>Cloud … what kind of materials would an excavator need an advance for? I got burned by my stoopidity and a stone mason who needed an advance for materials … and it was my responsibility to provide the stone and the sand!
Ed Hilton asked this in another thread and I didn’t want to pollute that one, so it’s now in its own.
We had a landslide from Hurricane Frances. Lots of boulders and mud slid down our mountain away from the house. Needed to put something back to protect the house. House not damaged, but didn’t want a sheer exposed dirt cliff for too long.
Call excavator we used for initial excavation. He always helped and always billed fairly. So he comes out right away, I give him deposit for move-in of trackhoe. Then I give him money to bring in the Redi-Rock (big concrete lego block). Why not…I don’t expect him to front the cost of the stuff. So, it’s delivered and he does initial cleanup, cuts a base for the wall, brings in crushed stone, and starts on wall. Finishes the first half or so. Asks for money to bring in the second half of the block. I cut the check. Then I don’t see him again. Hard to reach on the phone. Always an excuse. Doctor sidelined him for a week. Weather not right. Whatever. Won’t answer the phone till I block my # from caller id.
Skip to two months later, with track hoe sitting idle the whole time. I finally get ahold of him after calling his ex-wife for a bit of assistance. He comes out to the site and admits the money’s gone. We agree on the amount legitimately spent and the amount “gone”, and it’s all in writing. He says he simply doesn’t have any money at the moment to make good, but–I’ll remember these words for awhile–“I’m a Christian and I’ll pay you back.”
We agree to talk in a few weeks…give him time to get on his feet…and make arrangements for repayment. That time’s now, so I gotta make the call.
In the mean time, I get the work done by another excavator (his ex-wife owns a company!). Didn’t advance anything and paid the material supplier directly…I already had an account there. Heard all sorts of rumors from her about his troubles, lack of child support, and the big screen tv he just bought, etc.
So, was it wrong to advance funds, especially to someone I’ve worked with before? Can’t imagine it was wrong…lots of builders get retainers and deposits for materials.
What if I call and he says, I just don’t have it, and won’t any time soon? Small claims, of course (well, depending on limits). Criminal? Cop friend says it’s theft by deception. Don’t know if that’s a smart route to go. Not gonna think about it much till I hear his plans.
So, that the story, Ed. Any thoughts?
Replies
I don't think you did the wrong thing as far as the money goes since you had a relationship with him established. Sometimes thing just go wrong and you can't control it. You do the best you can and it still doesn't work out. I always contend that the most inconsistant thing on the planet is people. But we haven't gotten dogs trained well enough to do construction so we are stuck with it! DanT
It happens. Most anyone would do the same thing as you. The guy has a proven track record why wouldn't you?
As far as what to do. If what his EX is saying checks out then I'd put the pressure on him and keep the screws tight. Like your friend says it's theft by deception, and he'll do it to everyone he can.
As an ordained Minister I can put in a call to him if you want. I outrank him unless he's ordained too.
One more tip. The next time someone brings up the trust me I'm a Christian line ask them what kind they are. My standard question is. "Are you a holiday Christian or full time?" The holiday ones always get a funny look. The full timers get a chuckle out of it.
Who Dares Wins.
Is that trackhoe still sitting there? Guess you could hold that as "collateral".
(-:
Don't know about the legalities involved. But it's got to be worth more than what he owes you.
.
I got burned by a person who claimed to be a christian too - Back when I was in the Army. Borrowed $600 dollars from me. (Roughly a month's salary back then)
He had to pay to have his Wife flown over to Germany, then the Army reimbursed him. She turned out to be a real witch, too.
Never heard a word about the money when the Army paid him back.
Ever since then it's always buggged me. I know you can't judge ALL christians by the actions of one. But it still bugs me.
I'm pretty sure there's a rule against lending money in the service. You broke it!
Whoa! I lent a lot of money in the service. Made good money doing so. Just depends on your collection methods I assume. I never heard the rule I guess. DanT
"I'm pretty sure there's a rule against lending money in the service. You broke it!"
Actually, I lent money all the time in the service. I was one of the few who didn't spend all their cash on drinking and drugs.
But every last drunken slob and drug addict paid me back every nickel they borrowed from me. There was only one guy during my 4 years of service who didn't.
Borrow money from pessimists--they don't expect it back.
Well, at least the "storage fee" on the track hoe should equal the amount "gone".
See your lawyer about putting a lein on it and selling it for the storage fee.
Any over your money and costs to sell, incl. lawyer fee could be refunded to him.
I've been thrown into better places than this.
So that's why you never showed up in that new Subaru to borrow my crawler....
