@@ HARDIE PLANK – Your install tips?
My local Habitat chapter has finally moved from hardboard siding to Hardie Plank. Siding is not how I make a living, but I am happy to learn new skills.
I’d like your tips and Lessons Learned to make this stuff work. Hopefully I can develop an SOP – Siding by the Numbers. Pass out copies.
We’ve got a lot of homes slated for this stuff. Life is exciting enough without muddling through (Today’s Muddle: I had a crew of 15 for siding – or 10 more than I needed and none of whom had ever sided anything. Exciting.)
We are using coil nailers and Little Bear clips to position the boards. I have Malco nippers, nail cutter (very handy), fingers, etc.
The ToolBear
“Never met a man who couldn’t teach me something.” Anon.
Replies
I don't know how fast you want to go but speed comes only after complete prep.
I hand nail my jobs, simply because it's easier than dragging a gun and hose around and putting it down and picking it up at every board.
Oh, I work solo, so I also have to cut and schlep every stick into position.
Preparation is the key. All the corner boards and door and window trim has to be complete and depending upon how you install your soffits (before or after siding) will determine how you cut and place your top board.
The directions supplied by Hardie will give you the basics - house wrap, lattice starter, recommended nailing, etc. Don't forget the flashing.
I use the transit to get a level line around the house to position the first board. My corners are set so there is a 1/4" reveal below the bottom of the first course. You can be different. My first mark is at 7 1/4" above that reveal and then subtracting 1 1/4" from that and using a story pole I mark 6" reveal marks on every corner board and each side of the window trim. I adjust those marks slightly to accomodate course positioning at the windows if necessary.
I take special care in setting the first course because every one after that will be dependant on that accuracy. Especially in the middle of long runs.
Since I hand nail, I dislike popping nails in the bouncy siding between studs. Gun nails you wouldn't know the difference. To keep on the studs and to get a more secure nailing with penetration into the studs I go around the building and mark a vertical line with a sharpie. Works great with Tyvex, might have to use a piece of chalk on felt.
I work left to right (right handed) so I can hold a full plank with my left hand and the blue plastic gauge I got from the Hardie rep with my right. In another thread I told how I use an 1 1/4" stainless trim nail tacked against the corners or window trim or a previous plank just above the reveal height to provide a friction point and spacer as I whack in the first blind nail right of the center where I'm holding the plank to the wall. The plank will not fall off the mark while you hold pressure to the left against that tiny nail. One nail there and back up to the beginning (left) of the plank and commence nailing it off.
When I put the first nail in the plank at a corner board I pull my spacer and move it up to the next course. When I'm in the middle of a long run I slip a strip of felt behind the plank, nail it in the corner and stick a spacer nail there. When I put up the next plank I pull that nail and, of course, stick it in my mouth till I get to the end of the next plank and repeat the process. Extra stainless trim nails are great for holding down plank corners that want to flap in the wind for whatever reason and they don't show where the other siding nails or roofers you might use would.
My cutting station consists of a 2'x4' scrap of plywood on horses and an 8' to 12' stick of 2x8 hanging off to the left (I'm right handed). Two short scraps of 2x material, one 6" from the end of that 2x8 and the other at the extreme right of the cutting table hold the plank off the table so I can cut. I mark my cut at the forward edge of the plank and use a triangle to guide the saw. Some times I'll mark the full cut line.
I don't mess around trying to get the ends of the plank to fall on a stud. It's not necessary and wastes time and material. When I reach the end of a course there is alway a cut and I use the off cut to start the next course back at the beginning. I will not usually use any piece shorter than 14-16" but there are times it works out less and the joints are nicely hidden by a carefull caulking at the end.
Waste
Not a good thing unless you like to throw money away. Most of the time, if you take a little extra time and look at your short cuts such as between windows, door trim, corners, etc., you can use almost all of each plank. If you are paying attention to what you need you will know that you can cut 6'8" out of every 12' plank on a section and know you have a place for the off cuts on the other side of the building.
I don't know what the Little Bear clips are but if they are the ones you leave behind while nailing that's an expense you don't need. Use the money for something else.
Speed
As I mentioned at the top, if your prep is complete you can move along. I move my cut station as close as possible to where I'm working and don't bust a gut being in a hurry. I do about 4 squares an 8 hour day by myself and with a helper who is only cabable of holding the gauge to my right as I position and nail off from the left I increase that to 5 squares a day.
