Replies

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 22, 1998 08:06am | #1

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   I am a seasoned flooring installer, but I don't speak californian. Anyone out there who can translate this for me?

   Somewhat multi-lingual,

   Tom

1. 
   Guest_ | Dec 22, 1998 08:14am | #2

   *Buck, my initial thought was to tell you that since contractors are in it for the money, don't love their work, and don't care about museum-quality work, it's unlikely they would be cruising this forum seeking better solutions, helping their contemporaries and being generous with advice to DYIers. Consequently, you wouldn't be hearing from any professionals in the areas where you're seeking assistance.Now, for what it's worth, my flooring people in Virginia always put down felt under hardwood. There are two reasons they give me: (1) the floor will be less likely to develop squeaks, and (2) "that's the way we always do it". Felt was laid under 3/4" maple on two jobs within 100 yards of the Atlantic in Virginia Beach. I don't think the oceans are that different, but maybe some flooring aces will jump in here and give better rationale for the use (or non-use) of felt.With regards to the water-based/low-VOC finishes, I'm afraid the future is upon us, and we are going to see more (and better) water-based finishes. California, I believe, has strict VOC standards. I have no experience with water-based floor finishes, but perhaps some of the pros using this forum will let you know of their experiences and preferences.Here's hoping your flooring project turns out so nicely that I would take pride if it were my own work.Steve

2. 
   Scott_ | Dec 22, 1998 06:29pm | #3

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   I posted a comment somewhere back in the archives, but its easier to repeat briefly here.

   Be VERY careful using water-borne finishes over oil based stains or mixing stains and finishes by different manufacturers particulartly if they are not both same base.

   I've had a dried water-borne finish peel right off the floor (like a sun burn) after application over an oil based stain and following ALL of BOTH manufacturer's specifications for prep, application, drying time between applications, atiabatic lapse rate, the price of chickens in Uzbekistan and so forth. And of course it must be the fault of the OTHER manufacturer's product not ours.

   Scott

1. 
   Rob_McPheeters | Dec 22, 1998 09:10pm | #4

   *I also live on the left coast and have used felt underlayment beneath a T & G hardwood installation. Never having done it with out felt, I couldn't tell you the difference in squeaks, but I haven't had any, so there may be some truth in it's use (plus, it will only add a small amount of time and the material cost is negligible). I have a question though. Being in the fog belt, would it be prudent to seal the "bottom" and edges? With constant exposure to high humidity, maybe the felt paper is a small expense to pay for it's vapor barrier characteristics...

1. 
   Buck_Williams | Dec 22, 1998 10:28pm | #5

   *Yeah! What's your point?

1. 
   Buck_Williams | Dec 22, 1998 10:49pm | #6

   *Moisture barrier was what I was thinking about. We use it under WonderBoard before tile application (Ceramic, etcetera. Don't know about Vinyl). You are right about California and the VOC's. It's a zoo. A lot of 'illegal' materials are brought in from Nevada. The biggest Smuggled items over the Mexican Border are CFC's and Auto Paints (VOC's again!)A clarification on contractors- I live in an area of Million Dollar+ homes, some of them complete with leaking roofs, cracked driveways, out of plumb, out of square, etcetera. The builders, either by accident or design, did this for top dollar. I have to be candid about this - contractors don't always measure up. The hundreds of square miles of Ticky Tack in this country attest to that. (yes, of course, price is an object, and one of the major reasons in this part of the country is overboard seismic standards imposed by politicians, they don't have to pay, why should they care? The money diverted to that, has to go somewhere else for the retailer to stay competitive.) I know many contractors who are more than craftsmen, they are artisans! And they bust their asses for their customers and their families!! But, BUT, the average, IN MY EXPERIENCE, doesn't. Nothing personal, but that's the way it is.

