The past week has been my first experience with hardy products. we installed the exterior trim, soffet, and siding.
i have to say i’m not really impressed. i found that the 5/4 did not shoot very well with a siding nailer. it created small stress cracks at each of the nails. we promptly removed that piece and pre drilled each piece and fastened them with hand nails which worked better, but a lot of extra work.
i also found that the joints were much harder to work to perfection (yeah right) and that the hardy did not cut very well with the specialty blades we had on our SCMS.
i wonder how many carpenters are responsible enough to put this product on correctly? poor handling compromises it’s strength tremendously. with it’s brittle constistency i wonder how much has been put up incorrectly. it’s by no means idiot proof, quite frankly i found it much more challenging than wood.
i do see why consumers like it. no maintnance, won’t rot. but i’ve removed plenty of 100YO facia that was fine. how much longer does it need to last?
in my opinion other than for a water table i think that the negatives greatly out weigh the positives.
what do you guys think? i’m sure that i’m probably setting myself up to be hammered, but let the games begin.
Every day is a gift, that’s why it’s called the present.
Replies
Love the siding, HATE the trim.
I used Wood for my trim, if I were to do THAT agian, I'd try Azek..but $ kept me humble.
sphere, i can actually agree with you that the siding is not that bad. especially after the trim:)
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
Edited 7/30/2007 8:36 pm ET by arnemckinley
I've heard the same from all the siding guys on the jobs I had been on. The trim is hell.
I cut the siding with the Malco shears on a drill, from the back, works sweet, 'cept for a little nub at the end of the cut, and that is operator error on my part I think. For rips ( I've only had a few so far) I use my angle grinder and diamond wheel.
I have a Dewalt blade for the circ saw, just have not needed it yet.
You mentioned water table, I got 1 5/8th Redwood with the bevel and drip groove, and capped that with copper, a rip of 1/4" PT, then my first course. Worked out well.
Duane, have you posted any pics lately? Been a long time since I've seen what you're doing to your place.
Joe H
As to Hardi, I like the siding. And here in Cedar City UT every McMansion has vinyl or stucco with fakerock bottoms. never used the trim, I did my own with rough cedar - primed and painted the hell out of it before it went on.
Joe, I haven't taken a pic of the west and north siding yet, go mucho to go to finish.
Soon as I getit a bit higher up and the crap outta the way, I'll get a pic or 3 in my old thread.
Been REALLY scattered, with odds an ends cropping up.
"Love the siding, HATE the trim."
Amen to that, bro. The trim is fit only for the dumpster - and then only if you cover it up with the "good" junk. ;-) That stuff will shatter if you simply pick it up wrong. Hardi siding, Azek trim -- hey, it ain't THAT much more expensive and you may as well trim with a product that's as weatherproof as the siding.
I've got a neighbor whose addition is Hardi siding and wood trim. Siding is like new. Trim is all rotting out at the bottoms. Poor detailing, but still, if they'd used Azek, it wouldn't need to be replaced 5 years after it was installed. He's kicking himself for saving a couple hundred then, only to be facing a couple thousand now.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I gave serious consideration to Azek but when I was quoted a price, I chose to think about it rather than order it.
Ayup, it's up there.
I was quoted just a bit higher than FJ Preprimed Cedar tho'. From a local large supplier. And only 18' lengths.
I see Lowes here is now carrying a similar (?) product..3/4x6 x 10' just under 50 bucks.
I like Hardi siding not because it compares favourably with wood, but because of the other siding choices it replaced at the low end of the housing market. Around here most subdivisions had nothing but vinyl or stucco until Hardi came along, and while most of the houses still look like hell, they aren't as bad as they used to be. I guess that's damning with faint praise.
<I like Hardi siding not because it compares favourably with wood, but because of the other siding choices it replaced at the low end of the housing market. Around here most subdivisions had nothing but vinyl or stucco until Hardi came along, and while most of the houses still look like hell, they aren't as bad as they used to be. I guess that's damning with faint praise.>
that is about the best arguement i've heard thus far. as much as i dislike hardi, i dislike vinyl even more:)
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
Funny the difference a day makes. My Building Inspector was just telling me that vinyl has made a comeback in low-end projects here since the requirements for rainscreens were added to our codes last Christmas. The code reads that there can't be more than 20% contact between the sheathing and siding, and evidently vinyl qualifies without strapping. Bah!
>>>it created small stress cracks at each of the nails.