If I have a helper who can stock the table, do the cuts that I need and occasionally hold the gauge and the plank I can increase production to 7 squares a day.
I would think that with all those volunteers you could finish a full house per day including the caulk. Your cut man/woman will be the pinch point. I think you could utilize at least two on the saw or nippers, two holding and nailing per building side (assuming a roughly square building) and a runner for each hanging crew to deliver full planks, and provide the cut list to the saw table and schlep the boards back. Make sure these folks know how to read a tape as well as those at the cutting table.
The actual installation is, in my opinion, a no brainer, so with a minimum of training even grandma could handle it. It's the prep that counts and maybe some of the angled cutting where they might need a little extra help.
And of course you with the whip and the mint julep to see to the coordination of the circus.
Good post. Lots of good stuff there.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Thanks for the tips. As we work Saturdays (M-F, I get paid for something else), we are never sure what the status of the project will be. Someone else did the screed to ??? standards (I have learned never to trust any layout I did not do or see done.) and horizontal control is always an issue. I get the first board on the weep screed and make sure the second is very level so we can take station from it - except that this end of the wall is 1/4 higher than that end, etc.I try to cheat up as needed in the first three rows, then above eye level to make the corners come in together. All the offcuts are marked for length and used between windows, etc. as possible.I will try your crew organization this Saturday. It should help us.I am going to try a diamond blade in my WorkFarce chopsaw to see if we can get square cuts done faster. If someone would donate a Hardie blade, I'll try that. <g>.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
I've used a diamond blade but I don't recommend it.
If you think a 4 tooth fiber cement blade throws a lot of chaff wait til you see the smoke cloud generated by the diamond blade.
Not only will it be dusty but it will be slower
If you use a 10" chop saw you will need to build a raised bed and fence to get a through cut. A 10" blade is only good to clear just over 5 1/2". Plus, a 12' plank is not that easy to slide into position under a fixed blade
I watched a crew use a nice Makita slider to make their cross cuts. It worked but I don't know for how long. I'll bet they threw it away at the end of the job.
I bought a $99 slider from Harbor Freight to give it a try. Built the cost into the job. Worked for about 15 minutes before the tubes froze up from all the grit.
I'm still using a Ryobi circular saw I bought in 1984 with a Hardi blade courtesy of my local Hardie rep. I even got him to donate a 10" blade and a set of gauges that I brought to one of the fests as door prizes. Call your local rep. You'll get a ton of good stuff, especially for H4H.
I still think your best bet for cutting is to use a circular saw with the Hardie blade (or similar) a speed square as a guide and support the plank on a 2x8 so the guard doesn't hang up on the table. You're only going to have a half inch of blade showing below the table unless you're gang cutting. Volunteers should not be gang cutting.
Another reason not to gang cut is that quite often the trimmers don't end up with plumb and square trim and the bottom, middle and top courses between windows/doors will be different lengths. Maybe not by much but it makes caulking and neat finishing harder.
Also, use a separate stand just to the right of the cut man for him to put the saw on between cuts. Putting it on the ground while positioning the next plank make for a lot of bending over and putting it on the table means it's always in the way when moving the material around.
When there are unusable off cuts have a trash can within easy tossing distance. A table will get cluttered in no time and so will the ground if you let it. You can turn an ankle on the smallest stuff. Usable offcuts need their own pile, away from the work area but close enough for the cutman to see and reach should someone need a specific length not part of the recurring long course cuts.
Did I mention that the off cut generated from the plank cut to fill in the end of a course is the starting plank on the next course?
If you are not using a dust collection system consider having the wind at your back and use a dust mask. Try not to position the cutting so it slings the dust cloud toward the house and other workers.
"I've used a diamond blade but I don't recommend it."Aren't the 4 and 6 tooth Hardi blades diamond? I agree with you that a diamond tile blade would be a total waste of time, but the Hardi blades worked great for me on rips and crosscuts. Some people swear by the shears, but I swear at them. The long curly scraps always seem to get in the way of seeing the cut line and after a while the shear just seems to crush more than it cuts. I find I have to file the edges of sheared pieces to clean them up and that makes plenty of dust.
