What style are you using for header for 2X6 walls? Thanks
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Replies
Here in MA we are still using tripled 2X with plywood spacers... even on small/load, small span openings. It's archaic and doesn't make sense, but the architects keep specing them and the builders are too nervous or ignorant to change anything. Sometimes I wonder how building trends even get started.... must be the remodelers. It seems that in new work around here, everybody is scared to death of something they've never seen before.
But hey, I'm just the framer..... what do I know? ;)
Thanks for the reply. For a house I am doing June the architect did not spec them. But he did draw the window tops 11 1/4 in below the top plate.....so he is send me the message......triple 2X12s. I am always looking for time/cost/heat savings ideas.
Triple 2x12's...what a waste of material. Granted, headers are often made from scraps, but just as often they aren't. My Mass. code book lists the size header required for different openings--you don't need a triple 2x12 until you get into garage-door territory! A single 2x10 with a flat 2x6 under it would be more than sufficient for most openings. Or use one of the insulated headers Boss Hog mentioned.
Mike
Single 2X10 with 2X6 flat means many very small cripples? Or raise the windows?
We make a box with a 2 by 6 on the outside and inside and insulation in the middle.
We use 2-2x10's with a 2x6 bottom cap.
Don't the "span " of the header dictated the lumber size?
As an example; a 4' opening =2- 2x8's
A 6' opening = 2-2x12's
Also, the header size is also dictated as to location, interior, exterior wall type and based on the number of floors supported.(over-all bearing weight)
Obviously, a header supporting another floor level plus an attic and a roof,(and snow load) would require more header strength than merely supporting a roof only.
Hube, good points there! I think folks are assuming a lot in this particular thread.
I am assuming nothing as I know nothing or very little about headers.
I have a 10' load bearing wall that has had the sheet rock off of it for nearly 10 years now. The wife wanted it off so as to open things up between the kitchen and living room. I would love to finish taking out the wall and put in a header. The only thing that it will be holding up is the rafters and 15 degree roof. The exterior wall is cinder block so I know that I will have to build a post against that wall to hold up the header. We measure snow in inches not feet, but we have had some bad ice storms measured in inches.
Not knowing how big of a header to put in is what has been keeping me from finishing the job.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
I think you're gonna have trouble getting anyone here to give you engineering advice on a project like that sight unseen. We don't want to tell you a header size and then have it fail because we were unaware of some contributing factor that was not mentioned or even noticed by you.
My advice to you is to contact an engineer, they don't cost that much. (I think the last time I got a beam size question answered by an engineer it was less than $100.00 . That's quite a bargain for some peace of mind.) Most lumber companys (REAL lumber company, not home depot) get their trusses, lam-beams, etc. from a truss company with engineers on staff. You could probably go to them and tell them : "I need to buy a beam from you, but I am unsure as to what size I need , can your engineer look at my situation and spec. out the correct beam size for you to sell me?"
Good luck, and remember, a little bit of money spent up front, can save thousands worth of repairs and damage control.
i
"Most lumber companys...get their trusses, lam-beams, etc. from a truss company with engineers on staff. "
Not to nit-pick, but -
The vast majority of truss companies don't have engineers on staff. The design work is done by trained monkeys like me.
Obviously, some are better trained than others...
I am opposed to millionaires, but it would be dangerous to offer me the position. [Mark Twain]
Boss, I guess I'm confused. The two truss companies that I deal with both tell me that they have engineers there in the office who do all the "engineering" stuff. Are you telling me that is not the case? What's actually going on on the other end of my phone? Are the monkeys getting enough banannas for all the design work? I guess the next thing you're gonna tell me is that pro wrestling is actually fakey. Or that Ed Mcmahon isn't actually sending me a million dollars? And I suppose Santa Claus isn't real either? Is anybody telling me the truth these days?
Man, it isn't even monday yet and I'm already having a bad week!
mark...
all of the truss companies we deal with have Engineers that will stamp the truss plans
most of the trusses are designed by CAD and truss designers.. then reviewed by PE's.. sometimes in-house... sometimes by contract
but every truss used in RI has to have a PE stamp and plans on file with the building permit..
so.. short answer.. depends on the jurisdictionMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The vast majority of truss companies can't afford the salary of an engineer. And you'd have to have a heck of a lot of volume to keep one busy. The way it typically works is that truss designers (trained monkeys like me) do all the design work. We do all the layouts and designs of the individual trusses. Truss designers are typically just guys off the street. I'd venture to say that virtually none of them have any college. An engineer fresh out of college would probably want a $40,000 salary. Truss designers around here start out at around $8 an hour. After 20 years in the business, I still don't make $40,000. If we need sealed drawings on truss designs, we email the job to our plate supplier. They have engineers on staff who put their stamp on the drawings (electronically) and email them back in PDF format.I'd venture to say that less than 1% of the designs I do ever get reviewed by anyone. The truss company you mentioned may refer to their designers as "engineers". People often refer to me as an engineer, even though it's not true. (I correct them most of the time) The only way to know fer sure is just to ask 'em. .But don't worry - Pro wrestling isn't fake.(-:
I live in a crummy apartment.
Once, opportunity knocked and a wall collapsed.
Thanks for answering my question. I will check with the local lumber yard (use to be a saw mill) and see who they have that can help me.
