Heating options for a detached garage
I’m in the process of converting a one car garage into an art studio for my wife. As part of the conversion I will be installing electric, insulating the walls and ceiling, installing a floor over the existing slab(laminate or ceramic). I need suggestions on how to heat. The garage is about 180 sq ft in size with a max ceiling height of 10 ft. I’ve priced out solar and at $5k it’s way too expensive. Radiant heat is an option but if I want to use my existing water heater the water will have to travel about 70 ft to the garage. Are plug in electric panels an option ( I’ve seen some from econoheat that claim 3 cents/hr to operate per unit (I will need 2) which will cost me about $700-$1000 annually to operate. Are there any other more affordable options.. I’m open to all ideas including solar, electric, anything…
Thanks
Replies
Uh, er, are you in New Mexico or Minnesota?
New York city
All
Beware
This is a pantry raid from the guys at JLC. How do I know?
There aren't any detached garages in New York City.
LOL.
Just kidding. But truly I lived in Brooklyn for a short while. I rarely even saw a stand alone house not to mention with a detached garage.
Insulate the floor. 2" of styrofoam.
Insulate the walls to R-19 or better. Do a search here for the Mooney wall.
Insulate the ceiling to R-38 or better. R-50.
Then use whatever is easiest to get power or fuel out to it.
I would say your best choice is electrical. When I was out there heating oil seemed to be the most common choice.
Insulate well and forget about what heat delivery system will be cheapest to run. If it is insulated well your cost of installation will be a bigger factor than your savings from one system to another.
Rich
That's what I would say too: Insulate the hell out of it then heat it with a candle. An unfinished garage is a blank slate, insulation-wise, and you're probably not looking for elegant architecture, so all insulation options are open. If you want to do it for cheap I'd go with double walls and lots of fiberglass in the walls, deep cellulose in the ceiling.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Thanks for the advice and laughs... You recommended styrofoam for the slab... Is this a special kind for slabs? How effective is it, does it keep the floor at room temp... I fully agree to insulate the heck out of the garage and use the cheapest upfront cost form of heat. The other alts on the discussions carry high upfront costs I don't believe I will recover especially with the price of ng these days.. Thanks again...
gh2
I would use XPS or what we call Dow board (blue). Or Owens-Corning calls theirs Formular (pink). I have also seen yellow.
EPS is usually white bead board, at 1/2 the R-value.
Here are a couple of links.
Insulating a basement floor http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Protected/021169078.pdf
comparing rigid insulation
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/PDF/Protected/021181088.pdf
If you insulate well you can heat the building with 110V baseboard heat or a $20 space heater from WalMart.
God Bless and I'm glad you have a sense of humor.
In the city you are going to run up some big upfront costs to get gas out there.
Rich
might i suggest limiting the number and size of the windows
Might I suggest having plenty of windows for daylight? While your intent is much respected and appreciated (I assume to limit heat loss), a good workplace is enhanced by good daylight, so there is possibly more to the situation than simply 'heat loss' else we would all live in windowless houses. Arbitrarily minimizing windows may be at the expense of daylight. Arbitrarily putting in lots of windows may be at the expense of energy. .... just a little different point of view.
Yeah, the place needs windows, and good ones. Nothing exotic, but well-sealing, double-pane windows, and they should be able to open.(Also need to think about AC in the summer.)
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Yes I agree I failed to mention in my original post that the space will have 4 small windows (2 on each side of the roof) plus two windows on the southern wall..
The roof windows (skylights?) complicate the ceiling insulation options somewhat.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Yes they are skylights...In what way will they complicate insulation options?
Just that you can't do a straight-forward flat ceiling with blown insulation above without boxing in the skylights.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Got it... Is blown in the only way to get the necessary r value?
No, but it's the cheapest and generally the simplest.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
Windows ... gable ends or skylights? Skylights on the south spell trouble ... w/ a capital T and it rymes w/ P ... etc. Seriously. If you are considering installing a skylight on a south facing roof ... I'd encourage you to consider placing both on the north side. That summer sun could be a killer if that skylight is otherwise unshaded! If it is well shaded ... then by all means ... have at it.
Helps if I read ... so skylights on east/west sloped roofs. Pretty much same issue. If neither is shaded, take measures to minimize the sun impact. Are these skylights already in place? A good alternative would be do mini dormers to provide the light but help control the solar gain.
Edited 1/27/2009 8:06 am ET by Clewless1
Edited 1/27/2009 8:07 am ET by Clewless1
I've used grey XPS, too. It's all the same except the 'standard' white polystyrene which is expanded, not extruded.
i'd buy a little electric overhead heater,just hang and plug in,won't be cheap for electricty but..........
next i might look at a window air cond with a heat pump,probably would be cheaper than the unit heater and kill 2 birds with one stone.
propane or gas avail?
YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'T
MOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THE
DUCT TAPE.
Both gas and propane (tanks) avail
There are insulated piping designed just for delivering hot water to distant buildings.
And people have done their own.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Are they available in home depot or Lowes
The insulated pipes aren't.And I don't remember the details of how the DIY versions have been done.But I think that what they have done is dig a trench and line 3 sides with styrofoam, lay the tubing, then add a foam cover and back fill..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
There are any number of small gas direct vent heaters.
Some are small wall mounted. Others are "fireplaces".
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
>>>$700-$1000 annually to heat 180 sq. ft. of living space?????!!!????
Something wrong with that calc. Unless you don't have a roof on the place....
Scott.
I didnt do the math but I thought the same thing.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Why not install a new electric water heater in the space?
I don't see how a 70 foot (really 140 foot) run of pipe outdoors will be practical for heat loss... and you will have to bury it below the frost line. You will need one pump to circulate your feeder loop from the existing WH to the garage because loop length is supposed to be around 300' total, and another pump + manifold for the garage floor loops... add in some mixing valves.. sounds like it is getting expensive.
If the water heater you want to connect to is supplying domestic hot water, you will have additional expenses connecting it to a hydronic heating system... if it is allowed in your area... you probably couldn't use a glycol loop, so if that water heater goes down and your buried pipes freeze- then what?
If the space is well insulated, and using a guess of 30 btu per square foot, that puts you at 5400 btu... 3.4 btu per watt is 1588W of resistance heat for that space.
You could put in a couple of two stage hydronic style electric baseboard heaters... add in an electric mat to go under the ceramic tile.
Will it be cost effective to operate? You will have to figure that out.
If you do not put a radiant barrier under the tubing, you will waste energy trying to heat the old slab and ground below the tubing. You will need a new slab poured over the new tubing, or something like Warmboard.
Edited 1/25/2009 10:08 am ET by danski0224
I'm also in NYC and did something similar a few years back. We just used a Modine NG fired unit, relatively cheap and effective. As for the HW tank, I tend to agree with Danski, running a pipe 70' underground doesn't seem practical. I assume the HW is just for a sink, so a very small electric unit should suffice, or an on demand NG unit, though it will be more expensive. The link should give you some ideas. Good luckhttp://www.littlegreenhouse.com/accessory/heaters.shtml
Better double check your math for starters. $1,000 a year at 3 cents/hr/unit translates to 16,000+ hours ... twice the hours in a year. Also check the wattage of the unit and forget the sales hype about how much it will cost ... calculate it yourself using your own cost/kwh. At 3 cents/hour and if you spent say 15 cents/kwh, the unit would have to be about 200 watts. May or may not be right. My semi educated WAG would be that the unit would be at least maybe 500 watts.
Other options: if you have gas available: direct vent wall heaters like Mr. Hartman pointed out. Maybe a mini split HP? Radiant slab? do you have the space? You need say 2" insulation then say 3" of concrete. That is 5 inches ... can you spare it? Place for a small water heater (also gas fired?). How often will it be used?
I also agree w/ the other guy $700-1,000 bucks for heating that little space seems like a bit much.
It's hard to beat a small gas unit; get the type that passes through the wall. About the size of a window air conditioner, these units will heat the place in no time at all .... and you can turn the dial back to 55 when you're not there. That's the quickest, simplest way.
Redoing the floor? You're right to consider radiant heat .... but I'd let it have it's own boiler.
If it were me!
2" foam on the floor with overlapped 1/2 osb or plywood screwed together. Cover with foam mats from PEPBOYS. Or a thin pile carpet.
Seal the walls with caulk or foam to prevent drafts. Insulate the walls and ceiling with cells.
Heat with electric baseboard along both long sides. Both sides to reduce air currents. Moving air loses heat the quickest. Remember heat travels in all directions.
IMO your best bet would be gas or LP gas. Client just installed a "MILLER" unit in his detached 2 car garage in Saratoga, NY (cold). This unit was designed for RV's. He couldn't be happier, keeps the space, w/low end thermostat at 50*, working in the garage he cranks it up. Alot of people in up-state NY use these LP gas heaters intended originally for Dbl. wides etc.
Do you have nat gas out there? If so, have you sen the Reznor units? They're made for garage applications. They are basically baby hanging shop heaters.
They come in ambient combustion and sealed combustion models.