I bought the shears and soon stopped using them. then later , someone told me to cut from the backside of the piece with the shears. haven't had the opportunity to try it (thankfully) but I will next time."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
@@ someone told me to cut from the backside of the piece with the shears@@@I'll give that a try.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
@@ I've used a diamond blade but I don't recommend it.Good tip. I'll take it back, unopened. The cutter table is improvised by moi each Saturday. Cannot convince the PTB that building some work tops out of scrap will speed building.Fascia on saw horses is sub optimal. No cleat for the saw for starters. It's reflexive to reach down to hook the saw. Nothing there to hook it.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
hardie blade is the way to go. keep in mind, when cutting the dust is essentially cement dust (silica). resporators are needed or dust collection.
this stuff is no good for you."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I don't mess around trying to get the ends of the plank to fall on a stud. It's not necessary and wastes time and material. When I reach the end of a course there is alway a cut and I use the off cut to start the next course back at the beginning.
Ralph,
Nice post.. Since you are not always "breaking" over the stud....Is your last nail sometimes as much as 14 inches from the joint?
Edited 10/30/2007 8:04 am by homedesign
I have a post on deciding how to reside my house. Like most I despise siding but these posts on Hardiebacker give one pause. Is Hardiebacker the only player in the non-wood clapboard game. Also are the "snips" everyone refers to meant to replece the use of a crosscut saw, which is understandably dusty? I wonder if it is even safe to do the work with a toddler (ours) in the house...
Handy Dan
Hardi is not the only FC siding mfgr, but is probably the largest. The "snips", or shears, are like powered scissors to cut the board. (Look on Amazon for fiber cement shears to see what they look like.) They leave a 1/4" kerf, but not dust. The cut edge can be just a bit ragged, but not bad if the shears are sharp. The Hardi blades cut well, but make dust -- but not as much as a regular blade because they have far fewer teeth so they make bigger chunks. This is a safe operation if done with some thought. It's only the airborn cloud of dust that is a potential risk, and since you'll probably be working outside, I doubt if a toddler would risk exposure. It's similar to cutting tile or masonry with a dry diamond blade.
As for the esthetics of the product, I like it in appropriate settings. I wouldn't use it to restore an architecturally significant structure, but otherwise, IMHO, it is an attractive alternative for siding and it's pretty much bulletproof and low maintenance once installed.
YMMV.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
thanks Mike. That is really helpful. We live in an very attractive 100 year old house with aging wood siding that has been painted several times. See photo. I have to justify the price and time the the "the Boss" who is just as much against vinyl as I am. Also I hear all kinds of horror stories related to the fact that once the siding is up, you can't maintain it or repair it as easily as traditional clapboard. My thinking is perhaps to do it one side at a time and spread out the cost. Since I have happy clients who have hired me to do traditional wood clapboard, I figure I already have the skill base to do myself. IMHO? YMMV?
Handy Dan
Well, now you did it. See, that's one of the houses I might think twice about using Hardi on. Pretty classic example of a nicely designed, wood & shingle-sided home. Hardi, being thinner, has less shadow line and thus looks more modern, or modular. (Hard to explain.)
In the end, it'll be your call, weighing design considerations (traditional look) vs. maintenance. Look at the bright side -- if you go with wood, it'll probably cost more, and be a bit harder to maintain, but it'll be a lot more fun to install. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
PS: I don't know what they're talking about regarding hard to repair/maintain. So long as you nail it properly, it's comes off easily with a puller or hacksaw blade. It moves less than wood, so your joints stay tighter, and it doesn't check like wood will. Paint sticks to it like glue. I think sometimes folks think any problem that they are not used to dealing with is harder than the problems that they deal with all the time, no matter how much a pain in the azz those problems are! IMHO, the esthetics concerns are legitimate. The rest is bunk. Just my $.02.
Edited 10/30/2007 3:47 pm ET by MikeHennessy
<<Is your last nail sometimes as much as 14 inches from the joint?>>
The greatest distance you can be from a stud is right in the middle of a bay. 16" oc framing would be 8". I don't frame exterior walls at 24" oc. but that would be a max of 12".
<<Is your last nail sometimes as much as 14 inches from the joint?>>
The greatest distance you can be from a stud is right in the middle of a bay. 16" oc framing would be 8". I don't frame exterior walls at 24" oc. but that would be a max of 12".
Ralph,....I thought you were letting the joints fall randomly?
Right. No matter where the joint falls it can't be more than half a stud bay from the nearest stud. If the joint falls 14" away from the last stud that's where your put your last nail in that plank (minus an inch so you don't blow out the end of the board). All the previous nails were on the studs or 16" apart so that last nail will be less than 16".
The next plank get a nail at the first stud and if there is more than a few inches - like 3" or more - to the end of the plank, that end gets a nail too. Keeps the plank from curling out at the joint.