Have you got a depth-of-drive adjustment on the nailer? Might have to slack it off a bit.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I've never worked with it, but have looked at it in the yards. Makes me glad we got our house done with Masonite while it was still available.
the plus sides you've hit on... the 100yo wood you pulled off that was still good... is not wood you can get any longer...
i like hardie.. if you do it right you can leave it for what i'm guess'n to be 20yrs before you need to paint it again... i've used it in industrial look situations with galvinized trim...
i cut mine with electric shears that look like sheet metal shears but for hardie... zero dust...
when i rip it... i just use a cheap carbide blade and toss it after a few cuts...
given the choices... it's way up there
p
<the 100yo wood you pulled off that was still good... is not wood you can get any longer...>
i disagree with that. with maintnence the wood you get now will last that long. what are you basing that on? Growth rings per inch?
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
I base it on fact... I could write a book on it but the books have already been written... do the research...
yes any wood thats kept dry, away from insectsand fire will last... well forever... i just don't see those 3 stars line'n up
p
<yes any wood thats kept dry, away from insectsand fire will last... well forever... >
that is my point.
you said that you can't get wood that will last 100 years anymore. you are wrong:(
<I base it on fact...>
that's a persuasive arguement.
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
the 100yo wood you pulled off that was still good... is not wood you can get any longer...
I disagree with you here, too, p.
I'm not saying it's a dime a dozen, but "old growth" wood is still around -- you just have to look for it and be willing to pay the premium price for the premium product.
Edited 8/1/2007 3:05 am ET by Ragnar17
Used Hardie on my house 4 years ago and love it.
Used the power drill style shears to cut it and a paslode cordless with galvanized 8's blind nailed to hang it. We rarely have much wind here but it did weather a left over hurricane 6 months after I put it up.......43 mph steady with 87 mph gusts
Trim was just arriving at that time and wasn't that easy to find instock, so......I ripped 3/4" OSB and made corners. Primed, caulked, painted to seal them well and then ripped a hardie plank in half and topped the 3/4" to protect it fully. This hangs over the ends about 3/8" and got filled with caulk.
No leaks no rot
Luvin' it!
Pedro the Mule is out of the weather
Honey....get the cordless nail gun....her boyfriends baggy pants are slidin' off
I'm just a DIY HO, but after extensive reading here, I chose Hardi siding with Miratec trim for the workshop I'm building, and I'm happy so far. (One advantage of the Miratec for me was that my trim color is a fairly dark blue, and if I remember correctly, Azek and the other PVC stuff warned against that, due to thermal expansion problems, I think).
A number of people thought Certainteed FC siding had a better wood grain pattern on it.
I trimmed the windows, corners, and water table on my house with harditrim, and liked it pretty well. I used pine on the eavework. I would not use a siding nailer to install the trim. Handling hardi products does require a "delicate" touch. I have broken my fair share.
I used a 15 gauge angled finish nailer, and that's what the hardi brochure recommends, for what that's worth. I bought a couple of the hitachi 10" blades to cut it with. Dusty as all get out, but they cut pretty well. I didn't have too much trouble with joints, but then again, I am a carpentry master. Just joking with ya!
I don't know if I would use it again, definitely miserable to work with! Wood is definitely my first choice, but good freaking luck finding good stock reasonably! The fingerjointed crap most yards sell is terrible.
So here's a whole other debate: Can azek and other pvc boards be recycled? I hope that all this new trim we are using isn't going to end up in landfills.
Dustin
We have been putting on hardie for about 10 years now and I think I have finally found the way I like to do it.
If the customer wants the hardie trim and I cannot talk them into the trimcraft or miratek then this is what I do.
I shoot the trim on with a bostich or max trim gun. Then I drill 1/8" holes and drive in 3" galvanized trim head screws. I have tried everything else and this works great. I know it is time consuming but I have come to accept the fact that this is what I have to do to put this stuff on and know that it will stay.
I cut the 5/4 and the 3/4 with a diamond blade on the circular saw. I agree that the joints are hard to get perfect and again I accept that as a problem with hardie. I quit trying to 45 degree bevel cut the straight joints because the butt joints looked better and the screws keep everything from moving.
All that said, hardie trim is difficult to work with but my method works well for me and the builders like the way it looks.
Also, I cut the siding with a pair of Jett shears. If I have arches then I have a carbide tipped bosch jig saw blade that cuts hardie siding like butter. I install the siding with galvanized screws. First I shoot about 3 siding nails to hold the siding on and then I put the screws in. The screws make sure that the bottom overlap snugs up tight and you do not have to face nail anything.
