Heat – requesting expertise, please
On top of everything (the holidays have been interesting), I now have no heat. There is something wrong about seeing your breath INSIDE a house and having to wear gloves when going to bed (luckily, I found a Federbett) and let’s not even discuss trying to take a shower.
Today, the furnace guy confirmed what I suspect happened (based on my 2002 experience). Inducer Motor hath failed.
Sooo, he is trying to sell me a new furnace. I would just like a new motor. My current furnace is a 1990 Tempstar, 80% efficient, which replaced the old octopus (coal original converted to natural gas).
Before the sales guy comes on Monday, I would like to be armed w/a bit of info. The high-efficiency furnaces. Don’t they work better in super insulated houses? If so, why can’t I just keep my old furnace? Replacing an 80% w/another 80% seems like a waste of money.
Next is new technology. Is it true that the US Government is giving a rebate for alternate energy or high efficiency replacements, or has that expired.
Now for the assorted furnace makers. Which is the best? I’ve heard of Lenux, Carrier, Trane and Bryant & Rheem. What should I be looking for in a new furnace. Thanks again for your assistance.
Dinner went well but the venue changed.
Replies
I did a little calculation. Like you, if you are replacing a 80% efficient with an 80% furnace it will amount to repairing the old furnace and nothing will be gained from the trade unless you get a newer one and would expect less problems in the future. If, however, you replace the 80% one with a 92% one, for every $1000 of fuel you purchase, you would save $163.04. Now if you live in a warm climate and only use $300 of fuel a year the savings probably wouldn't pay for the added interest on your investment. If, however, you would use $8000.00 per year as one of my neighbors has been paying, then the savings per year would be $1304.32. This makes it a very viable project. Do a little figuring. I replaced an old furnace in an apartment building that was working perfectly and had been doing so for almost sixty years. I figured the savings would easily pay for the new furnace the first year.
"The high efficiency furnaces. Don't they work better in super insulated houses." Sure they do, but it is all proportional. If you can save half your heat loss by insulating (which is very possible), then you should be able to save half on your fuel bill whether it has a low efficiency furnace or a high efficiency. The savings are accumulative and proportional. Do make sure your installer replaces the furnace with one sized to the expected heat loss. If your house needs insulation it might be wize to do both jobs at the same time.
Now for the makes of furnaces to buy - If you can tell me definitively whether Ford is the best or whether Chevy is the best car to have, then I can tell you the best furnace to get. I would get a name brand furnace from a well known and trusted installer in your area and you shouldn't miss it much. Good and quick service can far exceed the benefits of the best make.
Edited 1/3/2009 11:30 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Just a thought - See if he can stick the inducer fan from an old furnace he tore out and replaced..... into yours for the time being ...which will provide you with the time you need to research & choose a new furnace. Use junkyard parts for now if you can, so to speak.
Then take your sweet time. Don't choose the new furnace and have it installed until this one dies again. <G>
Are you sure the fan is dead and not just its switch? Switches are cheap, fans are more & furnaces are much more $$$. IOW, do you trust this guy?
On the other hand, an 18 YO furnace may be reaching the end of its life expectancy. It depends. Heat exchanger walls may be getting thin......maybe not. Can't see it from here so can't tell ya with any reliable certainty.
If you're going to fix and continue to run this furnace ....just make sure you have at least one quality digital read-out carbon monoxide detector in the house. That way *if* a hole develops in the heat-exchanger....you'll be alerted to that.
Edited 1/4/2009 12:54 am ET by HootOwl
The high-efficiency furnaces. Don't they work better in super insulated houses? If so, why can't I just keep my old furnace? Replacing an 80% w/another 80% seems like a waste of money.
No, a high-efficiency furnace works more efficently wherever you install it, as long as it is sized appropriately (not oversized, which many installers will tend to do).
This may be a good time to do some weatherization, improve the thermal efficiency of your house, and get an energy audit to determine what your actual heating load is so a new furnace will be sized properly.
