Replies

1. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 08, 2003 06:24pm | #1

   You did not give us much information to go on.

   How much the room going to be used? What energy sources do you have? How well insulated?

   If electric rates are "reasonable" and the place is well insulated and not used 24x7 then baseboard heat would be a reasonable choice.

   If you have gas then a vented fireplace or heater would good. Depends on how hard it would be to get vented.

1. 
   wolffdog | Jul 08, 2003 07:46pm | #2

   I have gas forced hot air heating.  The room will not be used 24/7, but I plan on putting a bathroom in, and having people stay there when visiting from out of town.  I am currently in the planning stages, and in terms of insulation, one posting on this site recommended 1" polystyrene insulation and no vapor barrier.  I am still looking into this.  I am also looking into a vented gas fireplace.

1. 
   DaveRicheson | Jul 11, 2003 02:50am | #3

   Check with you local utility (gas and/or electric) and see if they will do an energy audit for you. Some do it free or for a nominal charge. Compare the load calculations with your heating system capacity.  Depending on your findings, you may want to upgrade your existing unit so that it can handle the additional load of the finished basement.

   IMO basements are almost always left out of load calculations if they are done at all. Poor system design is probably my single biggest gripe about residential construction. No matter how good the builder is, or how many whistles and bells a home has, if the HVAC system isn't designed correctly, the house is never comfortable to live in.

   End of rant.

   Hire a pro and get a system designed that will work for you 24/7/365. Your family, your guest, and the next owner of the house will love you for it.

   Dave

1. 
   wolffdog | Jul 11, 2003 05:27am | #4

   Thanks Dave.  I'll check with my local utility.  In the mean time I was speaking with a heating contractor who gave me a possible solution.  I didn't think that I could put a gas fireplace in my basement because of the expense of running a vent pipe above the roof line, and then boxing the pipe.   I am reluctant to use a ventless unit despite the safe record.  Here is the solution.  I plan on replacing my hot water heater as it is 15 years old , and since it is in the middle of the remodel project I need to move it.  I plan on buying a power vented unit because of the location. This will free up the chimney that the water heater currently uses and will allow me to use a B-vent firepalce to heat the basement.

1. 
   darrel | Jul 11, 2003 05:42am | #5

   Crazy idea...can you heat a basement hydronically with a combo water/heater furnace?

2. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 11, 2003 05:30pm | #7

   Some of the fire places can be side vented. Of course that does not work too well under ground <G>. But I think that you can go up and then out the side of the house. Not sure, but that might be an option.

   Also there might be power vents available for them.

3. 
   rjw | Aug 02, 2003 12:47pm | #13

   I am reluctant to use a ventless unit despite the safe record. 

   Safety record?  What safety record is that? Do you mean the large print in the ads, or the small print which tells you not to use it in bedrooms, and not to use it as a primary heat source (your intended use - primary heat source for the basement) or the small print that tells you to open a window whenever it's in use?

   Or maybe you're thinking about the oxygen depletion sensor?  Great idea - lack of oxygen can be a cause of significant amounts of CO.  Not the only cause, of course, but as they're taking you to the hospital because of the CO caused by flame impingement, you probably won't care that the "oxygen depletion sensor" didn't do squat for you; you'll probably be unconscious, or maybe dead.

   And shoot, if "oxygen depletion sensors" are such a great idea, why the heck do we bother to vent furnaces, water heaters, and boilers?  They have 'em to!  (It's just that we call 'em pilot lights on those types of units!?!)

   Safety record?  Pfooie.

   Here is the solution.  I plan on replacing my hot water heater

   Ahhh!  "Quid malburg in plano, Consternation turns to illumination!"

   Use the water heater as a source of hot water for baseboard heat.  JLC has had articles on it, although I don't know it they are still available for fee on their site.

   _______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

2. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 11, 2003 06:24pm | #8

   "MO basements are almost always left out of load calculations if they are done at all."

   I am on a hillside and have a two storey house with the first story slab on grade. One side is at grade. Then 2 ends are 1/2 at grade the other 1/2 have a 4ft foundation wall.

   The backside of the house has a 12ft foundation wall and behind that is the garage with a basement under it. The garge is 1/2 story above the 2nd story level. And the main enterance is on the garage level and you go down into the house.