Other than that, <G> you did nothing wrong.
I've been burned more than a few times that way. Seems to me just part of the cost. What I don't do is lose very much money. Other than paying for an almost impassable driveway.
Way back when in Denver I had a client who'd been badly burned by a GC. We had an agreement for some builtins and were finalizing. He wanted to write checks to the lumber yards rather than me. I told him to call the guy who'd recommended me and talked him out of his notion. Worked out fine. Sometimes you get burned trusting, but life's a lot easier relying on it.
I assume he reclaimed his hoe as soon as y'all had an agreement?
Folks loudly proclaiming their faith, in my experience, haven't been the ones most likely to put it to practice.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
jim.... i have one sub that i have to pay COD for all of his material deliveries..
and ,yes.... if one of my subs wants some front money.... they get it.. i'm sure it's one of the reasons they work for me instead of some of the competition
with your guy.... if the money ain't comming... ask him to give you a written credit , so he can work it off..
and make sure he knows you don't want to spend a lot of time trying to get him to live up to the bargainMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Getting burned for money... it happens. You don't mention an amount, but I assume it's in the 4 figures or worse. Is it enough to start getting legal on him? Personally, I would probably file an immediate complaint for the amount outstanding plus legal fees, and get the guy served. Ask that the equipment be frozen, pending outcome. If it costs too much to actually file... have your lawyer write the 'we're about to sue you' letter, and see if that kicks him into gear.
Anyway... excavator on my property... guy owes me several large... the excavator might be (*ahem*) somehow temporarily lacking some critical ignition and fuel system components. Otherwise he'll show up when you're not looking, skate away with the machine, and go to someone else's job.
His equipment was rented or borrowed from someone else, it turns out. I couldn't disable it or its position woulda blocked access by the new excavators, and getting the work done was the most important thing.
Oh well... so much for the monkey business. Probably just get you in trouble anyway.
I'm curious if major damage to your property is covered by HO insurance, even if it's not the building?
Nope, not insurance. Landslide exclusion.
Cloud, all is not lost...yet.
Since the feller has already stiffed you twice, its time for some serious strategic thinking. First, you have to wonder how many other people he owes. If you have a bunch of people chasing him, you'll want to somehow propel yourself to the top of the food chain.
Get a hold of him and treat him with kid gloves. Put yourself in his shoes and let him know that you understand how bad he must feel and re-assure him that you want to continue with your relationship and that you simply want to come up with an agreement that both can live with...even if that means offering some sort of concession. Use the Christian angle if you must...it's pretty effective.
Then, after agreeing in principle about the amount, get some sort of security. It could be a 2nd mortgage on some property, a lien on his vehichle...whatever. Also, get a promissary note signed.
You'll be able to get all of this including a repayment schedule (include interest) if you handle it right from the beginning.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
It'd be faster to hit him with a tire tool.Who Dares Wins.
"Skip to two months later, with track hoe sitting idle the whole time"
He has your money and you have his track hoe? I would call him and tell him that you are selling it to collect what he owes you.
busta :0)
Sympathy to you cloud. Doesn't seem to be too much I can add, except what my therapist adivsed, consider it an AFGE. Another Frigging Good Experience. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. If it helps any I built my wife a wne cellar for Christmas and she has stocked it handsomly, so if you find yourself in Raleigh drop by for a wee dram of the good stuff and we can solve the world's problems.
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
So you can't be a better christian, and just forgive 'em? ha,ha,ha!Like Mike sezs, he owes you some work, make him feel guilty about it, but only in a christian way<G> Next time hire honest Muslims...or maybe you could borrow another trak hoe and tilt him for it...be a renaissance man!Honestly, sorry for your predicament. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Thanks, G. I may just open some of the swill tonight. How'd the weather treat you today? It caused us to miss a gymnastics' meet. Less bummed after I heard of the problems they had running it. Daughter took it really well...chance for her and dw to play all day.
Anytime someone says to you "Trust me, I'm a christian" run as fast as you can.
A true christian won't tell you that - at least none that I know. Honesty is based on history of that person with you. If they've never done wrong with you, you trust them. If, however, they have stiffed you before, or someone you know, then chances are high they'll do it again, christian or not. Someone trying to get over on you will say that - just to get you to believe them.
You did what we all would have done. And now you're having to deal with it, just like we all would have to do.
Sometimes life just ain't pretty. James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
Sounds like the guy played you, if he was a Christian he would have done the right thing in the first place. I like good Christians but I hate to hear, "trust me I am a Christian." A good Christian doesn't have to say that, in this case it's just part of his ripping you, that is what I think.