To get much more efficiency, however, from a new furnace, it will have to be a condensing furnace (90%-97% AFUE), which will be direct vented, using no inside air for combustion. This will have the additional advantage of reducing the infiltration in your house, saving additional heating costs and maintaining a healthier indoor humidity level. A direct vent furnace also cannot backdraft and spill CO into the house.
Check out this website for more: http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12530
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
(not oversized, which many installers will tend to do).
Can you explain that?
I understand the problem with oversizing of air conditioning equipment. heating with gas doesn't equate to cooling so i must be missing something, unless you mean grossly oversized heating units (over 20%).
An oversized unit will tend to run for shorter periods, and a furnace is most efficient when it runs for a long time.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
"...a furnace is most efficient when it runs for a long time."
Aside from coming up to temperature at initial start-up, a single stage gas furnace is equally efficient during short run times as well as long. Entering air temperature and airflow across the heat exchanger affect the thermal efficiency, but not run time.
We all agree (I hope) that "right sizing" equipment is better, but that is due to reduced cycling and less wasted upfront cost. An oversized furnace (or boiler) will cycle more often and will not last as long as a consequence, but will operate as efficiently as one sized more appropriately.
Well, "long time" is relative. A furnace is running below peak efficiency for 2-4 minutes of each cycle.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
I understand the problem with oversizing of air conditioning equipment. heating with gas doesn't equate to cooling so i must be missing something, unless you mean grossly oversized heating units (over 20%).
Many older furnaces are well more than 20% oversized, and get more so if you do any weatherization improvements.
While the high-efficiency condensing furnaces don't lose efficiency by short-cycling, a conventional furnace will be less efficient and more costly to operate and maintain.
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/space_heating_cooling/index.cfm/mytopic=12340
"The most common sizing mistake is in oversizing. This not only makes the new system more expensive to install, but also forces it to operate inefficiently, break down more often, and cost more to operate. Oversized heating equipment also often creates uncomfortable and large temperature swings in the house."
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
EVERY furnace is oversized.
Know why?
EVERY furnace is oversized.
If you mean because they have to be sized for the maximum design heating load at the minimum design temperature, then they would be properly sized. Oversized is when they are significantly beyond that required capacity.
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Edited 1/8/2009 9:15 pm ET by Riversong
So, considering that outdoor design happens about 10% of the time, and I've yet to see a heating appliance sized that exact, so at least 90% of the time it is oversized. And probably 25% of the time it is grossly oversized.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.........
So, are you suggesting that a heating plant would be "correctly" sized if it could keep up with demand 50% of the time?
Riversong HouseWright
Design * * Build * * Renovate * * ConsultSolar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
No, a heating plant is sized properly if it never shuts off.
Commercial and industrial units sometimes come close, but I've yet to see one in residential.
We set up two 500,000 mod/con boilers in a 35 unit apt building. Together they can run from 100,000 to 1,000,000 btu. They haven't shut off in the last month.
I don't know what residential calculations are usually based on, but in the commercial world, HVAC designers typically use ASHRAE Climatic Design data for load calculations.
For heating, two heating numbers are published, 99% and 99.6%, meaning that the air temperature at which the data is tabluated will be at or above that temperature 99% or 99.6% of the time. Using these numbers, "outdoor design" happens 1% of the time or less.
Cannot recall enough of your past posts to assess your DIY capabilities.
Neighbor across the street came over with similar problem 2 months ago. Had a minimal outage, but his wife also did not like the 'old' looks of the existing furnace in the garage. Suggested to him* that when he has time he buy a 95% eff. furnance online and install it himself. He'd gotten bids in the $8K range for a new furnace; vs. buying a $1K Goodman on-line (various sources). (BTW, Goodman are OK, lots of vendors like to badmouth them as they don't have the advertising overhead of others, but are a good product). Think anyone can use an extra $7K?? His immediate problem was only a blown fuse as a result of changing a thermostat.
Concur with the previous post, fix what you got with a surplus part and decide what to do later in a 'non-panic' mode. Panic modes lead to big $$ losses.
* (he is a power company employee, but his only gas experience is reading meters when he has to fill in for vacations)
I concur wholeheartedly my friend. My furnace went out this year and I did some shopping online and also found the goodman online for about that price.