They start around $450 for the unit.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
i have a couple of those baby overheads.i gotta say i'm really dissapointed in them. i have a 75 btu in a 24x48 and a 45btu in a 24x24. they both struggle and both are the noisest heaters i have ever owned.it's the fans vibrating and rattling the sheet metal case,will drive you nuts.YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'TMOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THEDUCT TAPE.
WHY aint this thread merged with "miracle amish heater" thread YET????????
Interesting. How did you hang the units? Would isolating them possibly help? Did you ever complain to the manufacturer?
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I've never seen one of those overhead units that wasn't fairly noisy.
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness. -John Kenneth Galbraith
True, I wouldnt put one in my living room, but we are talking about a garage/work space.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
No we are talking about an art studio..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
one of the advantages to these units is that they can be hung directly to the ceiling with the attached brackets.i do think that is some of the problem. i keep thinking that i'll get some rubber bushings and remount the fan motor.
the noise it makes is a hmmmmmmmm.YOU ONLY NEED TWO TOOLS IN LIFE - WD-40 AND DUCT TAPE. IF IT DOESN'TMOVE AND SHOULD, USE THE WD-40. IF IT SHOULDN'T MOVE AND DOES, USE THEDUCT TAPE.
FWIW, I just bought a Modine Hot Dawg heater for my detached garage (48x28; cathedral cieling; 10' side walls; 2" pink board under slab; well insulated walls and cieling; caulked seams, foam around windows, etc.).
For a pricing idea, I paid $1,200 for the 60,000 BTU heater, thermostat, professionally installed and vented horizontally past soffit (ugly but easy and less costly install), gas was already to the exact spot and so was electrical.
Your art studio means spending a few hours a day in there every few days? All day every day? Big difference for heating bill, comfort of the heating source, etc. My only concern would be getting fresh air in the studio in the winter and eliminating moisture in summer. Would moisture be an issue for whatever art is being produced? Maybe a large window a/c unit in the summer would do it.
good luck--sounds like a fun project
60k btu would be huge overkill for the space discussed here.
The art studio space could be heated with a 1500 watt electric heater.
I wasn't suggesting he use 60k, he can see my space and his differ significantly. I was merely giving him an idea of cost which I had not seen posted yet. Also suggesting that humidity control and fresh air -and not just temperature-should be considered.
We put electric warmwire radiant heat in the mortar bed for the kitchen tile in our new ski cabin. WOW is it comfortable! The warmwire was not too expensive to buy and it is about 1000W for 150 sq ft. The tile guys charged me a bit more for the installation but even that was not too bad. Just that works to keep the whole kitchen/great room tolerable (OK the house is really well insulated but the room is big). California snow country is probably warmer than New York's freezes but the electric warm floor might be an easy solution to the heating.
Eric
Wife may like this small gas soapstone stove from the Woodstock Soapstone Co.
I installed the wood burning Fireview in my living room this fall and can't rave enough about the comfortable heat...Does take a while to get up to temperature though.http://www.woodstove.com/pages/gas_stove_mini.html
if it's insulated and sealed well... a 1500watt eclectic heater will run her out of there if left on...
i have an ok sealed 600sf space... 3 exterior walls one door and a few windows... and when it was 20 degrees outside (thats cold for us) it was very warm inside with one $25 1500watt heater with the fan... it's maybe 8-10" sq ?
@180sf.... a hairdryer should do... 4-5 100watt bulbs should get you halfway there
p
As others have said, insulate the hell out of the space.
Would you you be doing the work yourself or would you be hiring it out? Can you do electrical? Plumbing? Mechanical? Is electric already there? If so choose electric radiant, or baseboards, or electric water heater (but then you need circulator and piping). Do you have to run water to the garage? I'd think about Solartubes rather that skylights but that's just me.
You could try this outfit if you're looking for insulated pipe to run.
http://www.greenvalleyheating.ca/pdfs/DFLEX0404.pdf
They claim very little heat loss. If you have the gas or propane option close by you could always use a wall mounted Rinnai type heater or the like. http://www.alsheating.com/
They're very efficient, but do need electricity to run.
I think only you can decide how much work and money you want to put into this place.
Edited 1/30/2009 12:41 pm ET by fingers
Thanks for the info.. Yes I've done electrical, plumbing and mechanical from brand new construction (uncle's construction company)to upgrade/renovation .. I've decided to spend the xtra money to insulate and heat with electric.. thanks for the resource
Dont know if this has been mentioned, but look into a Mini-split. For around 1500$ installed, you can get Heat and A/C from a single unit. And you can do most of the installation yourself.