Sorry about taking so long to come back with my reply as I was gone a week at another project.
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Had a GC stop by today and took a look at things for me. He said that the roof is nearly free standing and there for needed only minimal support. 2 2x10s with 1/2" spacer is all that I need. Said that I should have no problem putting it up myself.
My cost for his effort: a six pack of beer.
Thank for your help
DaneI will always be a beginner as I am always learning.
Did you at least get to help him drink the beer?
I use 2X12s to avoid having to do cripple studs above header. Yes, it is over built, yes this makes for a colder wall but it saves a fair amount of time.
Yes, its "overkill', because in most cases all that is required is 2-2x6's (depending on the width of the opening,etc.)
and, I guess it can save a few minutes of time in not having to install cripplle studs.
But the few minutes savings of labour is quickly 'eaten up' by the extra cost of the 2x12 material.
Don't the "span " of the header dictated the lumber size?
As an example; a 4' opening =2- 2x8's
A 6' opening = 2-2x12's
Also, the header size is also dictated as to location, interior, exterior wall type and based on the number of floors supported.(over-all bearing weight)
Obviously, a header supporting another floor level plus an attic and a roof,(and snow load) would require more header strength than merely supporting a roof only.
For some reason Hube I never read this post to me. We frame all headers with 2-2x10's no matter what the opening is or if it's a bearing wall or non bearing wall or exterior wall or interior wall unless the plans are noted otherwise, then whateevr the plans say we do. It's just easier that way using all 2x10's because at 8' ceiling height with 2x10's and a 2z4 bottom cap it sets all the windows and door at the right height except for custome windows and doors.
I've never put anaything else in other the 2x10's ecept if there's a shorter wall than 8'. Every house you see framed here you will see all 2x10's or 2x12's or microlams but you never see interior non bearing walls with 2-2x4's and criples on top with 8' walls.
Every thing you said above is true I'm sure we could use smaller headers but by the time you cut 2x4's on a flat and then add cripples above or use 2x6 headers or 2x8 headers and then furr them down it's not worth it for me and it takes to much time then to stack 20' 2x10's on the horeses and layout your header sizes and then nail the 2x10's together and then nail the 2x4 cap on the bottom and square up the marks and cut one pass withy a 10" saw and your headres are done.
Joe Carola
To each his own.
Do you still use the 2 x 10's when its a ...say 12 ft opening, or larger when working on a 2 x 4 wall?
Do you still use the 2 x 10's when its a ...say 12 ft opening, or larger when working on a 2 x 4 wall?
No, anything 6' or bigger we'll use 2x12's unless the plan specs microlams or anything else.
Joe Carola
Maybe this will help.
http://quittintime.infopop.cc/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Const&Number=8372&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
Heck If I know....
Here in Iowa we do it the same as Joe Carola. two 2x10s with a 2x6 bottom cap, insulation in the middle
Around here, I'd venture to guess that 90% or more are triple 2X12s with plywood filler. Even in non-bearing exterior walls. Framers don't seem to have much imagination.
There are some guys who have taken up using 3 1/2" X 11 7/8" LVLs. (Solid ones, not 2 plies) But they're in the minority.
I really like insulated headers like these:
http://www.swi-joist.com/p_04.htm
But not a lot of places around here stock them.
Have use seen anyone sub insulation board for the plywood spacers? I don't know what the R value would be after insulation board was sandwiched and compressed. Thoughts? Thanks for the reply.
Do you live in the midwest, or some region where the Superior insulated header is available?
Imagine an I-joist 11-1/4" tall, but with 2x6 top and bottom flanges. Now imagine that it has two OSB webs, not one, and that they are spaced with about 3 inches airspace between. Got it so far?
Now imagine that the airspace is not filled with air, but with styrofoam.
A very popular item for framers where they are available. I recall that they come in one length only, something like 17'-6".
Get info about them at http://www.swi-joist.com
Edited 3/17/2005 3:57 pm ET by Gene Davis
4x10 to the outside of the wall with a 2x6 on the bottom for backing, then insulated with 2" white foam board on the inside of the header.
Standard Alaskan header.
Dave
Edited 3/17/2005 5:38 pm ET by DAVE MASON
we use a plywood box header as much as possibe.
and we almost never overbuild our headers. because they turn into a big cold spot in the exterior wall....
so.. the actual header depends on the span, the load, and certain practical considerations... we will SOMETIMES use a larger head to eliminate some small cripples..
Plywood box header. I'm imagining it.
A hollow box, with stile and rail edges of ripped 2x so that the built-out thickness is the same as stud depth?
Ply? What thickness? OSB substitute?
With a hole in it so the insulation pipe can fill it with dens-pac? Or is it stuffed with rigid foam?
Where are the span tables?
gene.. the specs are in the IRC..
we build it to take the place of whatever stud we're using ( 2x4... 2x6.. 2x4 with 2x2 mooney , etc..)
the frame is 1 inch less than the stud depth.. and the skin is 1/2" ply or osb in and out
glued and nailed...
here's one with one side skinned..
View Image
this is a double with a bearing block in the middle ( spans two windows with a jack in the middle )
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 3/18/2005 6:55 pm ET by Mike Smith
Insulated box with 2x6 top and bottom and whatever size members for sides that are appropriate for the length of the opening.
I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.