I wanted to get some information before I even called the furnace guy. Fortunately we had an amana furnace that was still under warranty and a really great local heating and air conditioning company that was more than willing to work with me.
After I pointed out what I thought were holes in the heat exchanger (despite the pilot not igniting being the problem for the service call) he confirmed that the furnace needed to be replaced.
I informed him that I had shopped online and wanted to do the installation myself and asked him if he could come anywhere close to the online price. He said he would be happy to work with me and to let him contact the manufacturer about the warranty issue, turns out it was replaced under a pro rated warranty like a battery at a discount so he was able to beat the online price, and he agreed to let me do the grunt work as long as he could come to fire it up for the first time and make sure everything was properly installed and adjusted.
The majority of the job was very straightforward and uncomplicated, but having a professional perform first start up was essential in my opinion, and my skillset is very high in this area. First because I don't have a manometer to properly adjust the regulator in the gas valve for the conversion from natural to propane, second i don't have the expertise to properly perform the fine tuning such as actually performing a load test on the thermostat wiring to set the heat anticipator on the thermostat. ( I would just read the manual and set it where the manufacturer recommends ), Third because of the warranty involved it had to installed by a professional.
We rent this house, as we moved here for work a couple of years ago. The landlords are very nice people and the husband got cancer. its a small town, and like a lot of americans (myself included) these people were one serious illness or injury away from bankruptcy. They didn't have the money to fix the furnace. He asked me if we could pay for it and take it out of the rent cause they just didn't have the money and I told him I would do that and not charge for my labor to install it. I told the heating contractor the story (he knew of the landlords) and he was more than willing to help.
Anyway I found out that while the amana furnace is very good it is over twice the price of the goodman unit and manufactured at the same place by the same company, I don't know if it is the same exact assembly line but...and while you may not have the same level of cooperation I received because of my extenuating circumstances, it shouldn't be impossible to hire a heating contractor to properly set up and start a furnace after you install the sheet metal, plumbing and wiring. A heating contractor may want a premium to do that, but it should be less than $7,000 dollars. You should be prepared to have him charge a premium for any corrections needed if your installation is less than professional.
I've managed to get the temp up to 49F (probably right around the thermostat<G>) and I've started covering troublesome windows w/wool rugs, so that should cut down on "drafts", if the weather takes a turn for the worse. What am I saying?!?!?!? It's JANUARY in IL, of COURSE it will take a turn for the worse. My house is a SEARS house, approx 1930. The original furnace was coal fed gravity (I still have the coal flap on one of the outside basement windows), which was later converted to natural gas. The original furnace was replaced in 1990 w/appropriate ductwork. I have no idea if the guy did proper measurements or anything. I DO know that he was called back because the metal vent going up the chimney was starting to rust inside. He fixed that. In 2002, I had this same issue occur and the technician was able to get a new motor. He also suggested that I schedule a "cleaning" checkup of the furnace. The estimate for replacing the motor is 560USD, plus the 89USD diagnostic fee. Buck was able to find the motor (based on my model#s) in CO (assuming it's the right one) for approx 300USD. I agree that I should make a logical, rational decision based on the house etc but it's tough to do in the cold. I think the HVAC companies know that. Not to mention that furnaces never seem to quit in the summer...I've passed on your comments to Buck (brother, dear) and will be talking to a few companies come Monday.
If I can't have fur, then I could use a Mega or Powerball win.
There is, I believe, a difference in the materials used in the secondary heat exchanger in the Amana vs the Goodman. I don't know how significant that point is, though.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Generally agree with other posts. If the motor is the only thing wrong and you have no other evidence that the furnace is otherwise on its last leg, why replace it? That is just a HVAC guy trying to make more bucks and play it safe by saying ... ya know if you replace the entire furnace, you won't have to worry whether the old one will still provide service. Yeah, well duh. If he doesn't offer other supporting evidence, then don't take his word for it ... get other opinions if you can. Especially from someone that doesn't have an interest in it one way or the other.
