Replies

1. 
   Art_B | Feb 09, 2001 04:38pm | #1

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   Looks like no info available Andy, I was hoping for some other responses.

   I tried to find this info a few years ago myself. A scroll type compressor is the most reliable, but I could not find any quantitive data with test data backup, only maintenance reports.
   On split systems, the reliability other than compressor is mostly a factor of the skill and integriy of the installer, some advantage there for a packaged unit unless you have an good installer.

   Same thing goes for performance - you just about have to get the full vendor catalog with kW and BTU test data and compile the data on a spreadsheet yourself to compare different units. In some cases the SEER/HSFP ratings are useless. For instance, in some areas, using a 10 SEER unit is MORE EFFICIENT than a 12 SEER unit when most or all of the use is as a heat pump. Unless the environmental considerations are paramount to you, I'd stay away from the high pressure systems (F-22 alternative fluids) as their compressors/systems have almost no track record yet and we have till 2020 to use F-22.

1. 
   Art_B | Feb 09, 2001 04:46pm | #2

   *Andy, PS: If you are a real DIY , you can go to a number of various sites on the web and take a 20 question multiple choice test and get the EPA license to buy refrigerants. Trouble is, then effort and cost of the vacuum pump and storage equipment and learning the tricks to have installation skills is high. I destroyed a few compressors (used salvage for practice, and was before EPA regs)learning.

1. 
   Steve_Ernst | Feb 09, 2001 05:06pm | #3

   *to further muddy the issue:I went to our annual home and garden show in Jan.and talked to 2 heat pump outfits; first astandard air-to-air exchange type and the seconda geothermal water-to-air type.according to the air-to-air guy you can neverrecover the increased costs of a geothermal unit.The eer or seer reports of 20 and greater bythe geothermal folks is based on installing anundersized unit (and, I guess cheaper unit;I don't really understand this).And finally, apparently a lot of companies werefounded with the expactations of lots of businessthat did not materialize and many went bust makingit difficult to maintain the unit.talking to the geothermal guy, he said , in essence,none of the above. It seems (according to JLC) that Wisc. has a geothermal program for rural areas. I wonderif any of the Wolverines in the group are familiarwith the program and have any stories to tell, good,bad oe indifferent.Steve Ernst

1. 
   Andy_M | Feb 09, 2001 10:00pm | #4

   *Thank you for all your replies. It's funny that there doesn't appear to be anyone comparing system reliability, etc. Has antone ever heard if a Coleman heat pump is reliable? I was told it comes with a complete 5 year parts and compressor warranty

1. 
   Dave_Richeson | Feb 10, 2001 01:20am | #5

   *Andy, I am not sure but I don't think Coleman acctualy make thier on compressors. If it is a Copelan, or one of the big three Carrier, York, or Trane the warrenty is about standard. Whichever unit you buy you can ask for customer referances going back five to ten years. The problem with any heat pump is that they run almost year around. The compressor just wear themselves out. The greater the temperature extremes, the harder they have to work in cooling or heating mode. Geothermal units last longer because the heat source and heat sink is the earth or water, both of which are better thermal conductors than air. High SEER units, proper system design, and a properly insulated home are as important as proper installation. Putting a 12 SEER heatpump in a drafty old house won't reduce you cost as much as tightening up the house.Dave

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   Johnnie_Browne | Feb 10, 2001 02:57am | #6

   *concerning the twenty question test to buy refrigerate is misleading. That test, the epa 601 is a test only for automotive refrigerate. Household and commerical is a $280 test with over 300 questions close book and usually take a whole day. I hold this license and then found I could not buy automotive with it.

3. 
   Rein_Taul | Feb 11, 2001 05:19am | #7

   *I was talking with a colleague the other day.He recently moved into his dream home in the country. From what I gather it was not built by the most quality conscious builder.The latest headache to slip through quality control is his heating system. This is a high efficiency oil system. Apparently it needs very regular maintenance to keep the ignitors clean, CO sensors happy and exhaust systems clean and tuned. Either it is a crappy unit or poorly installed. As a result, my friend has been looking at heat pumps. He has a property with a high water table and good well, so installing a water exchange system is not a big challenge. What blew my mind, is the cost of the unit. To heat his home he is looking at around 30K Canadian. Granted that is only about 20K in US dollars, but still, the payoff is way out. This unit would have to provide 20 years of service to pay off. Most 3K HE furnaces need replacing in that lifetime. Are these heat pumps that well built? I doubt it.I think the technology is cool (no pun intended) and I love a good conservation story, but is this for real?

