A 20×20 living room has 16 year old solid white oak flooring installed over 3/4 CDX and 50# felt paper on a concrete floating slab. The floor was recently refinished. Within a couple of months, part of the floor raised up an inch or two in a smooth hump about 4 to 6 feet wide and several feet long.
I assume that not enough expansion space was provided in the original installation, but do not know for sure. In any case, does anyone have successful experience getting a floor like this to flatten out?
Joe
Replies
wait till winter.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
Joe
Did any of this accure before the refinish job?
I'm wondering about the length of time that the wood was exposed. I didnt check your profile so I dont know where you live, humidity a factor?
Hopefully someone (like a floor guy) will chime in here.
Doug
Seems there was some minor buckling before but nothing like this. The floor has always been finished, with pretty good stuff (Zinsser Target while it was still made), but the old finish was badly worn. I speculate that moisture through the slab or from some other source had been escaping through the worn finish, and the new one sealed things up tightly.
our 3/4 red oak floor in the basement does exactly the same thing.We've learned to live with the waviness.
I've ascribed it to a moisture problem- coming up from the slab.
Any chance that it was a latex floor finish? ie dumping a bunch of H20 into the floor, and nary a chance for it to escape once the surface started to cure???
Was it a Tauntonian book on hardwood flooring that showed the walls of a gymnasium being pushed out by expansion due to humidity, and massive waves in the floor.
I've seen more than one hardwood installer totally ignore the "acclimitization" specs on their material, including one who pulled oak off the back of his pickup in a rain, and started installing it immediately in an unheated house.
Hardwood would not be my choice over a slab, but folks do it.
Eric in Calgary
The new finish was shellac, so no water.
Joe
My guess is your getting moisture up through the slab.
Not really anything your going to be able to do about that unless your willing to rip everything up!
Doug
"Was it a Tauntonian book on hardwood flooring that showed the walls of a gymnasium being pushed out by expansion due to humidity, and massive waves in the floor."I've been trying to find out where I saw that, was it a Taunton press book, do you remember the name?
I did a quick scan of my library tonight. It just didn't pop up.Sorry. I know I seen it!!Eric
I think it was the basketball gym at Southwest Texas State U in San Marcos, about 5 yrs ago.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
"Any chance that it was a latex floor finish? ie dumping a bunch of H20 into the floor, and nary a chance for it to escape once the surface started to cure???"I am not going to guess how fast the surface of a finish might cure vs the "body".However, finishes only slow down mositure movement, not stop it.So even if that happened after a 6 months are so it would be back to normal moisture levels.
Joe,
A couple factors could cause this. Excessive moisture. The slab heaved.
Do you have a water line or waste line running below or in the slab? Have you had excessive rainfall and or water leaking beneath the structure?
We do have waste lines in the slab. Not sure about water. There is no deep frost here to cause heaving (Dallas, Texas), although cracked slabs are common due to soil expansion and contraction. We are in deep drought right now with water restrictions.
No question that there could be plumbing-related moisture, although I am not sure from whence it would come.
Itis interesting, though, that the problem really showed up afterthe floor was refinished, which apparently trapped the moisture-- where ever it is coming from.
Joe,
Do you have a sprinkler system? If so, is it located adjacent to the house or is it a couple of feet off the house? Check the spray pattern to see if it is hitting the house.
On one of our projects, we installed the floor about two years ago. Last fall they "upgraded" their sprinklers and resodded the yard. The sprinklers soaked the bottom four feet of the exterior walls and since the new sod required lots of water, they ran the sprinklers two hours per day everyday for two months. We're having the same drought you are here in Austin.
We leave a minimum of 1/4" inch space and more often closer to 1/2" for expansion. The floor buckled in the same way as you described. We removed the buckled section and cut a 1/2 strip off the floor and it fit back in.
We will repair the floor once the sprinklers have been moved.
Bruce
Joe,
Finish won't trap enough moisture to cause the floor to buckle like that. It's simply a coincidence that the floors were just finished.