A high efficiency furnace will work ... if you want to pay the bucks ... and I wouldn't stop you ... if you can afford one when you replace it ... by all means do so. If your annual bill is large ... absolutely ... do it (WHEN/IF you swap out).
IMO - Lennox tends to be at the top of the heap ... many others are roughly equal in quality .... York, Trane, Carrier, Rheem/Bryant (which I understood to be Carrier products w/ other names) have fairly close quality and perform well.
I'd just change the motor this time around.
"let's not even discuss trying to take a shower."
Well, they say a picture is worth a thousand word discussion...
;)
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
"let's not even discuss trying to take a shower."
Well, they say a picture is worth a thousand word discussion...BwahahahaHA. Running thru the house in 4 layers of sweatshirts, gloves, sweatpants & felted wool booties does not a charming picture make. And let's just say body parts that I didn't KNOW could have goosebumps, had goosebumps<G>.
70F. Deeeeeeliciousssss.
You know, it would be nice if we could copy text while in the reply mode. I lost a detailed reply and could not save it.
Your existing furnace is 19 years old, which is past the halfway point for newer *properly installed* furnaces. That is something to keep in mind.
If the 1990 installation did not include duct renovations, a load calculation, setting gas pressures plus temperature rise, or properly sizing the return/filter(s)... then there is reason to suspect a cracked heat exchanger.
Replacing parts without a thorough inspection of the heat exchanger would be foolish. A thorough inspection with a borescope/camera and removal of the blower assembly takes time and costs money... money that eats into the cost of a new furnace.
If the then new induced draft furnace was vented into an unlined masonary chimney in 1990, there is a whole new set of problems that need to be addressed. Condensation in the unlined masonary chimney can cause issues with draft inducer assemblies in addition to destroying the chimney from the inside out.
Going to a 90+% furnace can eliminate some of those issues, but then you will have an orphaned water heater vent to address... which likely will require a small liner or a new PVC vent water heater.
Properly installing/venting induced draft appliances into existing masonry costs money and it isn't easy to do it right. Hack installers will not mention the issues in order to lowball the job. Hack customers with the "I won't be here long" attitude won't pay for it, leaving the problems for the next owner that will likely blame the HVAC guy.
Manufacturers have detailed checklists for masonry chimney venting approval, and special dilution hood vent kits, chimney liners, inspections by "qualified persons" are all mentioned. These costs can close the gap when considering an upgrade to a 90% furnace.
The upgrade to a variable speed motor will pay for itself much more quickly than going from an 80 to 90 in gas savings if the 80% vent install is right.
The quality of the installation is far more important than the name on the cabinet.
The quality of the installation is far more important than the name on the cabinet.
Inducer motors are pretty durable, and there is the possibility that something else is keeping it from working.
There is more money in equipment replacement than repair, and commissioned "techs" aka salesmen know this... especially when it is cold inside.
You should go to http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/ and take a look there.
I had a Rheem Modulating furnace recently installed and am quite satisfied. The people on hvac-talk seem to be happy with it.
But, they will also tell you that the installation is more important than the furnace. A proper installation requires a heat-loss calculation for proper sizing, making sure that the existing ducting is adequate, and the installation of the new furnace of course.
I doubt any homeowner will replace the ducts on a furnace replacement so that might be a moot point.
For the heat-loss calculation, too many contractors base the size on the existing furnace and they tend to oversize the unit. Let's face it, you won't complain if it's oversized but you will if it's undersized. An oversized unit will not be as efficient and comfortable as a properly sized furnace.
A lot of contractors and manufacturers will try to sell you a unit based on noise level. While the dB level of the furnace itself might be low, the sound of the air blowing through the ducts may not so you might not notice too much difference.
With the modulating furnace (and matching thermostat), the unit fires between 40% and 100% in 5% increments. On really really cold days, it could conceivably run constantly at 40%.
As for the rebates, I don't know the status in the USA. Here in Canada, I needed to get an energy audit first at a cost of $350. That will give me about $1000 rebate for the furnace and other rebates for toilet, window, door, insulation, and other improvements. I would not have been able to get the audit in time if i required an emergency replacement of the furnace.