If, instead, you were just pounding nails in randomly along the plank, not caring if you hit a stud, then you would have to place your nails at 12" on center. Nails in OSB or plywood alone don't hold as well as those placed in the studs.
Hardie will allow nails at 24" oc as long as you hit the studs.
I haven't done much Hardie; this area of NE is still heavy on cedar and vinyl.
I found that caulking afterwards turns into a mess, depending on the caulk used. So I started caulking the ends prior to installation. Better coverage, and not near the mess, but a little more time-consuming. But maybe that's my relative inexperiance.
I bought the Maita saw with the hood to contain the dust, and the Hitachi FC blade. By far and away much better than the shears, which I needed for irregular cuts.
I gun in the SS ringshanks, but some contend that ringshanks cause blowouts, which I found to be true. Too close to the edge and not only will there be blowout, but chunks might fly off, or delamination occur, or both.
The stuff is brittle and breaks easily. Carry it on edge, and support the longer pieces in at least two places as far from each other as possible (about 3 feet is good, any closer and the plank could flip on its side and break.)
Although I try to be as efficient as possible, I also try to minimize field joints. If a 12 footer will fit and I have drop-offs that will also fit, I use the whole piece. I know it's not efficient, but I've fould the drops get used readily enough.
I use Vycore to back flash the field joints. Hardie rep said there was no problem doing so, and it's one less thing I have to carry around (stapler for the tarpaper.) And there's always plenty of Vycore around.
Good luck. And Go Sox.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Forget about the diamond blades and get a pair of the sheers. If you're slated to do more than one house, believe me they pay for themselves right away. You don't get the dangerous dust and it's so much less of a mess. Also you can cut curves to a point with them.
Also if you do it solo, (I didn't read all of Ralph's stuff, so 'scuse me if I'm repeating), get a set of hangers and guages they make for this type of siding. I use a roofing gun, but a siding nailer is fine too.
"I've used a diamond blade but I don't recommend it."So how do you rip 1/4" off a 12-foot plank with those shears?The FC shears have a place, but they won't cover all the cuts needed in a typical job. They don't make as much dust as a circular blade, but they create a mess of their own from the kerf curls and dust made when edges are filed.
"So how do you rip 1/4" off a 12-foot plank with those shears?"Well yeah.... of course you're going to have to use a diamond blade for some such cut as that. I mean as the general course of cutting I do not recommend using a diamond blade. It creates a ton of dangerous fine air born dust. Now if you have the means and want to deal with that, getting it out of your clothes etc, have at it.
I have sided several houses with the stuff and have used both shears and diamond blade for cutting purposes. The crumbs and curls from the shears fall right to the ground.
I recommend the shears.
i agree... we must have ripped about 400 lf on the job we're doing
the Malco shears follow very nicely , we have one set mounted on a Bosch Brute and another set on a new Panasonic lithium drill
i even made some 1/2" rips for under some of the windows
if you want to speed up the rips.. put the shears on a corded drill, you get faster speeds
we'll never go back to saws with FC.. and we've got all the right blades, and special saws, and vacumn setupsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
@@ Also if you do it solo, (I didn't read all of Ralph's stuff, so 'scuse me if I'm repeating), get a set of hangers and guages they make for this type of siding. I use a roofing gun, but a siding nailer is fine too.@@@Habbie has the PC sheers. Nailing is with Hitachi coil siding nailers.
The Little Bear clips are donated and seem to work well with volunteers.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
I also agree with using shears.
When we first started using fiber cement siding, I did a little research and bought these tools:
PorterCable 6605 shears
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Makita 5057KB saw with dust collection
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PacTool SA902 siding gauges
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And also bought a couple of Hitachi 18008 HardiBlade's for the Makita 5057.
We used the saw once and have never used it again, since there is almost nothing I can't do with the shears. I do long 12' rips with the shears and could almost do the 1/4" rip off a board like mentioned earlier. Actually it would have to be about 3/8" to do that rip, but it is close.
Also check the PacTool website for other fiber cement tools.
http://www.pactool.us
Edited 10/30/2007 10:11 pm by Kgmz
I like using thhe flush nailer on my framing gun so that the nail doesn't quite set, then tightening it up by hand (hammer). I think it gets things tighter.
@@ I like using thhe flush nailer on my framing gun so that the nail doesn't quite set, then tightening it up by hand (hammer). I think it gets things tighter.Habbie issues coil nailers. Do they make a flush nose for these Hitachis?The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.