I happen to be in Dallas right now working with the largest floor company in Dallas. The current drought is causing major soil contraction/splitting slabs and that in turn is breaking waste and water lines inside the slabs.
I could come over and get a moisture reading for you. If something is broken then the buckled floor is the least of your worries.
I see you made it.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Bruce and Ditch:
Thanks for taking the time to respond -- and Ditch especially, thanks for offering to take a moisture reading. We are a bit too far out to be convenient, but it was a very kind offer.
No sprinkler or anything -- and this problem started before the drought and has just been bugging me for a while. Could be a leak, but I hope not. However, it goes most of the way down in the winter. I suspect the floor did not have enough expansion space, and/or may have been laid before the wood had acclimated.
If it is a leak, I guess I have a big headache. If not, I guess I am hearing from everyone that there really is not fix other than perhaps to take up the floor ald give more expansion space at the edges?
I absolutely hate to admit this since it can be used without fixing the real problem, but most wood floors are made of strips wider at the top than the bottom to keep the joints tight, which is why the floor buckles up instead of simply forcing the walls out or causing compression shrinkage in the floor.
A sharp japanese pull saw can be used to cut along the flooring joints, allowing enough room for the flooring to lay down with very little damage to the floor and few visible gaps once the floor lays down. It's not simple or easy, and requires a great deal of concentration for the many long precise cuts, but it does work well.
As the cuts are being made the blade will start to bind as the floor moves so you'll know right away that it's working. Just take a little out from a number of joints before starting a second cut. Remember, you've not cutting off the tongue, just take it down to the top of the tongue.
I don't recommend this if there is indeed a moisture problem that needs to be fixed. However, if it's a matter of flooring installed too dry with edges buried under cabinets or other hard to pull items, then this is a fix that can make the difference between pulling up a bunch of trim and or floor, and getting it to an acceptable level.
For a client I wouldn't use this fix over a large area since it doesn't allow a reasonable amount of room for expansion if the floor were ever to get wet, but for a personal floor it's up to you.
A final warning: if the flooring is cut and there is a moisture problem, when the moisture problem is taken care of you'll have fairly significant gaps at the cuts. Also, if your cuts aren't dead on, the floor will probably need to be refinished to cover the carnage.
Back to this topic -- assuming that there is not a broken pipe problem or somethng else horrible, is it possible to just cut some relief at the edges of the floor? The edges are quite accessible on one side, and the moulding would not be a problem to remove. Spot refinishing is fast and easy on a shellaced floor. If a quarter to half an inch of relief would do the trick, I'd happily do it.If this is an option, what saw and blade would be best?Joe
Pulling the base and cutting a strip would probably allow the floor to settle down, but it's still an odd problem. If it were my floor I'd pull the base and use a saw of some sort to cut 1/2" off the sides.
A toe kick saw would be the fastest since it's like a circular saw that cuts right up to verticle surfaces, but a sawzall would work especially if using a long course blade.
Cheers
Joe...edited the previous message in regards to shellac.
Interesting point about the fasteners. Now that you mention it, I'd be surprised if they didn't hang up.
Yes, clear shellac is the topcoat. It was originally a bit of an experiment on another floor that had a badly worn coat of Zinsser Target (Target is no longer on the market, but was an excellent finish -- two parts -- seems to have been a catalyzed and hardened Shellac).
The finish was worn, but the floor, once cleaned up, had a nice patina that we wanted to keep. We didn't want to sand -- hence the use of Seal Coat, which is a 2# cut of completely dewaxed Shellac that will stick to and seal anything. We liked the look of old shellaced floors, and we liked the fact that the base coat can be topcoated in about 45 minutes, and that the solvent is alcohol which has minimal negative effects on humans (in fact, humans can ingest shellac itself without harm). So, we had an extensive email correspondence with the tech staff at Zinsser, who agreed that Shellac is fine for light to medium-duty use on floors.
