different tactics now that I'm in Texas...but... I've seen some of the spiders here and I think I might have to beef up my caulking beads to battle these creatures.....I've seen mice that were smaller! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I can understand your wanting to create a waterproof, everlasting, mold free installation.However, to me, using a 3/8" minimum bead of caulking on not just 1 piece....but maybe 200 joints of siding on a house is crazy, and asking for trouble, long term.You mentioned that if caulked and painted every year......well, that is a pipe dream in reality. Seriously. 2nd.....when it does NOT get checked every year, and 3 years later for example, you do get a crack in the caulking, and water DOES get behind there??? By placing the trim over the siding, you have IMO created an opportunity to lock water in there if it does get behind there. When your caulking joint goes from 0 (where the trim is sitting flat on the siding) to 5/16" (where you have the gap), what are you doing at the tight spot? You now don't have that minimum 3/8" gap that you want. Are you putting on a 3/8" bead on the outside?I think what you're doing here is contrary to how 99% of the installations are done (I'm not saying 99% are done right..not even close). I don't care if Hardi says it can be done, I doubt they would install their product like that. The picture I showed you from one of the manuals shows the trim over the siding...but no caulking on that joint, whereas the siding butted to the trim is caulked (1/8" maybe). That is pretty much standard procedure.
I'm not advocating 3/8 bead of caulk in between each joint of the lap siding. The best solution there is to do nothing because a 1/8" caulk cannot stretch and it is guaranteed to fail. Your secondary drainage plain is the primary solution there. I'm not buying the story that no one pays attention to their exteriors. Even if they neglect them, it doesn't change the facts. I neglect my truck maintenance and every once in a while I pay a big repair bill. The same thing happens for folks that don't think they have to take an active roll in their house maintenance programs.No matter where you put your caulk: under the skin or over the skin, it isn't permanent. I prefer to see it and know that it is easily fixed when it shows signs of separating from the paint skin. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
1st...Maybe I misstated.....the 200+ possible joints I was referring to are where your siding meets your corners. 2nd..the fact that you butt your siding to your windows proves (to me) that you are confident in that type of installation setup, so there should be no need to cover your corners with trim. (I know you said you liked the look better...that's a different issue)3rd...maybe it's different in MI or TX, but I know out here (west coast), people do NOT caulk and paint every year. As far as the maintenance on the truck...to me....bad example. Here's why.... if you neglect the maintenance on your $20,000 truck.....yeah...maybe you get a $2,000 repair bill. If you neglect the maintenance on a $500,000 house...chances are the repair bill is way MORE than $2,000. Since as you say, "No matter where you put your caulk: under the skin or over the skin, it isn't permanent."....I personally, would prefer to avoid 3/8" filled caulking holes....which is what this is......isn't it? To me, you've introduced a lot more maintenance.The only part I agree with 100% is the requirement of a properly installed secondary drainage plane.Last thing (for now..lol)...just so I'm clear... when you do caulk that space that in 7 inches (if you're using a 7" reveal) goes from 0 to 3/8" roughly... how much caulking are you putting there? Since the only place you have a "minimum" of 3/8" gap is at the very bottom of the joint. In that case, are you putting a 3/8" bead completely to the outside, since you cannot squeeze it into a 1/32", 1/16", 1/8", etc gap? I'm still not clear on this. Maybe I'm thick headed.
Actually, the largest gap would be 7/16". Backer rod is required for the widest part. On the house pictured, I shot expanding foam into the void and let it dry and then painted. It acted like the backer rod. I then caulked after paint with an OSI product. This was my experiment to see how it all would function. Every year I monitored the events and I had to touch up several areas of the joint at the brick sill. There might have been some touch up needed in the corner boards but nothing that made any impression on me. It certainly kept all the water out.Your point about butting to the window is valid. I do have faith that a properly sized bead of 3/8" minimum will yield satisfactory results. Of course, that also assumes that the installers have properly left the necessary gap that the window company requires, as well as the gap that the siding specifies. If a window is getting a wood surround, I find it much more desirable to run the siding under, thus protecting the ends and eliminating all concerns for expansion and contraction. Leaving the gap is something that many carpenters fail to do. In fairness, it is far less critical on short pieces so this discussion is focused on the longer runs which have movement under the heat/cold cycles, especially on the sun side in winter. On of the most common problems I see when wood surrounds are applied flush is that they often don't have enough caulk room at the seam with the window mold. You mentioned a 1/8" bead of caulk. I suspect that a lot of folks would admire that but I wonder how they would think if they knew that it didn't meet the manufacturers recommendations? I'm all for being a maverick and I would do something like that for my own house knowing that I also would constantly monitor it and take the necessary steps to remedy the situation if/when it failed.Umm, I don't agree with you're disagreement with my maintenace analogy. The biggest repair bill that I could see happening would be a mold problem associated with a water intrusion. Caulking properly according to manufacturers instructions pretty much closes up these leaks for as long as ten years and more. Normal routine painting when the paint fades, followed by a proper re-caulking will yield excellent results. Even if the leaks were neglected to the point of rotting framing, the bills aren't $500,000 unless everything is opened up everywhere. I would expect much smaller repair bills as evidenced by my real world history in the building industry. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I didn't mean the repair bills would be $500k. I meant that the repair bills could very easily (and yes, this is what I see everyday through real-world experience) run a lot more than that $20k truck. That's all.Normal, routine maintenance and painting does NOT get done on a normal routine (from I see all the time). Again, it varies by location, job site accessibility, owner's commitment to doing maintenance, etc.A 1 story ranch on a flat lot makes it easy to do maintenance. However, a multi-level home on a sloped lot where it might take scaffolding to do the regular maintenance....does NOT get done once a year, every 2 years, or even 5 years from what I see every day.Once water infiltrates past the siding/trim, past the weather barrier (including all the flashing components), the repair bill to fix the "rotted framing" as you called it, and I agree because we see it all the time....gets expensive.Anyways, it's all good. It's Sunday and there is football today!