Only update is that the DA won't handle it...says it's a matter for civil court. If I sue, I'm chasing bad money with good, and if I go small claims, I'm giving up half the claim and NC doesn't have a great track record on collections. Not sure the best route.Is this something that debt collection agencies can handle? Is it worth getting them involved? Anyone ever do this and have any lessons to share?
Most collection agencies work on commission. The amount of the commission is something I don't know; maybe someone else on the board has had some experience on that.
But the way they collect money if they ever do is by scare tactics and keeping the pressure on the guy until he settles with them just to get them off his back...or convinces them he is 'judgement-proof' and they drop the thing. Most collection agencies never really go to court, even though they threaten the debtor with that every second sentence.
There is an alternative to granting a commission to a collection agency, if you can find a credit outfit willing to bite. If the guy who owes you has assets that can be attached etc, sometimes an agency will buy the debt outright from you for a flat amount--which could be as little as 5% or as much as 50% of the amount owed you, depending on what they think their chances are of collecting. Once they buy that debt, you no longer own it and they can collect (or try to) any amount they want, even more than the original debt (interest, administrative fees, attorney's fees, yadda-yadda) if they can make it stick. You get no extra dough if they collect the whole thing plus the max limit the law allows for ancillary charges.
But you do get the up-front agreed amount whether they collect or not--which is why it's sometimes worth it for a guy in your position to sell a debt for a small percentage of its book value....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Your description of the collection agency that "buys" the debt gives me a mental picture of a guy named "Big Vinny" wearing a black leather jacket and driving an '88 Sedan DeVille.You probably don't want to look in his trunk.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Your description of the collection agency that "buys" the debt gives me a mental picture of a guy named "Big Vinny" wearing a black leather jacket and driving an '88 Sedan DeVille.
Actually, the guy is more likely to be called 'Our Mr. Smithers' (as in "Our Mister Smithers Will See You Now") or something like that and be one of a few hundred 'vice presidents' of a registered financial institution. Buying debts at a discount is a common practice in the money biz. Banks do it for corporations all the time; it's called 'Factoring' and enables a company to have better cash-flow at the cost of some 'points' lost on the interest.
When it comes to bad debts, you're likely not gonna wind up dealing with a regular bank but with a specialist who gambles on stuff like this. Think of it as buying 'junk' bonds. They may be good...but they may not be, either. The up side is, if they pay off, the profit the debt buyer makes is bigger--usually way bigger--than normal. The down side is, he could lose everything on any particular buy. So he's not going to buy a debt where the debtor has no assets to attach or is otherwise judgement proof.
In Cloud's case, if the excavator owns some equipment that's not too heavily encumbered elsewhere, or if he was operating in his own name and owns a house, or if he owns any solid assets that could be attached, there is a reasonable likelyhood somebody with full-time lawyers on staff could collect at least a portion of the debt and still make a tidy profit...if they only paid Cloud say 30% of the debt's face value. Whereas Cloud himself would have to hire a lawyer and risk additional money to chase a possibility he could collect maybe no more than that same 30%...MINUS THE COST OF HIS LEGAL BILLS ETC.
Most debtors know it costs almost as much to go after a medium-small debt like this one as the creditor could ever hope to collect, and if they wanna stonewall they bank on the creditor knowing this also. But one thing that would tend to make a debtor nervous would be the threat to factor the debt off to a professional debt-buyer who can and will pursue him in ways it wouldn't make financial sense for the original creditor to use.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I'm not a lawyer, but I understand that debt collection agencies have no teeth. The only way they can collect a debt from a reluctant debtor through harrassment is if the debtor doesn't know his rights.
To be clear, the "debt collector" is not the person who is owed the money. It is an agency working on his behalf. The actual person owed the money can call a debtor as much as they want to. This law only applies to the agency.
According to the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act:
(c) CEASING COMMUNICATION. If a consumer notifies a debt collector in writing that the consumer refuses to pay a debt or that the consumer wishes the debt collector to cease further communication with the consumer, the debt collector shall not communicate further with the consumer with respect to such debt, except --
I'm not a lawyer, but I understand that debt collection agencies have no teeth. The only way they can collect a debt from a reluctant debtor through harrassment is if the debtor doesn't know his rights.
You are exactly right. It's all smoke and mirrors.
They use scare tactics such as 'If you don't pay we'll report you to the credit agency and you'll lose all your credit cards and the bank will cancel your mortgage...."
If that doesn't work they try to drive the guy nuts and embarrass him at his job by calling him twelve or thirteen times a week, calling him at work and being deliberately mysterious ("Um, it's a personal, confidential matter")when they ask for him so that everybody in the office knows they are bill collectors but they haven't actually said so (which is illegal).