Edited 1/4/2009 3:12 pm ET by Chucky
BTW, If you go to hvac-talk.com, DO NOT even infer you could possibly be doing any of the work yourself.......
That's right. They are more than happy to help the homeowner who needs information but they will not help the DYI who plans on doing the work himself/herself.
Amen to that. Not only are they unhelpful - they are rabidly hostile. I suppose they will eventually learn that an average person (didn't want to use "Joe") can also do home HVAC work.
Eventually, they will understand that consumers are not necessarily idiots and that HVAC work is not brain surgery.
Some outstanding advice here.
Just one little bit to add in the eventuality that you replace your furnace.
I live in the Seattle area and burn oil. I've replaced two furnaces both for the same reason, holes in the heat exchanger, the primary life limiting element of a furnace. Last new furnace I bought was a Lennox. The first time the tech was out for the yearly maintenance he said, oh new furnace, why didn't you buy a Thermopride? I said I thought they were all pretty similar. He says, generally, but the heat exchanger in the Thermopride is twice as thick. I says, AARRRGH!!
He worked for Glendale heating which is a Lennox dealer but also sell Thermopride. They didn't install or sell me this particular furnace. I have no love for any particular brand, just looking for lasting value. Buying a furnace never seems to be at a convenient time so I was bugged I didn't get the most long lasting unit out there.
So, another name to investigate when you look into replacement. http://www.thermopride.com/
- ken
I live in the Seattle area and burn oil
Thought everybody in Seattle (those on Seattle city light) got rid of oil in the 70's and 80's already.
Thought everybody in Seattle (those on Seattle city light) got rid of oil in the 70's and 80's already.
There are a <!----><!---->LOT<!----> of oil burners here and we are on City Light. My street like many doesn't have a gas line.<!----><!----><!---->
I bought and demolished the falling down rotting neighbor house last year and am thinking about a heat pump for its replacement. But in this older blue collar neighborhood there are few of them around.<!----><!---->
Were you thinking of septic tanks? those still around, too ; ) - ken
No, was thinking of heat.
I'm in Renton, even here with PSE over 10 cents kW-hr heat pump makes sense over even Nat gas, own system is an air-air for when it is over 46F and a GSHP when it gets colder. I put additional ducting in own house in the 80's as I got all kind of free ducts from people tearing out the ducts and actually converting to simple resistance heat (3X more costly than HP to run) in the late 70's - probably wish they still had the ducts. 3 years ago converted son's house in Kent to Heat pump for 90% of run time. Mid-December is the first time it was cost effective for him to run NG vs the HP.
If you have the skill set to DIY your own heat pump, it will pay for itself in 3 or 4 years, then it is all 'profit'
If you have an area where your ducting is near an outside wall, you can install what is called a 'packaged HP' where everything is outside, which is what I did with my house when I switched from resistive heat when power rates went above 21 cents kW-hr. You DO NOT need an EPA freon license to install a packaged HP.
I'm out of town alot, but if you want details or see how I installed my packaged heat pump a few years back (all DIY naturally), e-mail me and we can try to get together.
You should also check out what rebate deals city light may have.
Thanks for everyone's advise. I'm going to buy the part (gulp) and set up appointments w/a couple of HVAC places to get an idea of what a new furnace will cost. It will be easier to make a rational decision when my toes & fingers aren't cramping because of the cold (I would make an awful spy...talk about caving under torture).One of the companies on my list sounds extremely promising. He says that one type of system won't fit all houses, so he doesn't limit himself to only selling one thing. Approx 2% of his clientelle are, ummm radical environmentalists, people who don't want traditional anything. Totally off the grid. I'm not THAT bad but I'd like something that will cut heating/cooling costs without costing more than I paid for the house. I will check to see if he also installs closed cell foam (one of the posts I read here REALLY impressed the heck out of me).
If I can't have fur, then I could use a Mega or Powerball win.
Since you have decided to take a little time to evaluate, I recommend that whoever you approach for recommendations be asked for references. Find out what some of the environmental radicalists think of the product and work they paid for.