Yup trailer trash if I ever read it. I honestly couldn't tell you the last time I ordered any brickmould. It's amusing that you go on in great detail about your poor quality detailing and think calling someone out for being too cheap for brickmould is an insult. As though brickmould is some high end trim that breaks my budgets.wowGo build some more garbage tract buddy.The first thing I think when I see gobs of caulk and your style trim is "cheap hack" But I guess you like the "Chic Hack" look. At least your demographic is huge.
Say what you want. If you don't caulk everything, you won't get a CofO. If you caulk, you might as well use the proper size as required by the caulk company. Too small of a bead, and it cracks. Maybe if I'm lucky, some day I'll be as good as you. Until then, I'll happily live in my trailers. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Corners OVER the Hardie lapped siding? What do you do with the gaps on each panel that range from 0 to 5/16" (roughly the thickness of Hardie)? Do you fill those or leave them open?What kind of material are you using for trim? Hardie? Azek? Wood?1st, I don't like that detail with siding like this. If the siding were flat that's a different story.2nd, I don't want water getting back inside the corner and sitting there (hence why I asked what you do about the gap).
The gaps are caulked by caulking contractors. Lets not get too shocked about caulking a 7/16" gap. EIFS systems REQUIRE a 8/16" (1/2") gap.The worst look is corner boards nailed tight to the substrate, which is also the most prevalent installation that I've seen. Even if the boards are 7/8", it makes the siding and corner boards flush and the caulking tends to look very sloppy. It's a look that I abhor. The use of 5/4" is suitable to me but after 3 decades, I think I only remember seeing 5/4 material shipped as an exterior trim one time. My preference is to install the boards over the siding. The siding ends are tucked behind the elements quite well in that setup. I prefer the look too. If I wrap the windows, I prefer the boards to be installed over the lapped siding too. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
My preference is to install the boards over the siding. The siding ends are tucked behind the elements quite well in that setup. I prefer the look too. If I wrap the windows, I prefer the boards to be installed over the lapped siding too.
Jim,
I have to say after my jaw just hit the keyboard that I've never heard of this before in my life. I did see 20 years ago some guy installed cedar siding and nailed the inside corner on top of the siding with about 10 gallons of caulk and he had to come back and rip it off.
Are you serious? How do you trim and flash the top of the windows?
Nailing exterior trim over siding is standard practice where your from?
The gaps are caulked by caulking contractors.
Lets not get too shocked about caulking a 7/16" gap. EIFS systems REQUIRE a 8/16" (1/2") gap.
C'mon Jim, are you serious?Joe Carola
joe... i've seen it...
it sucks..
but i still like jimMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I still love Jim, but I think that putting trim over siding is insane and caulking is insane also. Just my 2 cents.
Joe Carola
Well pick that slackjaw up before bugs scurry into it Joe!Heres Mr Hardies installation guide: http://www.jameshardie.co.uk/downloads/hplank_fixingmanual_en.pdfGo to page 11, section 4.1 and see the detail.Windows can be flashed in any way you desire. Most of our installations have the windows tucked up to the frieze, which is tucked under the soffit system and I really don't fret too much about water intrusion at the head jamb. Flashings can be installed under the siding and over the trim or a drainage plain system can be used if the flashings are installed over the window casing only. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
How do you guys do your corners on Hardi? Are you using 5/4 stock? Or are you using the built up corners? Woods favorite carpenter
Last paying job I ordered and used premade Azek 5/4 corners..I liked it a lot, but the $$$$$ was astronomical IMO. Thats what the customer wanted tho' and he supplied it.
MY house I used ( and am still) 5/4 Cedar..I just can't make the Azek work in a fixed 3.5" dimension , I needed a wider corner in one area that is transition from log to sheathing.
Oh, the Azek premade is limited to 10' long IIRC, so again, on my house, I'd have a scarf..not so good, IMO.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
We run the siding, then overlay a 1x6 on top of the siding. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
That sounds like a great detail for re-roofing down the road. Pry the 1x4 off and all your step flashing is easy to get at.
I'm just the plumber here, but couldn't help but notice the piece of flashing to "kick" the water out away from the wall. I see so many houses that have a streak down the side and some that have rotted. I mention it to roofers and siders, but they don't install one.