1. 
   Buck_Williams | Dec 22, 1998 10:52pm | #7

   *Thank You. This being Maple, staining would be one of those classic frustrating experiences. The finish is going on straight, three layers, sand & scuff in-between. You're right- Apples & Oranges, Good only in a fruit saladBuck

2. 
   Buck_Williams | Dec 22, 1998 10:58pm | #8

   *Good point. Squeaks - I hate them. I always nail the sub-floor to the joists with Ring Shank nails after I pull up carpet and pad, before I put down Tile or wood. I have a lot of 10 ounce (I think, I'm going check on that.) But of course it's cheap, at whatever thickness. Bottom and edge seal? I think the felt would cover that issue. Good points all! I'll check.Regards, Buck

3. 
   chris_elliott | Dec 23, 1998 05:48am | #9

   *first about the felt from what i understand the old timers also used it as a dust barrier. second when you stain be very careful or your floor will be blotchy due to differing rates of absorbtion of stain. fine woodworking has several articles on this. enjoy.

4. 
   Buck_Williams | Dec 23, 1998 08:01am | #10

   *Gracias. Have no plans to stain. I learned my lesson about trying to make maple look like anything but maple a long time ago! The role of the Felt seems to be moisture barrier, sound dampening, a little bit of give for a more level surface, and a cleaner surface to lay the floor on. 15 ounces or better from what I hear.Regards,BuckP.S. Loved your TV series and films!!!

5. 
   Tony_O'Malley | Dec 29, 1998 08:21am | #11

   *I refinished my oak floors 18 months ago and was warned beforehand by a colleague who had a miserable time with water based finish: it wore out in high traffic areas within weeks or months.I used three coats of mid-priced Red Devil standard polyurethane, and it's held up great, even in the three-foot-square area where my kitchen, dining room, and living room converge. Drying time is about four to six hours, so you can get two coats down in a day. Even with water based finish you'd want to ventilate the space, and since laying the finish goes very quickly, I don't see the great deal about using water based other than the purely environmental sentiments. As previous message mentioned, manufacturers will catch up eventually with better product if we don't use the inferior (and more expensive) ones being offered thus far. Tony

3. 
   Guest_ | Dec 30, 1998 12:19am | #12

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   All these responses seem to corraborate what is hapening here in central NC. The water borne finishes are either not there in quality yet, or, finishers aren't up to speed on how to apply them. You definitly want the 15# felt (the roofing kind) but make sure your subfloor is securely secured. No squeaks. It get's pretty humid here,so, about every four feet put spacers between the rows of strip flooring. Fender washers work, stand them on the previous tongue as you snuggle up the next row. Take them out when you're done, and the maple swells to fill the gap in a couple of days without the washboard/ripple effect. Here's wishing you a silent floor.

4. 
   Buck_Williams | Dec 30, 1998 12:22am | #13

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   I'm going to install an 11'X13' maple T&G floor. I picked up the material today. First Surprise- It's a lot drier here than where you live. Let the stock season in the room it's going to go in for at least a week. (I live about 200 yards from the Pacific Ocean. The stock {3 inch by 3/4} has been on the second level of a heated warehouse for over a year.) OK, there goes having it done by Christmas Day. Second Surprise- Reading the BB's and Forums and Groups, there's a reference to felt underlayment. Never heard it mentioned in the several conversations I've had with suppliers and tool guys (And I've never known a supplier to miss a chance to sell me anything!) Is this a 'nice to have', a requirement in only certain parts of the country, WHAATT? Help. I'm installing 3/4 inch Maple over a 3/4 inch subfloor on 2X10 Joists over a Ratproofed {2 Inch Concrete) layer over the topsoil.
   House is a California Stucco Ranch about thirty years old, and yes, it is in the fog belt! What Say??
   Also, in the archives, I found a post extolling Water Based over Oil Based finishes. Less Smell, Harder Finish, etcetera. Mostly, BULL. Contractors use it because it doesn't have the smell (Almost no Volatile Organic Compounds) and it dries fast. In other words, they can finish in a day and get out of there. It is not harder than Oil Base, No way!! (I've learned this in woodworking.) It smells (The VOC's Evaporating) and you have to live with that for a week or so, so you can live with a better floor for twenty years. Contractors (Most of whom deserve respect) are in it for money, not for love. They don't have the time for museum quality work. The skilled Do It Yourself guy does.
   Buck