4. 
   Crusty_ | Feb 11, 2001 11:03pm | #8

   *The Trane dealer I bought from says Lennox is the worst equipment you buy -- the Lennox dealer said Trane is way behind the times, and not nearly as good as Lennox. Whoever you are talking to has "the best" equipment. I went with the Trane unit because the Lennox dealer did not do a heat load calc, just quoted "plenty big" units (bigger than the Trane dealer recommended), so I wan't real comfortable with his (Lennox) approach.Probably doesn't matter which unit you buy. I'd be more concerned about the quality of the installation. Have you tried Consumer Reports yet? (they have a website, $25 membership, but well worth it)

5. 
   Art_B | Feb 12, 2001 05:05pm | #9

   *Johnny B's correct on the license. The advantage of the 601 for DIY (which was all I was addressing) is that it will let one buy any of the refrigerants(who would buy R-12 at @$27/# anyway, pretty PC obsolete), and if you do NOT do any for hire work, the regulations are totally different (still need to have recovery equipment, etc., very expensive if you don't have under grandfather clauses.)The relative cost and life recovery costs have huge labor and profit components, partially due to the licensing, which makes the DIY route attractive, epecially for a packaged unit (no license needed whatsoever). I recommended a packaged Grainger (Rheem) heat pump to fellows at work, ($2300 for 4 T unit)and they got $10,000 intstalled price quotes - DIY installation takes one day ($7K for one day's work. At least one of them is going the DIY route (he is an elec. engineers, so no prob with DIY 100A branch circuit)

6. 
   Art_B | Feb 12, 2001 05:18pm | #10

   *Steve:Ground loop vs air to air and trade show salesmen.The dealers really like to do the old "apple and oranges" on consumers. My opinion is that the SEER and HSFP is another method of promoting technical illiteracy. The COP (coefficinet of performance = heat out/work input) number based on testing is the most valid. The way the SEER calculation specs are written, a clever lawyer/engineer combo can come up with some really good numbers (like the 20 SEER you were quoted) Ground source units are usually better at COP since they operate with a heat source of 54F or so (COP around 4.5), vs air ambient for air to air (COP only 3.4 or so at 40F) . Air to air are typically better than ground loop for air > 54F in heating mode. I run an air-air heat pump on my own house, and the cost is still less than nat gas in Pac NW, including unit depreciation/maint.(DIY) over 20 years(typical 35 F ambient, 1 therm = 74 cents, $0.075 per kWhr)

7. 
   nigel_martin | Feb 13, 2001 12:16am | #11

   *Speaking from my own experience. The York air to air heat pump that was installed at my house when new was the biggest piece of junk ever intended to heat/cool a home. The thing would run non-stop for the winter and was really good at one thing "driving the electric meter". The next door house still has a york unit thumping away. The 40f days and below were the worse for the electric bill. I would go for a drive just to get warm. Heat transfer should work fine but you need a heat source hotter than 40f. Geothermal with a constant 55f would be great if you can find someone with the special knowledge to get it working.

8. 
   Chris_Koehn | Feb 14, 2001 08:20pm | #12

   *Thought I'd chime in as a geo thermal heat pump user, for what it's worth..By the way, we in Wisconsin are Badgers, and not Wolverines (although neither live here to any degree..)we put in a system last fall and are only 3 months in to using it. We (that is, our highly skilled HVAC guy) put in a Water Furnace. It's set up to provide hot water for a radiant slab in the lower level and pumps hot water up to the first floor which is changed in to hot air by a First Company fan coil, which can also be run backward in the summer for forced cooling.The system was projected to pay back in less than five years, and has an estimated electric operating cost of $455 per year. So far so good..The only government encouragement to do this kind of system that I'm aware of is via the energy star certification. We did it for environmental reasons, and to keep our operating costs as low as possible, as well as not having to park a big stinking propane tank in the yard (there's no natural gas available here, as we don't use oil).

9. 
   Darrell_Hambley_PE | Feb 14, 2001 10:58pm | #13

   *Beware of salesmen who quote time-to-pay-back figures. These guys usually have no concept of simple arithmetic. For example, a $7,000 system, If added onto a typical 8% mortgage, would add $616 a year to your mortgage. This means $103 a month for 6 cold months when you're heating. If your electric bill goes down more than $103 a month, then yes, it pays back. (In 30 years, not "five years".) Darrell

10. 
    Chris_Koehn | Feb 16, 2001 08:28pm | #14

    *Cost of money was part of the discussion Darrell. Thanks for pointing out it's importance. $7K would be a pretty large up charge for a geo system IMHO Unless a vertical bore were being utilized. We went horizontal. It was about a $4K up charge over LP. FYI: Also not taken in to consideration was the huge jump LP took in price this winter..I think payback needs to be a part of any discussion like this. It's a huge incentive for doing geo.. or any more costly but environmentally friendly or energy efficient system.

2. 
   Andy_Micham | Feb 16, 2001 08:28pm | #15

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   I am looking for information comparing the total costs for a specific heat pump manufacturer when compared to other manufacturers. I am mostly interested in reliability statistics by manufacturer, not operating cost data. Sort of like a "consumer reports" for heat pumps. Can anyone help me?