It's kins of like looking at product ratings on Amazon. I find it immensely helpful in decisionmaking that results in an impact on my wallet.
In the 30 years I've been 'in the business', I've never heard of Thermopride. I've focused more on commercial than residential, though, but I thought I'd heard of them all.
"Thermo Pride markets a line of residential and commercial gas and oil furnaces and central air conditioners. Thermo Pride is owned by Burnham Holdings, a publicly-held company (OTOX: BURCA) headquartered in the United States. Burnham Holdings has eight brands of HVAC equipment, including Burnham Hydronics, New Yorker, Governale, Thermo Pride, Crown, Burnham Commercial, Bryan Boilers, and Thermal Solutions."This gives a history of brands.http://www.johnmills.net/work/history.htmlDon't know who runs this site.But there is a list on the left of many brands and clicking on them gives the manufacture.http://www.furnacecompare.com/furnace_ratings.html.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I hear that! It was a surprise to me, too! The tech was admant about them. If i recall it right, he said the exchanger on my lennox was 1/8 steel and was 1/4 on the thermopride. Oh, well. - ken
Of course, the heavier steel will be less efficient.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
heavier steel will be less efficient
R rating of that extra 1/8" of steel is 0.0004 !! (no, there is not a decimal error). Film coefficient at temp and forced air is about what, say 1.8? Hit on efficiency is to drop from 96% to 95.979%
Worse nit picking than my comments on $$ to heat a gallon of water. <G>
Happy puppy dance! I have heat!It took Buck about 45min to an hour to install (I watched, so learned quite a bit). The inducer motor that I purchased was actually a kit and had everything that you needed (well except for tools<G>).Now to find out how much I need to save to afford a new furnace...
50F and rising.
It will be at least an arm and perhaps a leg or two. On other hand, if you had some acreage, you could harvest the trees and feed a wood burning stove. : ) Good luck with the powerball ticket.
(sadly) It all comes down to acreage again, doesn't it?
50F and rising.
Do your local research and get a second opinion. I know this is hard to do when you have no heat.
I would just replace the defective part at this time and start some serious research. If you make the next decision concerning the furnace the right decision, that alone will pay for installing the failed part at this time. Installing a new furnace in the middle of winter makes for a situation that is ripe for abuse.
Once your heat is working, you will be in a position to make a rational decision. Then, if you find the best possible furnace for your situation, you can have it installed in the summer when the prices are more reasonable.
Don't let yourself be pushed to the wrong decision. It may be better to invest in a few days in a warm motel while you sort out the information.
You are the "decider" at this point. Once you agree to do what someone else suggests, that role goes to the individual who stands to gain the most from a maximum expenditure of your cash (or credit, as is usually the case).
IMO, the higher efficiency furnaces haven't really been around long enough to get a good feeling for life expectancy.
But at 18 years, yours isn't exactly a spring chicken.
As someone noted, quality of installation is more important than brand name.
The more I've learned about heating and combustion as a home inspector (and in my training as a certified carbon monoxide and combustion analyst) the less enthusiastic I am about DIY furnace installations.
It's hard enough getting a good and safe installation form "the pros."
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
That is a very minor problem. If there is nothing else wrong with your furnace, the guy is trying to sell you a furnace for no reason.
Many of those motors require oil to survive more than a few years. You should check on that and do it yearly.
That problem should be fixed in under an hour.
Good point. If the problem with the motor is that it's bound up then often it can be freed up and you can get a few more months or years out of it by simply oiling it.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Bingo!
I haven't looked at a Goodman in several years, but back then the heat exchanger looked like pie tin metal. Scared me away.
Maybe they have changed over the years.
I worked for an outfit that sold Goodman amongst other products (Weil-McLain, Wirsbo, York/Coleman, Rehau), up until 2006. What I found out about Goodman (selling parts for various brands and warranty evaluations) is that Goodman copies other manufacturers very well. The do not advertise or develop new products on their own and they use a little thinner metal in some places. The fans, control boards, heat exchangers, inducer blowers, ingitors, switches, etc are MOL the same as everyone elses, when you compare the same version of product.