Application is very fast. Drying starts out at 45 minutes for Sealcoat, but for second and third coats, we found that overnight was necessary. Light scuff sanding between coats was all that was needed. To our eyes, anyway, the finished look is very nice. A year later, and that first room still looks fine, even in high traffic areas. It will wear, of course, but another nice thing about shellac is that you can just clean and then Seal Coat the worn spots, followed by some more clear shellac. It is really a very simple finish. It is also by far the easiest I have ever used or cleaned up.
Of course, shellac forms a very tight seal over everything. It will even seal out sap stains in painted lumber. It is ths tight-sealing nature that made me wonder if the new finish had exacerbated the floor buckling.
Joe
Joe,
I'll email my friend Bill Price. He was Pres. of product development at Zinsser and was instrumental in bringing "de-waxed shellac" to the market.
Oh, no kidding.
Congratulate him when you do. That stuff is very useful for many things besides floors. An excellent product, overall.
Joe
What Sphere said. Wait it out. Wood has a way of returning to the rested state it was in when it was first seasoned, that is unless it is subsequently cut and the tension within is released.
Kinda like some people I know.
"A 20x20 living room has 16 year old solid white oak flooring installed over 3/4 CDX and 50# felt paper on a concrete floating slab. The floor was recently refinished. Within a couple of months, part of the floor raised up an inch or two in a smooth hump about 4 to 6 feet wide and several feet long."
Some friends of mine who do a lot of hardwood floors and did some for me on slab floors completely cover the slab with bituthane (Peel n Seal) then nail down at least 5/8' plywood to the slab before they nailed down the hardwood floor. To my knowledge they have never had a bad floor.
Doubtless there are many floors without problems. However, this one has two definate and annoying humps. I'd greatly prefer not to take it up and put down anothermoisture barrior.Does anyhone know if there is a way to cut some relief into the edges?Joe
Once I have seen relief cuts sawn in and then it happen again. Eventually the floor was redone. If the floor is moving that much imagine what is happening to the nail/fasteners holding the floor.
You have a point. The nails that held the 3/4 CDX to the slab have doubtless been pulled out in two sections.
Joe
Are you sure the ply subfloor has seperated from the concrete? Do you know how much force it takes to lift the ply??...LOTS!
I think you may have more than a "moisture problem".
First thing you need to do is get some moisture readings thruought the room. Without moisture readings you'll just contiue to scratch your head.
Good point. I really don't know if the ply has separated. Just guessing. I suppose it might be easier for the oak to separate from the ply.
I'll get readings.
But IF there is not broken plumbing or someting, is it possible to solve this by cutting relief on the edges?
Joe
Joe,
Increasing expansion along the cross grain perimeter of the room is a remedy only if lack of expansion is the problem. No need to increase expansion longitude as wood moves very little in that direction.
When lack of expansion is the problem, the floor will buckle very quickly after installation, usually within a few days, a few months at the very most. Your floor has been down for so long, without any problems, that it is apparent that the original installation was done properly.
Having spent 25 years in the wood floor business I can tell you that buckled floors are always a result of excessive moisture when structural issues can be ruled out. Locating the source of the moisture is paramount to proper remedy. Also, floors cannot buckle after refinish because the 'finish trapped moisture' and caused expansion. There is just too much ventilation between the boards to allow that to occur.
Prior to the buckleing, did you add excessive moisture to the house by texturing any walls, or did you add a humdifier to the house? Have you checked for water infiltration to the slab via plumbing leaks. I have seen a lot of floors buckle when the ice maker to the fridge leaked slowly over a long period of time and trailed under the floors to the lowest point on the slab, sometimes a room or two away. In N. Texas a lot of floor problems were the result of foundation soakers too close to the house or one of the zones running for too long during their cycle.