They will imply (but never say outright) that the collector is a lawyer (they will use phrases like: "law offices" when answering the telephone, for instance).
Oh, yeah, real prime human beings, professional bill collectors are. 'Bout the only people I like less are professional deadbeats....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Today I went to Small Claims Court against him. I filed on the day I sold my house. Waited till then so that he couldn't retaliate. Don't know if he would have, but he knew where I lived, of course, and he had access to heavy equipment. Couldn't risk any sort of vandalism queering a sale.
Drove the 2 hr back to Asheville. Sat around a dumpy little room for 1/2 hr. [Didn't look NOTHING like Judge Judy's courtroom.] Defendant never showed, though magistrate did say he was served. Sworn in. Talked to magistrate for about 1 minute. He looked at the paper I'd had the defendant sign way back when acknowledging the amounts. Magistrate issued a decision in my favor for the jurisdictional max + costs. No interest because it was not written on that document I'd had him sign.
He has 10 days to appeal. If he doesn't and he doesn't pay, then I get to pay $40 to have the sheriff take and sell some of his property. Chances are he's judgement-proof, but we'll follow this for another coupla steps and see what happens. Good chance to see how the small claims process works (or doesn't).
Rough world sometimes.
PMP
only life affirming platitudes allowed - Doud '07
Good luck collecting the award. I won a small claims case, and it took a year to collect any money. The defendant was even declared in contempt of court.
A friend of mine saw one of his plow trucks on a job one day, and called me. I filed the paperwork with the sherrifs office to garnish the amount he owed me from his plowing contract. I was able to collect the three grand from that job. If my buddy did not see his truck there, I would have never have collected a dime.
Your case sounds almost identical to what happened to our exec director last spring. He had a garage built last year in a historic district (2-story, size of a small house). The contractor was someone our office had worked with in the past. Good guy, office nearby, very upbeat. Seemed to be doing well too. After the project was about 80% done, our ED started getting the excuses. Work is backed up, I'll be there Saturday, everything is backordered, blah blah. Our ED started checking up and found out the excuses weren't adding up.Long story short, now it's coming down to a court challenge that will most likely be nullified by a bankruptcy. Our ED is out to the tune of $10,000, give or take. He's a lawyer with a degree from Harvard, and knows the writing on the wall. But he keeps blaming himself for being a rube.Nothing 'rubish' about it. Sometimes garbage happens. A handshake and someone's word should mean something, without requiring a fleet of lawyers and documents to the fact. Kudos to you for being human.
wow, Jim... great follow thru ... two years !
thanks for the "rest of the story "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Have you gotten any reaction yet ?
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
No, I'm waiting for the next step, which, I think, is that his time to appeal expires on the 29th. Then I can pay $40 or so to have the sheriff seize property...if he has any.Edit: Just read my own note...it was 10 days, which is up. Guess I need to follow-up, be/c the county hasn't said anything yet...
Edited 2/21/2007 9:56 pm ET by CloudHidden
Well he must not have appealled so now the law gets to intervene.
My lawyer set this same thing up on a guy I loaned a bunch of money to and he thought he was going to get out of it until he found out he had lost all rights to duck out when he filed bancrupcy earlier.
I ended up trading out a bunch of work for the money he owed and we just evened out last month and he put me to work on his house for a week. Been slow here so he saved my butt.
Funny how these things workout sometimes.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
I think I'll be shelling out $40 to the county and sheriff, only to have it turn out that nothing is in his name...getting blood from a stone, and all that...
Two months later, I still have heard nothing. Never got written notice of judgement from County, notice of next steps, nothing. Remember, defendant didn't show for trial, so I don't know if or how he was informed of verdict.I read the "Guide to Small Claims Court" that was in the lobby of the Small Claims Court office. It says I next pay $40, fill out some forms, and wait. It says forms are online. Well, nothing's online. Call the office, they mail me the forms. One form says to only use for judgments filed before 1/1/1996. A post-it note on top says to send $15 check and fill out the top of the forms.That's all for the latest installment. No documentation from the county. Confusing forms. Inconsistent amounts owed. I'm not at all hopeful of a profitable resolution, but for now the entertainment value is worth the expense.
Please keep us updated on the outcome.
Just to make you feel like your not alone, i have 2 acres of alder and hemlock, My excavator said he would clear it, put a road in plus the septic, Got done sold the logs and took off, no septic, I have no idea what the timber was and how much he got, I was so busy working on my jobs i let things slide, i guess i learned a lesson, he goes to church as i do i guess God was on his side,