Well, this is my method and it works great and we have gotten fast enough to still give a fair price to install hardie. Also, I feel good about the siding when I'm done and I know that the house will not have siding issues later on.
James
james,
it sounds like you have a lot of the tricky downfalls of the product figured out. i'm not concerned with guys like you installing, i'm worried about the installation done by someone who doesn't give a sh!t whether it falls off after they get paid. from what i've seen there are a lot of those guys out there:(
i think after reading your post i might go back and screw what i have installed.
thanks for the tip:)
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
So you are saying the right way to do it is to screw it up? ;)Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
so how are you guys finishing this stuff ?
one of the big pitches for the cement siding is that it can be prefinished with a factory finish. fine if you are blind nailing.
this sounds great until you remember all of the trim that you have shot or screwed on leaving lots of holes.
are you guys using the factory finish ?
carpenter in transition
I went with preprimed, will paint after its all done. Like that will ever happen ..(G)
It is true that the trim needs quite a bit of hole filling. We use the pre-primed. I have not seen or heard of the pre-finished hardie. We use the lightweight hole filler because it swells a little when it drieds and when you first put it on you can wipe it with a rag and it looks good and comes back out of the wood grain if any happened to get into it.
It also takes a lot of caulk where the siding meets the trim. Hardie is time consuming siding to put on but we enjoy it now that we worked the problems out.
We just finished putting 35 squares of the straight edge shingle shake on a lake house. Talk about time consuming. We've learned a lot about this product that the directions never address.
We got a call from one builder to come fix the hardie on a new house. The installer had put it on with a finish gun. You could put your fingers between the overlaps. It was simply coming back off the house.
James
After reading one more discussion about how hard the harditrim is to work with, I might just have to specify Azek, or similar, for all the trim on the new brick veneer house. Can't believe I'm saying that.Environmental concerns aside, anything vinyl in this humid north GA climate gets covered with mold and algae. We're old and building our last house. Don't want to be on ladders; not rich enough to bring in help all the time--if you could find reliable around here. Just don't want the hassle.But now I'm wondering how the G.C. on this is gonna find a crew that can install the Hardie trimwork so it's not a maintenance problem. Jeez!
Many good posts here and I'll add my $.02 after residing our house with HP and composite trim boards (all preprimed). We used SST screws for everything - holes in the trim boards were predrilled and countersunk and the divots were filled with lightweight spackle. A sharp putty knife and sone practice lets you match the wood grain pattern almost perfectly on the filled holes. Prime the cut ends of the trim with Kilz or similar to keep water from wicking in. Use plenty of caulk at the joints between the HP and trim. After filling, priming and painting, the screw holes in the trim are invisible and everything still looks good four years later.All of this is time consuming, fussy work and flies in the face of what "pro" siding installers typically do. You'll probably have to pay a premium to get the extra care needed to do the job right.
I appreciate your comments. Well, I have to decide now whether to write a detailed specification for my contract with the GC on the house and go watch the crew install the Hardie product, or give up and go with Azek, hoping most crews will know how to install it.The premium labor cost won't hurt as much as coming back and having it fixed later, or having a continual maintenance problem. But, I'm not the one to train and supervise anybody on doing it right. I'm only looking at trim, soffits, etc. The siding will be brick. Before I discuss the 2 choices with my GC, I'm trying to guestimate what the likelihood of actually getting the Hardie trim done right are. Unfortunately, Tom Silva and his crew won't be working on my place.
I'm with sphere, love the cement siding will never again, even at gun point, install the trim or have someone else install it.
If the durability is what you are after I love PVC trim.
<will never again, even at gun point, install the trim or have someone else install it.>
i'm with you there. the concept is interesting, but it's just to brittle in my opinion. that's my biggest complaint, all the nasty dust aside.
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
In case anyone is interested, I just paid $21.11 per board for the Miratec trim. 5/4 X 6" X 16'
10$ a linear Ft for 5/4 x6?
Sounds high..
16 LF= 8 BFx 21.11=168.88 ..........
I am in need of an education, in what respect is it similar or different than PVC ( such as Azek) ?
I may have flubbed an estimate, due to my ignorance of the nomenclature.
sphere,
i believe he said per board not per board foot. although i misread it myself:)
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
Ok..whew. When I read " Per Board......" I naturally add the "FT" at the end...LOL
Whew.
OK, OK, I was hoping to avoid that difficult mathematical process of division, but since you two force me: $1.32 per foot for 5/4 X 6" Miratec.
Thanks, I did the same cluster wank on a bid the other day.