If I were to inspect this floor, the first thing I would do is get moisture readings from the area where the buckle occurs and move out clockwise reading and recording moisture levels directly on the floor, writing the readings on pieces of blue tape stuck to the floor exactly where the readings occur. This procedure allows you to 'map' the floor and often times locate the source of moisture migration. My concern would also be with mold that is created in closed spaces with moisture. It is a bonafide health concern.
Are you able to "push" the buckled boards back down by standing on them...or jumping on them? This test reveals the severity of the buckle. If the buckle is like a trampoline it's less severe. If it's more like a concrete speed bump it's more severe.
But like I said...until you get moisture readings, and check your plumbing, anything you do physically to the floor is a poke and a stab.
Excellent and detailed advice indeed.
The history is this:
15 years ago, the floor was put down on a slab that was then already about 20 years old. It was finished with Zinsser Target. In a reasonably short time (I forget how long) there was a minor bulge near where the larger of the bulges is today. There was also minor cupping overall. ABout five years ago, the floor was sanded and refinished with Target. Very soon thereafter, the bulge came up, although not as badly as now. It then went back down and became almost unnoticable over the period of a year or so.
This May, the floor was screened lightly and refinished with a coat of ZInsser Seal Coat, and then two coats of clear shellac. Within a week or so, the present two bulges appeared, one on each side of the room, a few feet out from the wall.
The bulges are between an inch to an inchand a half or so high at most, and can be bounced, as you say, like tampolines. On fact, I can hear air rushing in and out when I do it.
Joe
Joe,
The fact that the floor buckled soon after installation 16 years ago tells a whole new story. Apparently you've had this problem on and off for the life of the floor.
I would still investigate. Get moisture readings and rule out a leak.
What do you mean by "clear shellac". Shellac is generally not a surface finish or topcoat. If your floor was finished with a clear waterbased Poly then that was the source of you moisture. Once a floor has humped up and down a few times the fasteners often hang up and won't allow the floor to settle back down...hence the trampoline effect.
You can r&r the base and add expansion by cutting along the length of the room. Many rental stores have flushsaws available. Cut 3/4" and add shoe if you have to. You'll also have to remove the buckled boards and renail them.
Edited 9/18/2006 3:19 pm ET by ditch
OK, I am slow, but I get there. Have not yet had moisture readings, but polan to get them. meanwhile, I have found a leak in a bathroom next to the room with the buckled floor. The tub valve has been leaking -- not onto the slab, but into the hole the pumbing comes through, I found very soft mud under the slab there. This leak is about 12 feet of so from the nearest of the bumps in the floor. Is it likely that this moisture has gradually gone further?Anyway, I am now assuming I will indeed have to make plumbing repairs first, just as you said in the begining of this thread.The main hump is about 2.5 inches high or so, about 8 feet long, and about 4 feet wide (one sheet of CDX underlayment, apparently) and hard as a speed bump in one spot but bouncy elsewhere. The oak has come up with the plywood attached underneath, so both are bowed.In you experience, must the floor be taken up? If so, can any of the the existing oak be saved and put back (it is not seriously cupped except for two strips)? I have talked with a carpenter who is a bit uncertain about the job as he is not a floor man. Any idea the rates that capable floor men charge in the DFW area?
You might get away with removing the affected area and replacing. The old flooring will not survive removing, so you need another box worth. Cut out the warped sub-floor and replace. Install the new flooring using the standard patching method.
MAKE sure its all dry first!!!
Joe,
I would get the plumbing repaired and then just wait. Give everything a month or so to dry out, run a dehumifier in that room. some times everything will go back into place....sometimes not.
Replacing the subfloor and flooring will require a sand and finish if you want everything to match up. Come back and report after the leak is fixed. I can give you the number of one of the guys I worked with down there.....a seasoned floor pro who has done repairs like this for decades.....trust what he says needs to be done and let him do it.
Call your insurance agent now, get an adjuster out there to see the wet mud beneath the leak, often times these repairs are covered under your homeowners.
I will report back, thanks.
So you are no longer in DFW?
J