In my opinion, the reason Goodman has a bad rep is 1) Janitrol and 2) they are the cheapest product and therefore the choice of every hack that can get them and the crappy installations that most of these wannabe's get away with would make any product by any manufacter perform like poo. I had to give these miorons a bunch of free igniters that somehow mysteriously failed on regular basis. They beat the heack ouf these things. The $1500 furnaces get handled a little more delicately than the $300 units.
I have a "high end" furnace (a Heil, 125M, variable speed, 2-stage LP) in my house that has been in service for 8 years and have had to replace some pressure switches on it and this season, blow out the pilot feed tube. I also have a small Goodman that has been in service for almost as long, and with the exception of sooting up the heat exchanger (long story for another time), have had no trouble what so ever.
Goodman claims to make a "better" heat exchanger.
http://www.goodmanmfg.com/Home/Products/GasFurnacesHighEfficiencyUpTo95AFUE/MultipositionConvertible95AFUEGMH95/tabid/228/Default.aspx
I got the 70,000 btu 95% unit to replace an old 70,000 70% that couldn't heat a cold house in 30 minutes. Wow! This thing is definitely oversized. Thankfully it's a 2-stage so I can reset the dip switches.
$920 http://www.alpinehomeair.com/viewproduct.cfm?productID=453057484
OB
The last Goodman I looked at was over seven years ago. Our local supply house was selling them like mad. When we looked at one tha had been uncrated back in the warehouse I was not impressed. Light gauge metal everywhere, including the heat exchanger, and some pretty weak looking spot welds and folded seams.
We installed HVAC units in our power plants back then, so we needed something that would stand up to a pretty hostile environment. Trane, York, and Carrier had a life expectancy of < 10 years and they were substantily heaver built units. With most of them we lost cabinets before we ever experienced any heat exchanger failure.
I don't think that would have been the case with Goodman. Even with the price being low enough to buy two or three of them for the same $$ as a"brand named" unit we stayed away from them. Labor cost and the black eye we would have gotten from the short life cycle and change outs just wasn't worth it.
As I said earlier, they have likely improved over the years, but you and I both know that you get what you pay for even in HVAC equipment. You can buy cheap and with carefull installation, maintenace and care and strectch the life of the unit over the norm, but you are still going to replace it before you would a better unit that recieves similar care. Care which very few resdential units ever recieve, and that is why I reccomend mid price or better units when ask.
Think of your situation as saving up Carbon credits. Wait long enough and you'll have some extras that you can sell off to the wasters around town.
your furnace is 19 years old....time to get rid of it.....get a new condensing furnace 90 plus efficiency....Trane 3 stage is best with a variable speed fan motor.....Carrier is also up three in quality.....also make sure you change the thermostat to a 3 stage heating stat.....preferably the honeywell or trane touh screen made by honeywell....good luck.....
your furnace is 19 years old....time to get rid of it
Not a firm and fast rule, some of the oldest gas furnaces are nearly 'true lifetime' pieces of machinery, even if sold by sears.
I remember watching the install of Mom's furnace in 1952. A Sears HOMART.
Last inspected 2 years ago with near full disassemby - no repair needed except the rubber bushings on the fan motor, never any other repairs except fan belts and filters!! They DID make them better in the 'good old days'!. The HE is stainless, slight discoloration after 55 years, no cracks, looked GOOD. Pop installed a secondary HE on the flue, so probably is near 90 % eff, just below condensing, just shy of the 90.3% theoretical without condensing flue gasses. The old pilot light is shut off once the heating season ends. Thermostat is an old bulls eye honeywell, automatic setback at night by an 84 YO 'controller' that is still going strong <G>
Mom's 84, for her house, a 96% furnace even at under $1000 wholesale/DIY cost (retail is what, over $5K?) free install for her would never repay the minimal cost without even more drastic NG price increases. ($30 year savings in NG, interest on $1000 lost @ 3% = $30).
OK, so that attitude is not PC 'green', to quote a famous dem congressman, "so what".