   However, except for the entrance the layout is normal. First floor is the kitchen, dinning, living room and the 2nd floor is bedrooms.

   I had to go throuh 5-7 HVAC contractors until I could get on that would properly treat the 1st floor. They all saw the small amount that it was in the ground and the comment was "well stick a couple of vents in the ceiling to heat the 'BASEMENT'".

   I finally found one that would put in two separate units. But they made the mistake of grossly oversizing the unit for the 1st floor by about 2 times.

   Actually it is not too bad as the ducts are in the slab and there is enough thermo mass that the temp stays constant. But the blower is that I have to put out sea anchors whenever it comes on <VBG>.

1. 
   DaveRicheson | Jul 13, 2003 01:13am | #9

   5-7 must be the standard search. I finaly found my design company on no.8. My house is a long ranch with a walkout basement. Orientation is 10 degrees west of true north south and the south wall is a lot glass. Large open spaces on the first floor and all doors wil have working transoms. Primary heat is a wood burning stove on each floor and passive solar.

   Of the first seven HVAC contractors two sized it over the phone, two I wouldn't leave the prints with. The other three called back in two days and said they were finished. When I picked up the prints and proposals I politely told each one that what they offered was not going to work. All three missed the lower walkout load by  at least 30% and did not provided for the load shift from summer to winter.

   The archy and the passive solar design engineer ran all the calculation when we had the house designed. I took thier report with me when I picked up each set of prints. I had made it clear to each contractor that I was willing to pay seperately  for the design phase, and would provide the report for comparrison after they had submitted thier proposals. Only one of the three had a program for HVAC load calculations and he admitted that he did not ussually run it on basements because " basements don't add much to the unit size, and we always oversize them anyway".

   I'll start a thread when I get contractor #8s calculations, specifications and proposal back, so anyone interested can read and take shots at it.

   Come to think of it, load calculations  would ba good FHB article. Hey Andy, how about it?

   Dave

2. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 13, 2003 06:16pm | #10

   "Come to think of it, load calculations would ba good FHB article. Hey Andy, how about it?"

   JLC does on on HVAC stuff every once in a while. The recently had one on the high pressure retro fit.

   I have not had time to read it. But the ones in the past seemed to be enough on heating loads and duct sizing to to at possibly do a simple tract ranch, but certain enough information to have to do sanity checks.

   The other unusal thing that I have is that only the upstair system has AC. That was by choice as I like on a lake and in the summer I am either outdoors or upstairs (office during the day). And enough cool air "falls down" to keep the lower level comfy, but not so comfy that you don' want to go outside.

   In a couple of years I need to replace my systems. This was orginally done in 79 and of course things have changed since them. But used basic furnaces, but a high SER, for the time, AC; I think that it was a 10.

   They just started doing electronic pilots with motorized dampeners to reduce heat loses up the flue when the unit was not one.

   I was not sure of the techology and so I opted for "standard" units, but up them in a "sealed air" with outside air. But the builder missed some details and it is not really sealed towards the house air.

   Before I replace them I need to do a lot of research. But I am think of the possibility go with a zoned system and a single high eff heat pump and then a 80% eff gas unit for low temp back up.

   This is going to be interesting when I start calling HVAC people that are just going to want to size everything based on what I have.

3. 
   billyg83440 | Jul 14, 2003 10:23pm | #11

   Was over at a friends house once. When the furnace came on it sounded like a small jet engine warming up. I knew he'd just replaced the furnace, and being the Tim Taylor type, put in a big furnace. Way way way too big for his 1000 sq. ft. house.

   He said when they first switched it on it blew pennys out of the ductwork and bounced them off the ceiling. Maybe he was exagerating. . . . some, but that sucker sure blew some serious air out at you.<G>

2. 
   GUNN308 | Jul 11, 2003 07:03am | #6

   Have you tried to balance you ducts for optimal performance for your second floor try damping your first floor vents to force more to second floor experiment for awhile and see if this helps.

3. 
   hasbeen | Aug 02, 2003 07:14am | #12

   Check into electric thermal storage units.  They are getting quite popular around here.  Qualifies you for "off-peak" rates.  Here the off peak rate is 4.6 cents per KWH.  The units are quiet and don't need any venting.

   Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.